A Guide to Transmutation DCSS Spells


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Post Wednesday, 20th July 2016, 16:16

A Guide to Transmutation DCSS Spells

When it comes to decisions, Crawl's magic system has two main aspects. The first one is strategic and long-term: the choice of spells to learn and forget. The second one is the tactical aspect: which is the best situation in which to use this spell? Or, given a certain situation, which spell should I use?

This thread aims to illustrate such situations, for the advantage of new, newish, or curious players who want to learn something about mechanics they tend not to use.

Since I am no great player, it would be nice if you people could jump in, give suggestions, examine mistakes, suggest changes and so on. There also are certain spells (especially conjurations) for which I am not sure of an actual particularity beside "it inflicts damage", so external input would be greatly appreciated. This is just the first part, I will edit the post as the list is expanded.

The idea is that of dividing by effect, rather than by school (forms, allies, buffs, debuffs, direct damage, general utility). I will later add school and level to spell description, and a short preamble about interaction of different magic schools.

Anyway, here it goes:

The Right Form at the Right Place, or: A Situational Guide to Transmutation DCSS Spells


Part 1: PC-Targeted Forms and Physical Changes

General notes

Gods and Races
Zin hates chaotic magic, which means all of the following spells. The Shining One hates Necromutation and also hates it if you use Spider Form to poison someone, although casting the spell is OK. Ghouls and Mummies cannot use the following spells. Vampires can, but only if at least full.

Reverting to Normal
The option to revert to your normal form is available in the abilities menu (a).

Forms and Equipment
Full body transformations make your equipment meld into your body. Ashenzari followers notice no change for what concerns their deity; however, all other effects or special abilities granted by equipment, with the exception of worn jewellery, will become unavailable until the end of the transformation. You also cannot wield items or use wands while in full body forms. Since the items simply meld in your body, you will not suffer drain, contamination, distortion and such as a consequence of the transformation; autocursing items also don't recurse themselves when they are unmelded from your body.

The Spells:

Beastly Appendage: Marginal power up to melee in the form of talons, horns2 or a spike growing out of your body.

Tactic: To be used before any melee combat, until you have access to more powerful transmutations. Racial differences: octopodes will always grow a spike on one of their tentacles; minotaurs will always grow talons; merfolk will always grow horns. Occupying body slots impedes the growth of the appendage (no talons with boots, no horns with helmets; Okawaru tends to donate hats if you use this spell, as hats allow horns to grow); this can be used to force the game to always generate horns, which are somewhat more efficient than talons.

Strategy: The spell is easy to cast, and represents an entrance point to Transmutations; however, it differs from many Transmutations in that it isn't set on an Unarmed combat build, since auxiliary attacks don't depend on Unarmed. If you are a Transmuter, it will be useful for the first few levels of the dungeon. If you casually find it later as a melee character with free body slots, you might want to learn it to gain a marginal advantage, although it surely won't be a game-changer. General use spells tend to be a better choice at this point, and the fact that you might find a helmet or boots soon means that the spell will become useless.

Transmutation: 1 | Book of Changes

Spider Form: High EV, low AC, inflict poison, notably betters melee capabilities (kill ogres), full body transformation

Tactic: It's the ticket to fight reliably against more dangerous than average creatures in the early dungeon. A single ogre, orc wizards and even Sigmund, if he doesn't confuse you, can be killed with relative ease. Poison means that you can keep inflicting damage to foes who have blinked or turned themselves invisible. Keep in mind your low AC and your weakness to poison; you also have very high EV, but spells like magic dart, which has very high precision, can hurt.
In the middle game it remain very good against non venomous insects, and is usable to kite and slowly poison boulder beetles as they roll beside you after you dodged. In general, this is your main access to poison branded damage as a Transmuter. Remember that poison damage increases with each hit which applies it. This means that, sometimes, you will have to choose between immediately running away from an opponent you are entangled in melee with or give another bite before trying to get away. Running is generally safer, while staying for that extra poison hit is a gamble.

Strategy: Memorizing this spell greatly betters the survival chances of a transmuter. It is the first full-body transformation you get access to, and allows you to learn some poison magic, which makes certain useful spells immediately usable, if you find them (cure poison, which is very good while in spider form, mephitic cloud, Olgreb's toxic radiance, this last one not to be used while in spider form). At the same time, this spell puts you in the Transmuter niche build (UA + Dodging + Transmutation), and is pretty much useless for melee characters which rely on equipment or spellcasters without Unarmed skills. It allows you to make good use of Stealth, although the form will never inflict as much damage on stab as a short blade.

Transmutation, Poison: 3 | Book of Changes, Book of Envenomations

Ice Form: AC, HP bonus, inflict freezing damage, float on water and deep water, rC+++, rF-, rPois+, full body transformation

Tactic: This is actually straightforward. Act according to special abilities and resistances. The freezing damage can slow cold-blooded opponents, which makes it exceptionally useful in the Lair, where, in a pinch, you can slow mambas, moccasins and spiny frogs in melee with poison resistance active, and slow hydras with decent AC and HP: hydras remain dangerous to melee, but it becomes easier to run away from them if things go wrong. Use water to get away from problems (not hydras) or to take shortcuts, make yourself resistant to cold and enjoy immunity to poison-derived confusion (swamp drakes).

Strategy: the second full body transmutation dips you in ice, which means that you might later have access to puffs of frost to slow down cold blooded monsters from afar, to kill hellions from range (which is useful to pick a group one by one, but not a good idea if there is just one) or to extinguish fire clouds. Anyway, Ice Form is a spell you want: it is loaded with resistances to which you probably don't have access yet through equipment, and can make whole branches easier. Merfolks have the added advantage of not losing their water walking in this form, and of not drowning if the form ends at the wrong time. Anyway, this form requires the UA + D + Tr build, which makes it of little use for most other builds.

Ice, Transmutation: 4 | Book of Changes, Book of Transfigurations, Book of Beasts

Blade Hands: Huge damage boost to unarmed (even for Claws3), huge malus to spellcasting, only mutates hands

Tactic: This spell will only meld your shield and weapon into your hands; otherwise, it allows you to fight while keeping your equipment on. You can change jewellery, but you can't use wands in this form. Also, your body only slightly changes, which means that a Merfolk can still swim well, while a Minotaur can use his head. A felid will have his stealth decreased for the duration of the spell. In general, this spell is very useful for situations in which the only need is high damage output, without speed, brand or special resistances: such a situation can be against orc warriors or knights, crocodilians, many giants. It is best used in corridors, where the high damage against single targets can be used more safely. It hinders spellcasting, so you should cast all eventual buffs before this last one. The blade will cut off hydra heads, so you should look for alternatives (the most obvious one being ice form). Be also aware of the high hunger cost: the last thing you want is the spell to end and find yourself starving with a few enemies still around, since starving status impedes casting, among other things.

Strategy: If you are a transmuter, you will likely learn this spell or see it become usable before Ice Form, since it only relies on Transmutation to work. While not being a full body form, it still requires both UA and Tr, which limits its attractiveness to not transmuters. Concerning the hunger cost, you might consider using a staff of energy, if you find one. The staff won't be useful as a weapon for you, but will meld into your forms while absorbing the hunger cost; it will only be a bore when fighting in your normal form.

Transmutation: 5 | Book of Changes

Hydra Form: HP bonus, rPois+, Improved Cleaving, UC bonus, health regeneration based on HD of killings.
The attack isn't calculated like with natural hydras as a number of lesser attacks, but as a single strike which deals equal damage to all opponents around you. To regenerate through eating you need opponents which leave corpses (no demons or undead). Flaming slashes chop your heads off. Short duration. Damage output similar to blade hands, which is not cleaving, but allows you to keep your equipment: as a result, Hydra Form is better against many lesser opponents, while Blade Hands is the choice against single, more durable targets.

Statue form: +UC, +Strength, +20AC, +gdr, +HP, rPois+++, rEl+, rN+, rTorm (50%), rRot, -2Dex, you become slow
You get great melee power ups, but lose speed and become vulnerable to Shatter and LRD. Shatter is used by Jorgrun, Pand Lords and possibly ghosts, LRD by deep troll earth mages. Very good in Snake Pits, where almost everyone is slow anyway, generally a good option if you don't need mobility (eg you are in a killhole).

Dragon Form: +UC, Bite3, Claws3, TailSlap, +1d10 accuracy, Breathe Flames 3, rF++, rPois+, +HP, 34%GDR, about 10 AC, flight, +10 Strength, Reg, rC-, EV about 8, flight
Dragon form lasts long and allows you to use your rings and amulets. It gives better attack power than Blade Hands, but takes away your armour, although it doesn't impair spellcasting. The spell is very powerful against single opponents: a level 13 MfTr can kill Tiamat, if he pulls off rage (available through amulets) and dragon form at the same time. As most full body forms, it somewhat limits your defences, so keeping it on indefinitely may not be a good idea. It does help in Gehenna, though. Draconians have a special affinity to this spell: they keep many stats from their normal form (scales AC, breath weapon, resistances, with only reds getting rF++ and rC- and whites rC++ and rF- instead).

Necromutation: Undead, rC+, rN+++, +50 MR, +6AC, UC inflicts drain, Necromancy bonus, immune to poison and directly induced rot, sickness, torment, mutation (rot instead), no need to eat, can't swallow, no change to equipment use (except holy wrath).

Tactic: The most immediate effect of this spell is that of turning you undead, giving all of the related effects, good and bad. It will fully shield you from Torment, which is a useful ability in Hell and Zot, and make bolts of draining and shadow dragons much less imposing. It also only transforms you body, allowing you to keep your hard won equipment. This spell also gives you the most evident advantages (no hunger clock or spell hunger) and disadvantages (no quaffing) typical of being a mummy. It can be useful in mutation-infested areas, since you can heal rot after turning back to normal with easily found items. You are however vulnerable to Holy, which makes Bennu and Apis much more dangerous, and Dispel Undead, which is used by Anubis guards, Black suns, Gloorx Vloq, Josephine, Revenants, Tzitzimitls and possibly other Pand Lords. This means that using this form in undead branches is actually dangerous. Remember that you can immediately return to your living form, if you need to, unless you are confused, about which see the strategy section. Remember that each form has its strengths and weaknesses, and that their utility is situational: this is also true for Necromutation.

Strategy: While the strengths of this spell balance out its immediate weaknesses rather well, the procedure needed to get it reliably castable is a large problem. As a 2 schools level 8 spell, Necromutation is one of the heftiest spells in regards to experience cost. Things are made worse by 3 other factors: the lack of synergy between Transmutation and Necromancy, as there simply is no other Transmutation/Necromancy spell, the fact that the form is found only in the Necronomicon, which contains other, more easily castable spells which have no effect on the undead and are regarded as life savers (Borgnjor's Revivification and Death's Door; Revivification is a Charms/Necromancy spell, and a Necromancer can branch out to Charms already already at lower levels with Regeneration and Excruciating Wounds), and the problem that Transmutation requires a UA melee/mage build, while Necromancy rather sets the player towards avoiding melee, preferring, if needed, weapons with the Pain brand (so no Unarmed). This makes this spell a bit of an outsider, since it is the only form designed to enhance magical capabilities, rather than melee combat. Choosing to learn this spell thus usually means having to artificially generate a build only for this purpose: you will be putting a lot of XP into a bet, since that XP could be put into more immediately useful spells (if you start out with Necromancy and later decide to learn Transmutation for this spell, you are missing out on e.g. Translocations, Hexes and Charms, which offer very useful spells at much lower skill levels). Another point is the lack of quaffing, which becomes a pain because you can't heal confusion, which will also stop you from reverting to your normal form; the clarity mutation will help you, otherwise you will have to rely on artifacts. The only two unrandarts which currently spawn with clarity are the Autumn Katana (which doesn't have a necromantically interesting Pain brand) and the Amulet of the Four Winds. Lack of spell hunger can also be replicated with a staff of energy.

Transmutation, Necromancy: 8 | Necronomicon

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Currently abandoned, and possibly inaccurate!

Part 2: Allies

General notes

The Gods

Zin, The Shining One, Elyvilon and Okawaru don't want you to hurt your allies. The Good Gods (Zin, TSO and Eyvilon) also don't want you to cast any Necromancy spell (Animate Skeleton, Animate Dead, Haunt, Simulacrum), as well as certain other spells, these being Call Imp, Summon Demon, Summon Greater Demon, Malign Gateway and Summon Horrible Things; these last two spells are also marked as Chaotic. Fedhas Madash doesn't want you to derive undead from corpses.

Each description will start with x|y. x is the number of creatures you can summon casting the spell a single time, y is the maximum number of creatures you can command at the same time using this spell.

Summoned Creatures

Summoned creatures have a number of distinctive traits. They are temporary, are subject to abjuration and warding, will disappear if you change floor, are immune to vampiric draining and inner flame (but not to the explosion of other creatures), and cannot attack outside your LOS. Abjuration as a monster spell has a 1:3 chance to be available to any monster which knows a summoning spell; it will directly make your summoned ally disappear. Warding is a rare effect to come across; it is caused on monsters by staves of summoning and some artifacts, and makes it harder for a summoned creature to hit its target.

Summon Butterflies: up to 8|37? use it to block line of sight. The number of summoned creatures increases with spell power, to a max of 8.

Summon Small Mammal: 1|4 Useful for fighting in the early dungeon, later use it to block line of sight. Helps with distracting opponents and stabbing.

Call Imp: 1|5 A noticeable step up in power. Crimson imps have the issue of their constant blinking, making them less useful when you are trying to get away and generally less reliable, but the probability of summoning them decreases as spell power increases. Shadow imps can see invisible even if you can't. Iron imps are good as a barrier between you and your opponent. White imps have a ranged attacks, which makes them more useful outside of corridors. Generally a multi-purpose spell.

Call canine Familiar: 1|1 summons a hound, wolf or warg, which remains for a long time, moves faster than you, sees invisible and cannot be blinded. In a certain way, it is the opposite of Call Imp, which summons a horde of less reliable monsters. Canine Familiars are better used against casters.

Summon Guardian Golem: 1|1 normal speed, 10 AC, a lot of resists, bad EV. The guardian golem will absorb part of the damage dealt to your allies in its LOS. Keep in mind that it may explode upon death; being Large, the blast radius is of 1 square. It will help in larger brawls.

Summon Ice Beast: 1|5, they are obviously useful in watery (floating), icy (rC+++) or poisonous settings. They partly bypass AC. Normal speed, 5 AC, 10 EV. They are large and weak against fire.

Summon Lighting Spire: 1|1. The spire shoots electricity bolts and is placed with smite targeting within 2 tiles from you. It is stationary and cannot be polymorphed. While placing them to the side of a swarm may seem interesting, remember that they don't have that many HP, although they are given a decent AC (13). Think well about where to best place them.

Shadow creatures: The results of the spell vary hugely based on branch, making it potentially useful but unreliable in Dungeon, Hell, Lair, but extremely strong in Vaults and Zot. Keep in mind, however, that summoning certain creatures can cause problems: damnation and torment will strike you too, and wrath moths will enrage enemies as well as friends.

Summon Demon: Summons tier 3 or 4 demons, which may be hostile or not depending on spell power. The results are thus extremely variable. It's probably worth having a potion of resistance around or means to abjure your would-be employees before you summon them, at least until the spell isn't more reliable.

Summon Forest: Summons a dryad surrounded by trees. The dryad will animate the trees to inflict irresistible damage on adjacent enemies. She will also call vines from the trees, dragging enemies towards them. The trees substitute walls, and the walls do not come back after the spell ends. This means that you can use the spell to clear walls (although the spell is impossible to cast if there are too many walls around) and to hold on to certain slippery foes without coming in contact with them yourself, which is good against melee monsters.

Summon Mana Viper: 1|2 The viper has an antimagic branded bite, making it obviously useful against spellcasters. It also is fast and sees invisible.

Monstrous Menagerie: summons a manticore, harpy, lindwurm or sphinx. The spell is useful, but it also has very different results depending on what you summon. Manticores can attack at range. Harpies are summoned in group. Lindwurms are powerful against fire-susceptible monters. Sphinxes are faster than normal and can slow, paralyse, smite and confuse your enemies. Remember to check out enemy resistance to what you have summoned - a Sphinx is powerful, but not that useful against magic immune monsters.

Haunt: a summoning which requires a target. The summoned ghosts will only care about it and ignore other opponents. Once the target dies, they puff away. It is useful against single opponents lacking rN. Notice that it is smite targeting, so it can be used to take out other summoners, like Boggarts. The spell also summons wraiths, which can hamper enemy speed, and phantasmal warriors, which can blink to enemy blinkers.

Spellforged Servitor: Summon a single magic immune and elementally resistant construct. It will know some of your own destructive spells, which means that it works better if you are a good conjurer. It requires some preparation and calculated forgetting of certain spells. Hasting it is very useful, since it makes it cast more and faster. Take advantage of its resistances.

Summon Greater Demon: summons a tier 2 or 1 demon. It might be hostile, a chance reduced by higher spell power. While a friendly tier 2 demon won't turn hostile, all tier 1 demons will turn hostile when the charm placed upon them ends, so be prepared. This spells gives you access to irresistible damage, such as damnation. The demon will not use torment, but won't care about hurting you with damnation. Results generally vary, depending on what you summoned. Don't hope on killholes if you summoned a cacodemon.

Summon Hydra: 1|3 Guess what, it summons a hydra (with up to 12 heads). Good in water, resistant to poison, useful against trolls and slashing opponents, has decent HP but no AC. Very useful against opponents with low AC.

Summon Horrible Things: Summons a large number of large abominations or up to 2 tentacled monstrosities. Good against heavy AC opponents, the tentacled monstrosities can see invisible and grab opponents and hamper their movement. This makes melee monsters much less worrisome. You can also take advantage of rTorm and rN+++ on your underlings, if you have the means (sceptre of torment, decks, sacrifices, scrolls, bolts...), or throw them against curse toes.

Dragon's Call: It summons true dragons, with the exception of pearl and swamp dragons. The spell lasts for a while as a status, consuming your MP with each dragon which appears. The dragons appear near the enemies, which makes the spell usable in corridors.

Derived Undead

Animate Skeleton

Animate Dead

Death Channel

Simulacrum

Other

Tukima's Dance

Spectral Weapon

Sticks to Snakes: the spell consumes MP and a single arrow from your inventory. It will summon ball pythons and adders, which means that you can stand behind and let your snakes constrict and poison a single opponent. Until you have access to Spider Form, this allows you to fight already softened opponents in the open without too much risk. If the opponents become too many, however, you may want to retreat to a corridor and try to disappear before they kill your snakes and gang up on you.

Malign Gateway: summons a gateway for an eldritch tentacle. The gateway cannot be abjured, and opening one automatically closes the previously existing one, even if it was hostile. The tentacle takes its time to appear, and will then inflict very heavy chaotic branded damage. Since it can strike outside your LOS, it is a good way to keep opponents at bay while you get away, or a trap to lure the monsters to while the tentacle appears. Keep an escape route available, because the tentacle appears as friendly, but later will try to slap you, too.

Under construction: Buffs, Debuffs, Direct Damage, General Utility. The already present lists are still incomplete.
Last edited by Shtopit on Tuesday, 16th August 2016, 07:28, edited 8 times in total.
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Post Wednesday, 20th July 2016, 17:47

Re: A Situational Guide to DCSS Spells

Hm, I'm pretty sure you can have two mana vipers at a time. Frankly, your readers would be better served reading the wiki.
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Post Wednesday, 20th July 2016, 18:06

Re: A Situational Guide to DCSS Spells

Hey, that's one of the worst insults you could have made! :P the wiki is literally worse than playing with no wiki
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Post Wednesday, 20th July 2016, 18:16

Re: A Situational Guide to DCSS Spells

For raw information the wiki is generally quite accurate. When it comes to advice it's pretty shaky. So it's a useful tool, as long as you keep in mind what it is.
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Post Wednesday, 20th July 2016, 18:22

Re: A Situational Guide to DCSS Spells

If you have a feel for what kinds of things wiki gets right and wrong, it's usable.

The OP falls into the same trap as the wiki, though. It offers a lot of irrelevant or marginally important information, gets a fair number of things wrong outright, and makes errors of omission and emphasis. Like, even a fairly opinionated guide that just says, "This spell is good/bad, it's a generic summon/you can use it to kill such and such otherwise dangerous monster easily/you can use this to cheese your way through X/it's too high level for what it does", would be better.
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Post Wednesday, 20th July 2016, 18:33

Re: A Situational Guide to DCSS Spells

Well, if I thought I could do this right on my own, I wouldn't have asked for help ;) In general, I aim at correcting mistakes as soon as I find them or someone points them to me. The problem with the Wiki is that it is enormous and distributed on a lot of pages. This means that it will inform you of what a single spell summons, but you will need to go to another page to see what this summon exactly does, assuming that summoned creatures have the same stats as normal creatures.

This is a limited project. Take the spells, give some info on them, explain situations in which they are especially of use or can be preferred to other spells. Trying to be precise in a small range. To me, it wasn't immediately evident why spider form stays useful after acquiring ice form, or how different blade hands and hydra form are. The idea is to give this kind of info. The main reason why the summoning section sucks is that I almost never play summoners.

BTW, thanks to those who have already pointed out some mistakes.
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Post Wednesday, 20th July 2016, 21:46

Re: A Situational Guide to DCSS Spells

jwoodward48ss wrote:Hey, that's one of the worst insults you could have made! :P the wiki is literally worse than playing with no wiki
I think that was goodcoolguy's point, yes.
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Post Wednesday, 20th July 2016, 23:19

Re: A Situational Guide to DCSS Spells

Well, you don't really mention XP costs on any of these... which is the first thing I think about on a lot of spells, especially something like necromutation which I tend to think is not worth the cost.

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Post Thursday, 21st July 2016, 01:58

Re: A Situational Guide to DCSS Spells

There's a problem here that is similar to a lot of the information on the wiki, which is that when you simply list spells in order like this and give a description, you actually lose perspective about when and how they are useful in games that actual people will actually play.

Any of the spells contained in the Book of Changes, which transmuters start off with, should be discussed together in its own section and specifically in relation to that background. Ditto Book of Calling and summoners.

Again, about perspective: Not all magic schools are equal in their general appeal.

Transmutation spells is a slightly weird place to start, in fact, because realistically most of them only apply to people who started as transmuters, and to an even smaller additional segment of characters who did not start as transmuters but have put a lot into training up unarmed combat (for... some reason). Transmutations tend to be niche in a way that summons, charms, translocations, and necromancy are not; it is easy to imagine situations in which characters that did not start out casting might want to branch into those schools of magic mid-game. Hexes can also provide a reasonable bang for your experience buck. Unless you are going unarmed, you really don't want to branch into transmutations. Heavy conjurations focus is a bit niche too, like transmutations, but some spells (conjure flame, mephitic cloud, and dazzling spray come to mind) are generally quite strong/useful for their level, and I've had occasion to get them, and made good use of them, on characters that did not start with magic, or that started with magic in a different school.

The transmutation spells that are not generally used by unarmed combat specialists (e.g., necromutation) are a very bad investment. Aside from the high cost of getting it castable, mentioned by posters upthread, the form also prevents you from using the high level necromancy spells that are actually worth the skill investment, death's door and b's revivification. — You know, those spells that are also in the Necronomicon and make it really, really difficult for your character to die....? (Oh and amulet of clarity is being removed, btw.)

The guide also suffers from this other kind of wiki-itis in that the advice given seems to be based on idle speculation and theory-crafting about the listed information, rather than actual experience using the spell in an actual game. This serves to reinforce knee-jerk assumptions about spells that may not have any bearing on how to use the spells to good effect in a game. (For instance, allied ice beasts slow down cold-blooded creatures, which includes the most (and only really) threatening non-unique enemies in Lair; that's waaaaay more important for summoners and ice elementalists than the fact that your ice beasts have rC+++ and rpois and floating. Every now and then, those other attributes may come in kind of handy for a Su or IE, whereas having an ally slow down mambas and foo frogs is useful in every game that doesn't end before you enter the Lair.)

EDIT: Sorry if the above sounds harsh, but (to your credit!) you seem open to the criticism and if you want to help people at Crawl by writing something, you need to understand the sort of problems that the wiki always seems to generate, and try not to reproduce them. It may sometimes be out of date or incorrect, but that really is not the main issue.

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Post Thursday, 21st July 2016, 02:11

Re: A Situational Guide to DCSS Spells

Like most of the wiki, this seems to have been written by someone who is has not won many games of crawl.

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Post Thursday, 21st July 2016, 02:13

Re: A Situational Guide to DCSS Spells

and into wrote:There's a problem here that is similar to a lot of the information on the wiki, which is that when you simply list spells in order like this and give a description, you actually lose perspective about when and how they are useful in games that actual people will actually play.
I think two bigger problems are
1. most of the information is outright wrong
2. it directly claims bad spells (like necromutation and guardian golem) are good
It reads like someone directly used the wiki to get information about the spells instead of looking at the actual source for verification.

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Post Thursday, 21st July 2016, 02:26

Re: A Situational Guide to DCSS Spells

I definitely think that the first thing to be thought about WRT spells is "when will these be worthwhile to learn"? and into already covered how transmutations is quite niche, but also there's stuff like... mana vipers is great to learn on stabby enchanter type characters, because it's half hexes and branching into summoning is a great way for enchanters to get damage that isn't reliant on overcoming MR.

I feel like the best place to start, since most people start playing primarily melee and slowly branch into spells once they become more comfortable, is low investment spells that are useful on just about every character. Stuff like Blink, Repel Missiles, Regeneration(which can then be a starting point for getting more necromancy like animate dead), Swiftness, Spectral Weapon... then you can start going into necromancy, which is widely useful stuff which features a lot of ally spells, then summoning which is exclusively ally spells, then transmutations for a more niche melee thing and finally direct damage spells and how to build a blasty caster.

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Post Thursday, 21st July 2016, 02:46

Re: A Situational Guide to DCSS Spells

duvessa wrote:
and into wrote:There's a problem here that is similar to a lot of the information on the wiki, which is that when you simply list spells in order like this and give a description, you actually lose perspective about when and how they are useful in games that actual people will actually play.
I think two bigger problems are
1. most of the information is outright wrong
2. it directly claims bad spells (like necromutation and guardian golem) are good
It reads like someone directly used the wiki to get information about the spells instead of looking at the actual source for verification.


That's true, and I started my post by trying to correct those things as I saw them (e.g., a lot of the information about max allies sustained by summon spells is wrong), but then I thought it may be more useful to the OP to reflect on whether there may be fundamental flaws in terms of how they are approaching this endeavor. Of course I could be wrong about the "more useful" part. Nonetheless I think that some of the factually correct information in OP is still misleading, and that some of the entries (e.g., summon ice beast) would not be helpful even if they were revised so as to be factually correct.

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Post Thursday, 21st July 2016, 03:03

Re: A Situational Guide to DCSS Spells

Let em give an alternative perspective. I'm working on a walkthrough guide right now. I'm posted one section of it thus far, and it was bad. Shtopit's comment, "Well, if I thought I could do this right on my own, I wouldn't have asked for help ;)" is similar to my attitude. In general, a good way to learn something is to try to teach it, and writing particularly focuses the thought process. Though this mindset is certainly not a universal among advice-givers, I'm going to selfishly hope that when present it might be treated as an advice request, even if in the form of advice-giving.
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Post Thursday, 21st July 2016, 03:45

Re: A Situational Guide to DCSS Spells

Writing guides itself seems a little misguided. For example, if by chance you're familiar with Final Fantasy for NES, try taking a look at the Final Fantasy strategy guide issue of Nintendo Power. This is a long guide prepared by professional writers and video game nerds. It's laughably bad if you know anything about the game.

On the other hand, the "good spells" entry of learndb contains more insight into magic in crawl than any crawl guide I've ever seen.
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Post Thursday, 21st July 2016, 04:52

Re: A Situational Guide to DCSS Spells

The first spell you memorize from a starter book is typically good enough for the first several levels. Then, the second or third level spell is good enough for beefy, hard hitters or all those annoying poisonous creatures that the first spell will have trouble damaging. Then you get a high level 4th/5th level spell that's good at destroying monsters fast.

Then you have a bunch of useful utility spells for various purposes.
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Post Thursday, 21st July 2016, 05:46

Re: A Situational Guide to DCSS Spells

goodcoolguy wrote:Writing guides itself seems a little misguided. For example, if by chance you're familiar with Final Fantasy for NES, try taking a look at the Final Fantasy strategy guide issue of Nintendo Power. This is a long guide prepared by professional writers and video game nerds. It's laughably bad if you know anything about the game.

On the other hand, the "good spells" entry of learndb contains more insight into magic in crawl than any crawl guide I've ever seen.


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Post Thursday, 21st July 2016, 12:56

Re: A Situational Guide to DCSS Spells

goodcoolguy wrote:Writing guides itself seems a little misguided. For example, if by chance you're familiar with Final Fantasy for NES, try taking a look at the Final Fantasy strategy guide issue of Nintendo Power. This is a long guide prepared by professional writers and video game nerds. It's laughably bad if you know anything about the game.

On the other hand, the "good spells" entry of learndb contains more insight into magic in crawl than any crawl guide I've ever seen.


Professionally done video game guides are pretty much all terrible. Most of the time it's quite clear the great majority of information is just directly copied from the manual, even where it's wrong. It's usually pretty obvious the people who wrote the guide spent about an hour playing an early demo version of the game, came up with a few vague strategies that sound like they might work, and then whatever spoilers and secrets the game publishers let them in on for the guide.

When I was a kid, I bought the prima strategy guide for Starcraft, and I've never really recovered from the trauma...

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Post Thursday, 21st July 2016, 17:27

Re: A Situational Guide to DCSS Spells

tl;dr: Good resources provide basic info and rule-of-thumb guidelines, and trust the player to work out the rest.

Instead of listing every spell in the game and trying to explain when/how/why you should use it, I would start by describing some common tactical uses of magic and then give examples of spells that serve that purpose. I suspect this would be both much simpler and much more useful.

Examples:

You want to damage enemies from afar with clear line-of-fire
Use conjurations that fire bolts or projectiles.

You want to damage enemies from afar when line-of-fire is blocked
Use bolts, clouds, or Portal Projectile.

You want to block enemies from firing at or approaching you
Use summons, necromancy spells that create allies, or Conjure Flame.

You want allies to help you damage or distract an enemy
Use summons, necromancy spells that create allies, or Tukima's Dance.

You want to disable an enemy for stabbing or escape
Use hexes or Mephitic Cloud.

You want to damage enemies over the following turns
Use poison or cloud spells.

You want to escape combat or change your positioning
Use Blink, Passage of Golubria or Swiftness.

You want to quietly approach a sleeping enemy for stabbing
Use Passwall or Invisibility.

You want to recover items from afar, or across unpassable terrain
Use Apportation, or Blink until you get lucky.

You want to buff yourself for combat
Use spells that let you deal more damage or improve your defenses.

...and so on.

The thing is, there's a limit to how many such situations you can list before you start veering from generalities into specifics ("You want to kill a hydra from 4 tiles away through shallow water while a Spiny Frog is blocking line-of-fire at melee range..."). And, all of these situations can also be solved by other means than spells -- part of the beauty of Crawl is that it gives us a variety of (ideally differentiated) ways to accomplish a tactical goal -- and selecting the absolute "best" option depends on evaluating your character, your inventory, the terrain, and many of other variables.

So while a list like this might have some utility for those who haven't yet discovered some of the more creative uses of a few spells, it's also not that great a guide in terms of helping you evaluate the sum total of your options. But neither is a long, over(/questionably)-informative list of all the game's spells.
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Post Thursday, 21st July 2016, 17:38

Re: A Situational Guide to DCSS Spells

goodcoolguy wrote:...On the other hand, the "good spells" entry of learndb contains more insight into magic in crawl than any crawl guide I've ever seen.

good spells on learndb wrote:apportation, blink, haste, regeneration, repel missiles, swiftness, summon butterflies, spectral weapon, animate skeleton


Wow! So insightful!

The learndb is like a terrible crawl guide without the formatting... At least the wiki marks the entries that are outdated...

Here's another good one:
learndb wrote:giant mosquito
Can make you sick with its attack, only a threat if you're trying to wait out poison.

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Post Thursday, 21st July 2016, 17:49

Re: A Situational Guide to DCSS Spells

Considering how many new (and not-so-new) players tend to idealize "pure mages" and go for level 9 spells; and considering how Crawl is in most ways designed to make you play adaptively rather than conform to a pre-decided mold -- I think it's very insightful to frame "good spells" as "spells that are low-level (except for Haste, which is OP) and useful in a wide variety of situations throughout the game for basically every character".
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Post Thursday, 21st July 2016, 19:13

Re: A Situational Guide to DCSS Spells

Sure, with that explanation it might even be useful. But if it's only useful advice if you already know why it's useful advice, then it's not really useful advice at all. I get what it's trying to say, but that's because I already get what it's trying to say... if you know what I mean.

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Post Thursday, 21st July 2016, 19:53

Re: A Situational Guide to DCSS Spells

dowan wrote:
goodcoolguy wrote:...On the other hand, the "good spells" entry of learndb contains more insight into magic in crawl than any crawl guide I've ever seen.

good spells on learndb wrote:apportation, blink, haste, regeneration, repel missiles, swiftness, summon butterflies, spectral weapon, animate skeleton


Wow! So insightful!

The learndb is like a terrible crawl guide without the formatting... At least the wiki marks the entries that are outdated...

Here's another good one:
learndb wrote:giant mosquito
Can make you sick with its attack, only a threat if you're trying to wait out poison.


All those spells are good, and giant mosquitos don't exist anymore; there's nothing that you posted that's terrible or outdated.
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Post Thursday, 21st July 2016, 22:11

Re: A Situational Guide to DCSS Spells

dowan wrote:
good spells on learndb wrote:apportation, blink, haste, regeneration, repel missiles, swiftness, summon butterflies, spectral weapon, animate skeleton


Wow! So insightful!


What other spells would you add to the list, without adding further qualifiers specifying the kinds of characters/situations for which the spells are good?

I think you could maybe make a case for shadow creatures, but with so many strong ally-creating evocables, it doesn't stand out quite as much as it once did, imo.
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Post Thursday, 21st July 2016, 22:45

Re: A Situational Guide to DCSS Spells

duvessa wrote:2. it directly claims bad spells (like necromutation and guardian golem) are good


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Post Friday, 22nd July 2016, 07:37

Re: A Situational Guide to DCSS Spells

@Tedric: Re "you want A, try X, Y or Z":

That makes me think about the merits of spectating, and whether a 'spell/device/power guide' might best be made without any words at all (just an animated gif per set of 'similar situations', showing a selection of effective responses to that kind of situation).

The aim of doing it that way would be to force the 'reader' to do the thinking about "what do these situations have in common" and "what do the solutions have in common", rather than giving them words they can memorize and use dogmatically.
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Post Friday, 22nd July 2016, 11:00

Re: A Situational Guide to DCSS Spells

BTW I am reading, keep writing. The problem of how the guide is set is a real one, in the sense that a situational guide might actually be better off proposing a situation or an opponent and then telling which spells are OK. I don't have that much time right now, so I'm just adding corrections.
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Post Friday, 22nd July 2016, 12:33

Re: A Situational Guide to DCSS Spells

and into wrote:
dowan wrote:
good spells on learndb wrote:apportation, blink, haste, regeneration, repel missiles, swiftness, summon butterflies, spectral weapon, animate skeleton


Wow! So insightful!


What other spells would you add to the list, without adding further qualifiers specifying the kinds of characters/situations for which the spells are good?

I think you could maybe make a case for shadow creatures, but with so many strong ally-creating evocables, it doesn't stand out quite as much as it once did, imo.


I'd fix that article by renaming it "Good spells for non-spellcaster" or something along those lines. It's a great list of spells for melee guys who pick up a spell or two, that list is pretty much exactly what I shoot for, except maybe spectral weapon, although if I find it and already have the charms skill due to regen or haste, I'd probably pick it up.

Then I'd have a seperate list of "Good spells for spellcasters" Which would have things like summon ice beast, freeze, sticky flame, conjure flame, meph cloud, etc. Fairly low investment spells when you've got int and are wearing light armor because you started with a book background or something.

The problem isn't the list of spells, it's the lack of explanation. Like I said, only people who already realize why the list makes sense will be able to make sense of the list, to the guy who's playing his 10th DEFE he's just going to think whoever created it was trolling.

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Post Friday, 22nd July 2016, 17:50

Re: A Guide to DCSS Spells

That requires one to be a bit more specific than "good spells." Moreover, good spells for a "non-spellcaster" is an oxymoron. I'm not trying to pick on you with semantics, here; I point this out because I think the awkward phrasing you used is indicative of the ways in which the standard gaming vocabulary ("casters," "warriors," etc.) often doesn't apply very neatly to Crawl.

The spells on the learndb list are good for "casters" (if we must use this term) also, maybe with the exception of spectral weapon, I don't have enough experience with that spell that to say one way or the other.

It is actually difficult to generalize. The terms "non-spellcaster" or "melee-focused" vs. "spellcaster" or "caster" might give off more smoke than light.

I mean, I've played ice elementalists that went Makhleb or Okawaru from an early altar, got freeze, oz's armor, and ice beasts castable, then picked up a good weapon and trained fighting, melee skill, and dodging for a long time, eventually getting the rest from book of frost along with whatever other handy spells I came across. I've also played ice elementalists that found a Sif Muna altar early on D:2 and then happened upon a staff of cold and ring of magical power before Lair, so I instead focused on magic skills and dodging for a long time and played more like your archetypal "caster." I've played plenty that fell somewhere in between.

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Post Monday, 25th July 2016, 15:52

Re: A Guide to DCSS Spells

There are some characters who kill the toughest enemies they face with a weapon, and some kill them with a spell. That list of good spells was clearly intended for the first group, and although the second group also benefits from that same list of spells, those are no longer the most important spells for that character.

Casters are usually characters who picked a background from the right column at character creation. The game labels them "mages", as opposed to those in the left column marked "warriors". While the "mages" may very well start using a weapon to killdudes, the "warriors" are very unlikely to start using spells to killdudes. So spells that are good for killdudes would obviously be left off a list of good spells for the "warriors", but it's silly to leave them off the list for the "mages".
The problem with the learndb entry is that it wants to pretend those distinctions don't exist.

A good alternative name would be "Good General Use Spells" or "Good Low-Spellpower spells". Or just an entry under "Good Spells" that clarifies the list is firstly a statement about the general view of the playerbase toward spells in DCSS, and secondly a decent list of spells for any non-trog character.

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Post Monday, 25th July 2016, 21:59

Re: A Guide to DCSS Spells

That's not unreasonable.

Learndb is very terse and doesn't present itself as a comprehensive "guide." As goodcoolguy implied above, a traditional "strategy guide" doesn't seem very appropriate to Crawl in general. Ironically, when there is a simple piece of strategic advice that applies in >>90% of cases, this probably indicates something faulty in the game's design. (E.g., "don't get necromutation" -- well, why does the spell necromutation exist? "don't worry about hunger costs" --> well why is there this whole food minigame in the first place?)

Learndb also has references/jokes that won't be helpful to new players. On the other hand, I doubt that it has often told people things that directly led to their characters being killed, so it does have that going for it. :)

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Post Tuesday, 26th July 2016, 12:38

Re: A Guide to DCSS Spells

Well, it doesn't seem to allow a long enough entry to fit a really horrible guide, unlike the wiki. There really are some gems in there...

I think this list doesn't serve much purpose. If you're going to compile a list of spells, you've got to realize it's going to be a HUGE list, there are a lot of spells. And a lot of them don't have much to describe.

Maybe a list of novel uses for spells that might not be immediately obvious would be more worthwhile. For example, using conjure flame next to bodies of water to generate steam clouds, which are surprisingly deadly in the early game. Or using mephitic cloud on enemies behind a flame cloud to get them to walk into the flames.

Maybe you could even come up with some not related to conjure flames... sorry, I've been playing a lot of Wz lately...
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Post Tuesday, 26th July 2016, 18:02

Re: A Guide to DCSS Spells

Conjure flames is actually a very nice spell. Used in corridors, it has effects similar to blink. I still have to understand how it interacts with different intelligences, however. It can also be used as a 1 time shield against bolts of cold, which should go well with haste.
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Post Tuesday, 26th July 2016, 18:46

Re: A Guide to DCSS Spells

re: how monster intelligence affects Conjure Flame, here's the general idea as I understand it: Brainless enemies like derived undead (skeletons, zombies) will always walk into damaging clouds. Everything else will only do so if they're over an HP threshold, but they'll stay in the cloud (or walk to adjacent clouds on their attack path) even after they drop below this threshold. I believe the threshold is a raw number, not a percentage; I don't know if there's any randomization involved.
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Post Tuesday, 26th July 2016, 18:58

Re: A Guide to DCSS Spells

There also seems to be a threshold where the monster won't walk into the flames to get to you, but if you hit them with ranged attacks they do. I've seen this out of yaks mostly, although they have pack behavior, so it could be related to that instead. But I think I've seen it out of non-yaks as well.

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Post Wednesday, 27th July 2016, 03:29

Re: A Guide to DCSS Spells

tedric wrote:re: how monster intelligence affects Conjure Flame, here's the general idea as I understand it: Brainless enemies like derived undead (skeletons, zombies) will always walk into damaging clouds. Everything else will only do so if they're over an HP threshold, but they'll stay in the cloud (or walk to adjacent clouds on their attack path) even after they drop below this threshold. I believe the threshold is a raw number, not a percentage; I don't know if there's any randomization involved.

Also they make no distinction between dangerous clouds, IIRC. So if you cast meph on a high-HD monster who will almost certainly resist it, they'll suddenly become willing to walk into your miasma or acid cloud.

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Post Wednesday, 27th July 2016, 05:49

Re: A Guide to DCSS Spells

The HP threshold for walking into harmful clouds is randomized. That's why you'll often see me camping behind 3 flame clouds with a black mamba on the other side, I'm waiting for it to roll low in its damage prediction and walk into the clouds and die. Intelligent monsters get a higher threshold than animals.

What dowan is experiencing is clustering illusion, I'm afraid. There's nothing like that in the game.

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Post Wednesday, 27th July 2016, 12:19

Re: A Guide to DCSS Spells

Yeah, sounds like it. It's probably just pack behavior with the yaks then. But it makes sense to see there's a middle ground where they might or might not walk into the cloud, and would explain the odd non-yak behavior.

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Post Wednesday, 27th July 2016, 14:22

Re: A Guide to DCSS Spells

I have had trouble with Conjure Flame AI setting up patterns that they won't reroute around. I spectated minmay once in Lair and he was using CF all over the place, that was the first time I saw how effective it could be. When I tried to duplicate what I could recall of his patterns though the mambas and frogs simply walked around the flames more often than I'd have liked.
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Post Wednesday, 27th July 2016, 15:07

Re: A Guide to DCSS Spells

MainiacJoe wrote:I have had trouble with Conjure Flame AI setting up patterns that they won't reroute around. I spectated minmay once in Lair and he was using CF all over the place, that was the first time I saw how effective it could be. When I tried to duplicate what I could recall of his patterns though the mambas and frogs simply walked around the flames more often than I'd have liked.

Its fairly straightforward, normal ai critters won't walk away from you to get around things (clouds included), as long as you make the path through the flame shorter than any other path, they will walk through it (or wait)

note that they will take paths of the same length around stuff, and there is more than one "next to you" square they could walk to, and they re evaluate before each step (they dont walk directly up to a cloud and then look for a way around, on each turn before that they look for a shortest path that doesnt involve a cloud), so its important to pay attention to where they are now relative to the path you want them to take, if there is a shortest path that doesn't go through clouds they will head for it.
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Post Thursday, 28th July 2016, 12:25

Re: A Guide to DCSS Spells

But they won't take a path that's equally short just to avoid flame clouds, if they are already in one, or have enough HP not to be scared of them.

Meaning if I have a setup like this, where @ = @, # = conjured flame, . = floor, and H = Hydra:

  Code:
.H.
.#.
.#.
.#.
.@.


Even though it costs the same amount of turns for the hydra to not walk through the flames, the hydra will still walk right through them, rather than take one step diagonally.
If the hydra was already at sufficiently low HP, it would walk around the flames instead(Unless it was already in a flame cloud).

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