Ripose seems really dumb

[raikaria]

Players wielding long blades can now ‘riposte’. After dodging a melee attack, users have a 50% chance to launch a free counterattack. This does not trigger retaliation effects, such as porcupine spines or hydra head growth, but functions as a normal attack otherwise. Long blade base damage has been lowered to compensate.

I... don't see a reason to use any other type of weapon now barring absurd Apts. As it was before, a Long Blade's oly real downside was lopping off Hydra Heads. Now Long Blades shine on an evasion build, can get around the Hydra issue [Dodge a few hydra attacks; slice them like 3 times in 1 turn] and have even higher DPS potential than they did before [And Long Blades ALREADY hit the hardest].

I mean; I can see something like a Merfolk of Dith being a no-brainer between their evasion Apt; a Long Blade and Umbra. You don't even need to care about your swing delay because these attacks work off enemy attacks.

Also; don't get why this isn't an attribute of small blades. I mean, Rapiers... fenceing... riposte... and Small Blades need something other than 'Daggers stab good'.

[Sar]

And Long Blades ALREADY hit the hardest

You do realize their damage was nerfed?

[CanOfWorms]

[Dodge a few hydra attacks; slice them like 3 times in 1 turn]

dodge 3 hydra heads, get 1.5 ripostes on average, then get murdered as the other heads attack your low AC character

[Siegurt]

[Dodge a few hydra attacks; slice them like 3 times in 1 turn]

dodge 3 hydra heads, get 1.5 ripostes on average, then get murdered as the other heads attack your low AC character

Also retaliation can only trigger once

[Shard1697]

[And Long Blades ALREADY hit the hardest].

No, they didn't. Great Mace was already stronger than great sword before this change(17 vs. 16 base damage), and eveningstar and double sword were the exact same(15(while between the best 'common' 1H weapons, morningstar/scimitar, morningstar had more base damage, 13 vs. 12))-the only place where long blades hit the hardest was triple sword vs. bardiche/exec axe(which is relatively niche, since you don't always get those weapons and often it's not worth putting in the extra XP for them in 3 rune game). Everywhere else they were the same, or weaker in exchange for less XP required.

[tabstorm]

Here's your problem OP - you think that "evasion builds" are good. In fact, they are the opposite of good, in general, and by evasion builds I mean "light armor melee".

Another few things to keep in mind:

1. Crawl accuracy is awful.
2. You can only riposte on an enemies' first attack, so you don't get 8 ripostes against an 8-headed hydra.
3. Blocking an attack with a shield prevents riposte, and SH is checked before EV.
4. Good long blades are rarer than other weapon types.
5. Enemy accuracy is fairly good in Crawl.
6. Even taking 1-5 into account, most enemies past early game die in 4-5 swings. It's quite rare to actually get a riposte on an enemy, all things considered.

[nago]

I've tried only 1 lb user for now, my idea is that they're similar, dmg wise, to other weapons except you enjoy a lot more of messages. And the fact long blades were changed to add a new mechanics which doesn't change at all how you use them.

The biggest difference is in early game, where accuracy sucks most and the enemies have good EV so you can get a significant bonus because you may attack 10 times to kill and get some free "hits" meanwhile.

[dowan]

[And Long Blades ALREADY hit the hardest].

No, they didn't. Great Mace was already stronger than great sword before this change(17 vs. 16 base damage), and eveningstar and double sword were the exact same(15(while between the best 'common' 1H weapons, morningstar/scimitar, morningstar had more base damage, 13 vs. 12))-the only place where long blades hit the hardest was triple sword vs. bardiche/exec axe(which is relatively niche, since you don't always get those weapons and often it's not worth putting in the extra XP for them in 3 rune game). Everywhere else they were the same, or weaker in exchange for less XP required.

Triple sword is also stronger than a great mace. You're right that it's not usually practical, but it still exists, and was the hardest hitting weapon, excepting g(s)c of course.

[Shard1697]

Right, but triple sword is not equivalent weapon to great mace. Great mace/great sword/battleaxe/glaive are all in the same category of "pretty good for lategame relatively common 2H weapon", and they all take around the same amount of skill. And it's only 1 weapon regardless, at all other "tiers" of weapon the common idea "long blades are more rare but hit harder" wasn't really true.

[Siegurt]

Right, but triple sword is not equivalent weapon to great mace. Great mace/great sword/battleaxe/glaive are all in the same category of "pretty good for lategame relatively common 2H weapon", and they all take around the same amount of skill. And it's only 1 weapon regardless, at all other "tiers" of weapon the common idea "long blades are more rare but hit harder" wasn't really true.

I had always equated dire flails with great swords, and compared great maces to triple swords, myself.

[Shard1697]

Why? Great maces are much, much more common than triple swords, and closer to great swords(and glaive/battleaxe instead of bardiche/exe axe) in damage/skill/rarity.

Honestly I don't think there's an equivalent for dire flail. It's unique in that it's a common 2H with the same damage as a common 1H, but in exchange for losing the other hand you get lower skill requirement+better mindelay. All other 2H weapons make tradeoffs for higher base damage, instead. Also, M&F just has more different weapons in it than the other weapon types(even not counting club/rod/giant club/GSC, it still has 9 weapons. polearms and long blades have 8, axes only have 5...), so naturally there's gonna be stuff you can't draw direct comparisons to.

By the way, what is up with how axes only have 5 different weapons? No demon weapon, and no high tier 1H non-demon weapon either... give me demon hatchets, at least!

[duvessa]

short blades has 4 weapons and no "high tier" ones at all
staves has 3 weapons

[Shard1697]

Yeah, but those weapon types seem to have different goals in mind with how they cross over with magic use(one with enhancers, the other with taking advantage of hexes), where axes, to me anyways, seem to be more like LB/M&F/Polearms.

I guess what I'm saying is, what reason is there for demon blade/demon whip/demon trident to exist that doesn't also apply to having a demon axe?

[duvessa]

There aren't really reasons for those weapons to exist in the first place, so that question doesn't make a lot of sense...

[Shard1697]

They exist both to be good fast 1H options(and also to become neat special holy weapons with TSO, but that's not important)

[crate]

enemy accuracy really isn't that good in crawl

you need to lower your EV pretty considerably to make riposte-longblades actually deal less damage than non-riposte longblades (except probably specifically great swords, since they got a pretty big damage reduction compared to any other longblade)

[duvessa]

They exist both to be good fast 1H options(and also to become neat special holy weapons with TSO, but that's not important)

Broad axe is a good 1H option. It's not fast but is that really so important that there needs to be another axe?

[Utis]

I'm trying a long blades user right now. The damage output on average seems okay, so far. But, while it is rather satisfying to kill bats while moving, I'm not sure that I like not being in full control where my damage goes to. I think it can be even harmful, e.g. when a monster kills itself that I intended to use as a meatshield while retreating from a dangerous long range foe.

What's the word on great swords on heavy armour users? "Avoid at all costs" or "it's meh, but okay if you have nothing better"?

[vergil]

What's the word on great swords on heavy armour users? "Avoid at all costs" or "it's meh, but okay if you have nothing better"?

As such, I'd say it's rather "Avoid axes at any point because it is bad to fight in a wrong spot". But that's just me.
It doesn't matter what you use. It's all about how you do it. Great swords were quite enjoyable even without riposte. Now, they've got a little nifty trick to pull off once in a millennium.

If you're running from a long ranged dangerous foe with a meatshield for a one hit - don't. You'll die tired. Use a scroll of blinking, fog, fear, or Ctrl+Q.

[archaeo]

Ctrl+Q.

This is the best way to run away from monsters. It's an instant action that takes no turns and perfectly protects you from every attack in the game. I highly recommend it.

(repose riposte (e: dang phone) seems kind of gimmicky and cute and I can't wait until we're all insisting it's broken in 2017)

[Utis]

Well, I'm sure in 2017 you will both have people insisting it's crazy good and people insisting it's useless. Me, I'm just trying to decide whether and in what circumstances I'd like to choose longblades over other weapon types, other things being equal.

@vergil: I don't understand that comment. Why would I want to use an escape consumable in a situation that can be easily solved through moving? I might need it in a situation that I can't solve by moving. Besides, solving such problems once in a while is a welcome break from the usual "autoexplore, retreat, tab tab tab" routine.

If riposte triggers frequently enough, then the extra attacks factor in the weapon's average damage. But if for a heavy armour char with low EV (in the beginning of the game), riposte just happens once in a blue moon, then a reduction by 2 in base damage for great swords is a little bit too big for my taste.

Otherwise: On the one hand, it's sure nice too deal damage while moving with a fast foe around a corner in order to get out of sight of its pack.

But right now I think having no control on where the riposte part of my damage output goes might bug me a little more than I originally thought. E.g. when I want to kill an orc high priest in Orc while surrounded by vanilla orcs. The vanilla orcs can't harm be, but the high priest can. And against that one my long blade is just a weaker weapon compared to its maces&flails counterpart. It's the same reason why I dislike axes. (Except that with LB this makes digging a killhole and retreating to it more attractive for more encounters. And I'm certainly not going to do that all the time.)

Or am I misunderstanding something in the mechanics?

Otherwise, riposte seems like a buff in damage output for high EV characters. So, it might be attractiv for conjurations heavy chars who would use spells to kill the aforementioned example-orc priest.

[CypherZel]

I tried it with a triple sword on a heavy armour dude, was actually pretty fun accidentally moving and getting kills for it lol, It still comes into effect even when building armour with dodging so I think long blades are still a good choice for that type of style

[genericpseudonym]

What's the word on great swords on heavy armour users? "Avoid at all costs" or "it's meh, but okay if you have nothing better"?

As such, I'd say it's rather "Avoid axes at any point because it is bad to fight in a wrong spot". But that's just me.
It doesn't matter what you use. It's all about how you do it. Great swords were quite enjoyable even without riposte. Now, they've got a little nifty trick to pull off once in a millennium.

If you're running from a long ranged dangerous foe with a meatshield for a one hit - don't. You'll die tired. Use a scroll of blinking, fog, fear, or Ctrl+Q.

Intentionally positioning to cleave on as many things as possible is stupid*, yes. And when you're fighting in optimal conditions (i.e., against only a single enemy at a time), axes do less damage for more xp than other weapon types.
But there are plenty of situations where you can't retreat to a 1-tile corridor. Perhaps you're in Snake and a guardian serpent surrounds you with baddies. You can no longer choose to fight one enemy at a time, and so axes give an advantage over other weapon types here. See also: Vaults:5, where the corridors at the sides are two wide, so no matter how good your positioning is you may still have to fight 2 enemies at once.

*except maybe with vamp/makhleb and weak enemies

[Utis]

Wait ... it was late yesterday when I wrote my last post. After reading about riposte I was assuming that it works comparable to the shield mechanics. But that's not actually the case, is it? When surrounded by 8 melee enemies, I can actually have 8 ripostes in a turn with equal chance?

Then basically long blades now have an advantage in some tactical situations (repositioning adjacent to melee monsters) and a disadvantage in some others (meleeing casters, using weaker monsters as shields). Right? That doesn't sound too bad, then. Still not sure that I like it, though, but maybe more as a matter of taste.

[Konedar]

After some time out of DCSS I returned to it to try new LB.
I made a dedicated retaliation build, MiGl of Chei (stat bonus to increase both EV and headbutt retaliation).
I admit I got very lucky with the RNG but I won with 4 runes in 33k turns that is way below my average (I don't speedrun), I almost never had to rest.
Monsters often got killed just by retaliations while I was walking around ignoring them (well not the dangerous ones ofc).
The downside that sometimes monsters used as meat shield get auto killed is real, but it's not so bad.