Troll UC shield build question


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Lair Larrikin

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Post Tuesday, 9th August 2016, 04:45

Troll UC shield build question

I'm playing a troll unarmed combat char and plan to use a shield plus probably heavy dragon armor. It seems like a fun build from what I'm reading here and there. I'm just a little confused by a couple of character dumps I'm looking at as a sort of guide where my skills / stats should end up. I have two different character dumps I'm looking at for troll UC + shield builds and they have wildly different endgame stats. Both characters are at xp level 27, but one character has Str 26, Int 9, Dex 23, and the other has Str 39, Int 42, Dex 29. The gear they are wearing doesn't seem to explain the huge difference between their stats (from what I can tell!). The char with the low stats is wearing a Str +4 and Dex +3 ring. The toon with the higher stats is wearing a Str -3, Dex +4, Int +5, Int +5 gear. How is the guy with -7 str (if you consider the -3 and +4 str for each toon) have 39 total str, while the other guy has 26?? Yes I know they probably spent their level up stats differently, BUT, he also has higher dex and VASTLY higher intelligence, which makes no sense. Even if you minus the +10 intel from the buffed stats he still has radically diff Int, Str and dex than the other guy. I'm just completely confused on how this is possible, and wondering how should my toons stats turn out at XL 27, like the super buff stats guy or the super low stats guy?

Links to each dump:

http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Piginabag/m ... 014458.txt wimpy stats

http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/ManMa ... 184020.txt uber stats

I'm sure it's something silly a newbie doesn't know but you all do! I'd appreciate some wisdom here thanks!
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Post Tuesday, 9th August 2016, 04:47

Re: Troll UC shield build question

2nd is chei worshipper, chei gives +15 to all stats at max piety

Lair Larrikin

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Post Tuesday, 9th August 2016, 04:54

Re: Troll UC shield build question

Ah! Haha, knew it would be something duh obvious to everyone else! Thanks. Wow, that's a good reason to go Chei! I was leaning towards Qazlal for the synergy with the shield, but now I may go Chei. I literally was standing at Qazlal altar in temple ready to hit p when I alt-tabbed out to see if anyone answered yet!

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Post Tuesday, 9th August 2016, 05:08

Re: Troll UC shield build question

Chei and Qazlal are both generally considered challenge gods. Chei prevents you from using two of the best escape options in DCSS, walk away from things and walk away from things while hasted. Qazlal makes a ton of noise, luring lots of enemies to you and making it very easy to end up in a big messy out of control fight. That said, trolls are a really powerful species and you can definitely win with either.
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Post Tuesday, 9th August 2016, 05:13

Re: Troll UC shield build question

Chei changes playstyle, yes. But that doesn't necessarily mean he's harder to win with.

Like Trog, who keeps you from using buff spells.

And newbies don't run away anyway.
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Post Tuesday, 9th August 2016, 05:16

Re: Troll UC shield build question

Newbies also tend to position poorly and take bad moves toward enemies. Chei punishes you extra hard for doing that.
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Lair Larrikin

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Post Tuesday, 9th August 2016, 05:26

Re: Troll UC shield build question

Ah, so what would you guys recommend as god choice for fairly new player playing a troll UC? I haven't chosen yet hahah took a break to eat some Ben Jerry's chunky monkey!! I wouldn't mind taking a god choice that didn't up the difficulty too much in other subtle ways, but works well with the troll UC build. Suggestions? I'm also leaning heavily towards going with transmutation for the nice synergy with blade hands, as well as few other utility spells based off of the spell choices the other two builds used.
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Post Tuesday, 9th August 2016, 05:45

Re: Troll UC shield build question

Makhleb. Also, you're a troll so you don't need blade hands (you have claws 3).
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Post Tuesday, 9th August 2016, 05:49

Re: Troll UC shield build question

Okawaru would be good for heroism (extra good with unarmed combat) and finesse. One of the easiest gods to play as well. Trog is great and easy to play, but you'll have to commit to not casting spells (this is not a bad decision by any means, but if you want to explore casting spells on this character then choose something else instead).

Other generally "strong" options would be Fedhas, Makhleb, Ru, Jiyva (good luck finding an altar), Pakellas, Hepliaklqana. I probably missed some.
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Post Tuesday, 9th August 2016, 05:54

Re: Troll UC shield build question

Hellmonk wrote:Qazlal makes a ton of noise, luring lots of enemies to you and making it very easy to....

...use Disaster Area ability to kill all that stuff at once. Really, it is very strong. My only fault with Qaz was luring all that Tomb:3 at me and pressing a c without necromutation. That amount of mummy curses brought me to ~15 hp in a moment of eye and then bennu pecked me.

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Post Tuesday, 9th August 2016, 06:09

Re: Troll UC shield build question

jazzadellic wrote:Ah, so what would you guys recommend as god choice for fairly new player playing a troll UC? I haven't chosen yet hahah took a break to eat some Ben Jerry's chunky monkey!! I wouldn't mind taking a god choice that didn't up the difficulty too much in other subtle ways, but works well with the troll UC build. Suggestions? I'm also leaning heavily towards going with transmutation for the nice synergy with blade hands, as well as few other utility spells based off of the spell choices the other two builds used.


There's no synergy at all with blade hands, since they replace your claws rather than adding to them. A troll using blade hands does the same damage as a human except that the troll probably has higher strength.

Blade hands still do a lot more damage than troll claws, but it also takes a lot more XP to get them usable. Trolls start with their claws from turn 1.

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Post Tuesday, 9th August 2016, 06:17

Re: Troll UC shield build question

genericpseudonym wrote:
jazzadellic wrote:Ah, so what would you guys recommend as god choice for fairly new player playing a troll UC? I haven't chosen yet hahah took a break to eat some Ben Jerry's chunky monkey!! I wouldn't mind taking a god choice that didn't up the difficulty too much in other subtle ways, but works well with the troll UC build. Suggestions? I'm also leaning heavily towards going with transmutation for the nice synergy with blade hands, as well as few other utility spells based off of the spell choices the other two builds used.


There's no synergy at all with blade hands, since they replace your claws rather than adding to them. A troll using blade hands does the same damage as a human except that the troll probably has higher strength.

Blade hands still do a lot more damage than troll claws, but it also takes a lot more XP to get them usable. Trolls start with their claws from turn 1.


Ah, great information everyone. Thanks for all the tips you probably saved me from making some bad choices. I don't really expect to get that far with my troll ;o) I have yet to get a single rune ;oP But it's nice to have a clearer picture what I would do with a troll UC build. If anyone else wants to toss in any other random tips for Troll UC build, I'll be glad to hear them thanks! My first attempt at a troll UC guy (probably my third DCSS game ever) didn't go very far. But then I had a game recently with a minotaur UC and it was the easiest game I've had yet (until he died miserably!). Which got me thinking that I should try another troll UC since they seem to be tailor made for the role. Thanks again. I'll be checking back from time to time as I play through to see if you all have any other great wisdom to share on this type of build!
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Post Tuesday, 9th August 2016, 14:45

Re: Troll UC shield build question

Okawaru and trog are also good for this-basically any god that would normally be good for a melee character.
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Post Wednesday, 10th August 2016, 03:25

Re: Troll UC shield build question

genericpseudonym wrote:
jazzadellic wrote:Ah, so what would you guys recommend as god choice for fairly new player playing a troll UC? I haven't chosen yet hahah took a break to eat some Ben Jerry's chunky monkey!! I wouldn't mind taking a god choice that didn't up the difficulty too much in other subtle ways, but works well with the troll UC build. Suggestions? I'm also leaning heavily towards going with transmutation for the nice synergy with blade hands, as well as few other utility spells based off of the spell choices the other two builds used.


There's no synergy at all with blade hands, since they replace your claws rather than adding to them. A troll using blade hands does the same damage as a human except that the troll probably has higher strength.

Blade hands still do a lot more damage than troll claws, but it also takes a lot more XP to get them usable. Trolls start with their claws from turn 1.


The great thing about a troll that goes blade hands is that you get to use your claws turn 1 and only branch into trasmutations once you have a soldid UC base, bypassing the transmuter earlygame. You also don't meld gloves. You do still lose your shield though.
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Post Wednesday, 10th August 2016, 14:50

Re: Troll UC shield build question

I don't see many situations when it is a good idea to go for Blade Hands with Tr. It has low Int and bad Tm aptitude, maybe with Sif Muna and staff of wizardry. With Chei you don't need Blade Hands since you have huge Str for damage and can go for other spells instead.

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Post Wednesday, 10th August 2016, 16:23

Re: Troll UC shield build question

Try Pakellas while it's still broken. Being able to use wands of healing, hasting, teleportation, enslavement, and paralysis pretty much whenever you want to is really powerful. You'll get evokable summons that you can use with boosted power. You get an early rod and the ability to boost it s power which can be nice or can be a game-changer.
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Post Wednesday, 10th August 2016, 16:30

Re: Troll UC shield build question

The only reason I can imagine for using blade hands on a troll is if you are planning to go with statue form eventually, you haven't found a shield, and you haven't found any decent body armor.

I think you're generally better off using a shield and one hand than to trade the shield's defense for more offense.
It's obviously a HUGE XP investment, and not worth the damage boost on its own.
And it's once again better to have the defense of a good body armor than to wear lighter armor to allow you to cast blade hands for the offensive increase.

"Going for statue form" itself is not generally a good idea, as far as surviving the 3 rune game. I like to do it sometimes because it's fun to do extended as a statue form troll, but you're weaker throughout the 3 rune game due to all the XP you're pouring into transmutations and earth magic.

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Post Thursday, 11th August 2016, 06:12

Troll UC shield build question

Ignore literally everything these good players have said, do not try pekallas, do not go hep, don't even go oka. Good gods yes, fun gods, definitely. But everyone and their mother knows, trog is the best God in the game for a nice 3 rune, " but... But you can't use magic" magic is for scrubs who want to be running around in a robe struggling with adders on D1. Trog offers you the best tools in the game and the for some unknown reason the devs decided that you should be able to have the best from turn one! Just pick berserker and tab away.

Benefits of trog:
-D1 berserk, monsters seem a bit hard? Just hit aa and their blood will be all over the dungeon walls
-Trogs hand, literally broken, you can pop 2 MR whenever you want, see an orb of fire? Trogs hand and put some Fr on (make sure you are using that nice anti magic executioners axe with 27 axe skill because you a bad ass mother fucker) free kill, don't even quaff a cure mutation, bask in your victory scars.
-Brothers in arms, a bunch of dudes givin you trouble in a kill hole? Call down an iron troll that looks so mad you swear somebody shat on his meat ration and let him deal with the masses.
-Weapons, literally gives you the best weapons for a 3 rune by the time you have cleared lair, what more do you want?
-Boats and hoes, that's right, if you are playing online all the specs will be so impressed with your ability to press the TAB button in succession on your keyboard, so impressed that the more wealthier specs will be inviting you on their yacht all day every day with the finest of escorts.

Disadvantages of going trog:
-You will probably learn very little tactics that will teach you about playing the game any other way besides a full Melee heavy armour tab lord.
-it will quickly turn into the most boring experience after your first win with trog.
-you are literally tellin people you are a base scrub online by playing trog with a newb race.
-your friends won't talk to you anymore.


Now what you want to do is you want to play a race that it is literally impossible to lose with, a good one is Minotaur as he has plus two in all the relevant skills you need, has a nice aux attack as well as accurately represents what a trog worshiper is, a brainless humanoid degenerate that has little intelligence and ferociously fights anything in sight without making preparations first or using any tactics(who needs kill holes when you are an axe guy )

There is also Gargoyle, cannot be poisoned so lair and early adders are free, cannot be petrified and stoned so no pesky deaths from those dumb mechanics, has resist negativity, has built in AC which is on top of all other sources (once had 71 AC, I went for a shield build just to add on to that, of course I fucking won), resist electricity so eels are free, resist rot, don't breath, have partial torment resistance, can fly, has a PHD in theoretical physics with post docs in Architecture, resist losing, the list goes.

Remember to only train 3 skills: weapon,fighting and armour, all other skills are irrelevant and you don't need them to with with this combo, burn every spell book as soon as you see them, spam trogs hand on the orb run, take on all of V5 without going up stairs and remember that Felid Chaos knights are for losers.
Last edited by CypherZel on Saturday, 20th August 2016, 18:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Thursday, 11th August 2016, 08:54

Re: Troll UC shield build question

If you want to win a shield using troll, obviously you should go TrFi. This is one of the easiest combos in the game and requires absolutely nothing special as far as strategy. Any god that's good for general melee characters other than maybe Gozag is going to be good. Just take whatever's early. Oka, yred, hep, trog, makh, nemelex, ely, zin, and pak are all good. I would not recommend fedhas because you'll easily roll over the early game anyway. You just want something that's going to shore up your midgame a little bit before you can get some reasonable AC going.
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Post Thursday, 11th August 2016, 13:06

Re: Troll UC shield build question

Oka is extra good for trolls, for two reasons. Heroism is a huge buff to uc. Plus, oka's gifts are more likely than usual to include something actually useful, like a dragon armor of some kind.

Trog is really good because he's trog of course, but as mr coolguy said, trolls don't really need much help in the early game, which is where trog is probably at his most helpful (of course he's really good throughout the whole game).
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Post Thursday, 11th August 2016, 13:24

Re: Troll UC shield build question

CypherZel wrote:Remember to only train 3 skills: weapon,fighting and armour, all other skills are irrelevant and you don't need them to with with this combo, burn every spell book as soon as you see them, spam trogs hand on the orb run, take on all of V5 without going up stairs and remember that Felid Chaos knights are for losers.
Also train dodging. Focus weapon skill(or unarmed).
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Post Thursday, 11th August 2016, 13:57

Re: Troll UC shield build question

CypherZel wrote:it will quickly turn into the most boring experience after your first win with trog.

Hey, speak for yourself.

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Post Thursday, 11th August 2016, 14:13

Re: Troll UC shield build question

BabyRage wrote:
CypherZel wrote:it will quickly turn into the most boring experience after your first win with trog.

Hey, speak for yourself.
Oh it's true. I streaking GrBe and even though I want to stop because it's so boring, I'm on a streak so I feel like I shouldn't.
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Post Thursday, 11th August 2016, 16:16

Re: Troll UC shield build question

Is it generally recommended to use a shield as a Troll? I have a TrMo going right now that found an early GDA, so defenses have been okay. Using a shield means you lose the offhand attack, is that a worthy tradeoff?

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Post Thursday, 11th August 2016, 16:37

Re: Troll UC shield build question

Well... trolls tend to suffer a bit on the defensive side, but since you found an early GDA, that's not nearly as much of a concern. That said, I personally would use a shield as well. You're correct that it's a bit of a trade off in terms of damage output, and not an insignificant one at that (I believe knowledgable people have said using a shield with UC costs you between 25-33% of your damage output, going off memory). But troll offense is incredible, so if anyone can afford to lose that damage, they can.

Of course, there's also the XP cost of the shield to consider, because you could spend that XP on more UC, throwing, dodging, armor, fighting, etc... trolls only need 9 skill to use a normal sized shield without penalties, but those 9 skill points are extra expensive due to bad troll apts.

So I guess what you should consider is whether your offense feels powerful enough to take a slight hit, whether your XP feels tight already, whether you feel sound defensively, and whether you've actually found a decent shield to use in the first place.

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Post Thursday, 11th August 2016, 16:49

Re: Troll UC shield build question

Well, Troll has -2 aptitude in Fighting/Armour/Dodging also so -2 Shields are not that extra expensive.

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Post Thursday, 11th August 2016, 17:45

Re: Troll UC shield build question

All good points. I decided to go for it - I took Donald's shield and it only took the XP from Vaults:4 to get up to Shields:9. I have a +5 slaying bonus so my offense was already pretty potent... if I find it lacking I'll just take the shield off again.

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Post Thursday, 11th August 2016, 19:56

Re: Troll UC shield build question

Shard1697 wrote:
CypherZel wrote:Remember to only train 3 skills: weapon,fighting and armour, all other skills are irrelevant and you don't need them to with with this combo, burn every spell book as soon as you see them, spam trogs hand on the orb run, take on all of V5 without going up stairs and remember that Felid Chaos knights are for losers.
Also train dodging. Focus weapon skill(or unarmed).


I purposeless didn't mention dodging for comedic value but yes you actually can very easily win those combos with only 4 skills but V5 will actually be a challenge. You can use a support skill if you want but I'm not sure what trolls altitudes look like, but if going trog it's either going to be a ranged weapon or evo.

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Post Thursday, 11th August 2016, 20:01

Re: Troll UC shield build question

MainiacJoe wrote:
BabyRage wrote:
CypherZel wrote:it will quickly turn into the most boring experience after your first win with trog.

Hey, speak for yourself.
Oh it's true. I streaking GrBe and even though I want to stop because it's so boring, I'm on a streak so I feel like I shouldn't.


Is that even a streak?

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Post Sunday, 14th August 2016, 18:28

Re: Troll UC shield build question

hermbot wrote:Is it generally recommended to use a shield as a Troll? I have a TrMo going right now that found an early GDA, so defenses have been okay. Using a shield means you lose the offhand attack, is that a worthy tradeoff?


The offhand punch is generally not considered important/strong enough to be worth giving up on the defenses from a shield.

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Post Monday, 15th August 2016, 16:05

Re: Troll UC shield build question

Well, I looked back over some old threads, and some random FSIMS showed shieldless UC doing about 15% more damage or so. It's certainly not negligible, but probably worth giving up for a decent shield. Of course, don't forget the XP investment that comes with a shield...

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Post Thursday, 18th August 2016, 04:03

Re: Troll UC shield build question

CypherZel wrote:Ignore literally everything these good players have said, do not try pekallas, do not go hep, don't even go oka. Good gods yes, fun gods, definitely. But everyone and their mother knows, trog is the best God in the game for a nice 3 rune, " but... But you can't use magic" magic is for scrubs who want to be running around in a robe struggling with adders on D1. Trog offers you the best tools in the game and the for some unknown reason the devs decided that you should be able to have the best from turn one! Just pick berserker and tab away.

Benefits of trog:
-D1 berserk, monsters seem a bit hard? Just hit aa and their blood will be all over the dungeon walls
-Trogs hand, literally broken, Orc priests are literally free kills now that you can pop 2 MR whenever you want, see an orb of fire? Trogs hand and put some Fr on (make sure you are using that nice anti magic executioners axe with 27 axe skill because you a bad ass mother fucker) free kill, don't even quaff a cure mutation, bask in your victory scars.
-Brothers in arms, a bunch of dudes givin you trouble in a kill hole? Call down an iron troll that looks so mad you swear somebody shat on his meat ration and let him deal with the masses.
-Weapons, literally gives you the best weapons for a 3 rune by the time you have cleared lair, what more do you want?
-Boats and hoes, that's right, if you are playing online all the specs will be so impressed with your ability to press the TAB button in succession on your keyboard, so impressed that the more wealthier specs will be inviting you on their yacht all day every day with the finest of escorts.

Disadvantages of going trog:
-You will probably learn very little tactics that will teach you about playing the game any other way besides a full Melee heavy armour tab lord.
-it will quickly turn into the most boring experience after your first win with trog.
-you are literally tellin people you are a base scrub online by playing trog with a newb race.
-your friends won't talk to you anymore.


Now what you want to do is you want to play a race that it is literally impossible to lose with, a good one is Minotaur as he has plus two in all the relevant skills you need, has a nice aux attack as well as accurately represents what a trog worshiper is, a brainless humanoid degenerate that has little intelligence and ferociously fights anything in sight without making preparations first or using any tactics(who needs kill holes when you are an axe guy )

There is also Gargoyle, cannot be poisoned so lair and early adders are free, cannot be petrified and stoned so no pesky deaths from those dumb mechanics, has resist negativity, has built in AC which is on top of all other sources (once had 71 AC, I went for a shield build just to add on to that, of course I fucking won), resist electricity so eels are free, resist rot, don't breath, have partial torment resistance, can fly, has a PHD in theoretical physics with post docs in Architecture, resist losing, the list goes.

Remember to only train 3 skills: weapon,fighting and armour, all other skills are irrelevant and you don't need them to with with this combo, burn every spell book as soon as you see them, spam trogs hand on the orb run, take on all of V5 without going up stairs and remember that Felid Chaos knights are for losers.


LoL Cypher, I just noticed this, it made me laugh ;o)

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Post Thursday, 18th August 2016, 14:08

Re: Troll UC shield build question

CypherZel wrote:-Trogs hand, literally broken, Orc priests are literally free kills now that you can pop 2 MR whenever you want,


Although obviously the rest of this guide was 100% accurate and perfect, smite does not check MR so trog's hand isn't that useful against orc priests. You're likely to get kicked off your rich spectator's yachts if you make that mistake!

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Post Thursday, 18th August 2016, 14:10

Re: Troll UC shield build question

dowan wrote:
CypherZel wrote:-Trogs hand, literally broken, Orc priests are literally free kills now that you can pop 2 MR whenever you want,


Although obviously the rest of this guide was 100% accurate and perfect, smite does not check MR so trog's hand isn't that useful against orc priests. You're likely to get kicked off your rich spectator's yachts if you make that mistake!


Did not know that, all this time I have been using trogs hand thinking it helps haha, thanks

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Post Thursday, 18th August 2016, 20:37

Re: Troll UC shield build question

dowan wrote:
CypherZel wrote:-Trogs hand, literally broken, Orc priests are literally free kills now that you can pop 2 MR whenever you want,


Although obviously the rest of this guide was 100% accurate and perfect, smite does not check MR so trog's hand isn't that useful against orc priests. You're likely to get kicked off your rich spectator's yachts if you make that mistake!


Well smite checks HP and Trog's Hand helps with that.

They also cast pain which does check MR.

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Post Friday, 19th August 2016, 18:05

Re: Troll UC shield build question

Very true, I'm just saying orcs priests aren't free kills (well, more free than usual for a BE) with trog's hand MR.

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Post Monday, 22nd August 2016, 00:23

Re: Troll UC shield build question

With a Be, everything is a free kill.
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Post Monday, 22nd August 2016, 00:42

Re: Troll UC shield build question

If you see a shield with any resistance you should absolutely use the shield since Crawl I think seriously over powers resistance (yes even at one +).
That is rF+, rC+ and basically any r* (even rMagic and rPois) seriously trumps the offhand punch.
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Post Monday, 22nd August 2016, 03:49

Re: Troll UC shield build question

Counterpoint: resists don't matter very much and you generally shouldn't worry about them much. Use them if it's reasonable, don't go out of your way(ex: don't wear armor that gives you significantly worse ac/ev for the sake of a resist)

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Post Monday, 22nd August 2016, 05:29

Re: Troll UC shield build question

agentgt wrote:If you see a shield with any resistance you should absolutely use the shield since Crawl I think seriously over powers resistance (yes even at one +).
That is rF+, rC+ and basically any r* (even rMagic and rPois) seriously trumps the offhand punch.


Counterpoint: I can spend half a turn in any relevant battle to get those resists using rings, without giving up the Sick Damage of the offhand punch.
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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 01:41

Re: Troll UC shield build question

dowan wrote:Well, I looked back over some old threads, and some random FSIMS showed shieldless UC doing about 15% more damage or so. It's certainly not negligible, but probably worth giving up for a decent shield. Of course, don't forget the XP investment that comes with a shield...


If you're not casting spells, you can start using a shield long before the skill level required to remove all penalties though, and still get most of the benefits.

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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 02:18

Re: Troll UC shield build question

Shard1697 wrote:Counterpoint: resists don't matter very much and you generally shouldn't worry about them much. Use them if it's reasonable, don't go out of your way(ex: don't wear armor that gives you significantly worse ac/ev for the sake of a resist)


umm you should worry about resistance considering there are many portions of the game you absolutely need it. The shield is 3rd ring for a troll who already has few armor slots. It is a minor sacrifice for a species that has very little problem dishing out damage but does have a problem avoiding magical missles (low EV) ... so yeah it does matter.

Arrhythmia wrote:Counterpoint: I can spend half a turn in any relevant battle to get those resists using rings, without giving up the Sick Damage of the offhand punch.


If you have the rings great. You might not be so lucky though.. and ditto again on the armor.. you also realize many resistances stack? I have had a couple 3 runes with no rF+ rings so the "third ring" is a viable option. Oh and for MR+ when are you going to put the ring on... after you get paralyzed or confused by something invisible? I also don't think trolls die that often from not having enough damage. I usually die from getting pin cushioned or deep elf crystal speared. I think I have also died being paralyzed by a lich (again MR). Resistances matter a metric ton in crawl. Honestly I don't even think you need more 20 UC for a troll... the damage is that good.
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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 03:19

Re: Troll UC shield build question

agentgt wrote:I have had a couple 3 runes with no rF+ rings so the "third ring" is a viable option. Oh and for MR+ when are you going to put the ring on... after you get paralyzed or confused by something invisible?


No, before. Duh. There's no monster in the game that can be invisible and can cast confuse/paralyze that can go invisible without me seeing it anyways, so if you're argument is "it's better if you're a bad player", may I convince you to get good?

PS: Potions of resistance also exist.
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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 03:24

Re: Troll UC shield build question

agentgt wrote:
Shard1697 wrote:Counterpoint: resists don't matter very much and you generally shouldn't worry about them much. Use them if it's reasonable, don't go out of your way(ex: don't wear armor that gives you significantly worse ac/ev for the sake of a resist)


umm you should worry about resistance considering there are many portions of the game you absolutely need it.
No, there are not.

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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 04:12

Re: Troll UC shield build question

Shard1697 wrote:
agentgt wrote:
Shard1697 wrote:Counterpoint: resists don't matter very much and you generally shouldn't worry about them much. Use them if it's reasonable, don't go out of your way(ex: don't wear armor that gives you significantly worse ac/ev for the sake of a resist)


umm you should worry about resistance considering there are many portions of the game you absolutely need it.
No, there are not.


If you are talking 3 rune yeah then D1-15 and I guess Lair and Orc resistances do not matter. It is a small portion of the 15 rune game.

Shall I list how a majority of the runes require some form of resistance? Do you really want to go into Cocytus with out rC+ or tomb with out some rN+?
BTW when I say resistances I also mean other modifiers like SInv... Elf dudes can do an astonishing amount of damage invisible.

How about Depths and or Zot. How about you show me some wins with out any resistances? A single resistance is 50% damage reduction. Even if they are not important ego on armour lets not pretend they are not critical to survival.

Arrhythmia wrote:No, before. Duh. There's no monster in the game that can be invisible and can cast confuse/paralyze that can go invisible without me seeing it anyways, so if you're argument is "it's better if you're a bad player", may I convince you to get good?


At hundreds of thousands of moves people make mistakes and or lack pots of resistance or rings. Constantly remembering to switch rings can be an accident waiting to happen. Resistances are important because they are overpowered and the shield is doing more than just keeping your arm tied up... it is providing some defenses. All of these things add up to being worth more than the 15% of offensive power.... but what do I know maybe I am just a shitty player that needs resistances.

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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 08:59

Re: Troll UC shield build question

agentgt wrote:How about Depths and or Zot. How about you show me some wins with out any resistances? A single resistance is 50% damage reduction. Even if they are not important ego on armour lets not pretend they are not critical to survival.


I most often clear Depths and Zot without boring to switch resistance jewellery unless in dire situation - e.g. a foo giant put me in a dangerous situation because of some good rolls, or when in bad positioning.
The only single monster outside extended - namely Hells and Pan - I reliably put appropriate resist jewellery before engaging are Oofs and the only branch where I try to enter with appropriate resistance is Slimes - but that is easily doable without rcorr anyway.

http://underhound.eu:81/crawl/morgue/na ... 132907.txt
http://underhound.eu:81/crawl/morgue/na ... 145605.txt
http://underhound.eu:81/crawl/morgue/na ... 110436.txt
http://underhound.eu:81/crawl/morgue/na ... 161207.txt
http://underhound.eu:81/crawl/morgue/na ... 131100.txt

Some as close as without resistance wins of mine. It is difficult to have one 100% without - I think I could have at least one but I can't find right now - because by the end of the game it's hard to have all slots filled with useful things chosen for AC\EV\Slay\Wiz\Whatever which don't provide any resist by chance too.

I can assure that resists are highly overrated - a single piece of jewellery is enough for all the game and most often isn't needed anyway - and you should at least avoid to give bad advice regarding that.
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok

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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 09:57

Re: Troll UC shield build question

My advice was if your a troll in early D and you see a shield with some resistances it is probably worth it over the 15% damage. If I see a large shield with rF+ as a troll I'm going to use it particularly if it is early in the game.
This is a species that has a hard time finding any defense early game.

I'm sorry you think that is bad advice. Again we are talking about trading 15% more damage vs 50% damage reduction on certain horrible likely can kill attacks and additional defense.

And there are others that agree with me that resistances are overpowered and that shields are worth it for trolls. I'm not sure why me pointing out that resistance are important aspect of the game is bad advice. I don't disagree that plenty of times you can get away with out permanently having a resistances but you need to know about them and when to put said rings on.... and I know this particularly well since I used to play lots of felids.... I think armor is overrated and I can show you two troll game wins with negligible armor like these two ~50k 15 rune trolls:

http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/ ... 141847.txt

http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/ ... 043701.txt

Would I recommend to other new players to forgo armor because you don't need it... no I would not. Just because you can win frequently with out really needing any resistances does not make it a good idea... it means you are a good player.

(and yeah you are are better player than me... but I think those two troll wins are faster than any of your wins even I think your 3 runes ... clearly I'm a moron with bad advice)

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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 10:08

Re: Troll UC shield build question

I don't think anyone said "don't use a shield on a troll", I know that I said "don't go out of your way for resists"-and a shield on a large race for unarmed is not at all out of your way. Thing is, I would use the shield even if it had no resist!

The only thing people are disagreeing with you on is "resistances are overpowered". Just because they are useful does not mean that they are required/overpowered. What does overpowered even mean in this context?

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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 12:30

Re: Troll UC shield build question

It is my opinion ( this is game design but also advice on getting resistance) that 50% damage reduction for a single +r is overpowered.
Nago even proved my point to some degree... the fact that you only need like one ring is proof that resistance are scaled incorrectly.
It should not be so high for a single r+. Elemental damage should be scaled down and you should probably not be rewarded so much for having a single +.
It promotes constant ring swapping which I think is sort of tedious design.

But you know what since I have zero friends on this forum and need to work on that to get some group thought WWE tag team "thanks from" going on I'm going to remove my crazy opinion take back what I said.

I give up. I don't have enough to back my claim. You guys are right resistances are fine and you shouldn't bother or worry about them much. Mercy.

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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 12:35

Re: Troll UC shield build question

I don't care about resistance arguments, but I can thank your post if it makes you feel better!

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