PSA: MR is not required to win the game
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Tartarus Sorceror
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Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
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Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
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Slime Squisher
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Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
Zot:5 on easy mode video
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Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
Ziggurat Zagger
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Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
The problem is that you can die to 1% paralysis from full HP at any stage of the game.
It does not mean that you will die but you can. That's the problem, unavoidable deaths which are relatively easy to fix (just reduce paralysis duration to 2-3 turns so you can die if you were fighting a group at half HP with paralyzers in view or something rare like unique or Ancient Lich but not a single monster at full HP which can be met 9 times on the same floor).
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
What do you when you meet 9 Orc Sorcerers? You don't have Silence spell (too early), you don't have 9 scrolls of silence (it's a rare scroll).
So you gamble, you minimize your risk but you still can die if you are unlucky. Especially if you rely on Dodging.
Species with low HP who rely on Dodging have amazing natural MR (Sp, Fe) so I guess devs recognize problem with Paralysis.
Let's change paralysis to set both AC and EV to 2, that would trigger attention from devs and will prompt them to change paralysis mechanic.
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Dungeon Master
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Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
In my opinion, you shouldn't discuss the horrible, rare events. Sure, paralysis can kill anyone if enough bad things happen at the same time. The real question should be: how often does it happen on average? And on average to good players? Etc.
Ziggurat Zagger
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Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
Yes, you are right if we look at that from this angle. Paralyzers make me change my equipment and tactics a lot, also it is exciting when you know you can be banished/paralyzed and you survive somehow.
Is it possible to change paralysis to always give last action to player? I mean instead of dying you have 1HP when paralysis ends.
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Barkeep
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Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
Dungeon Master
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Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
This is what meant by "crude" above: yes, watching your character die while paralysed is not fun, and you may feel cheated. But the mechanic *does* something: you have to adapt, and if don't (or sometimes: can't), you may die. I claim it's effective, and I'd only be willing to let it go if someone comes up with a working replacement.
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Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
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Tartarus Sorceror
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Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
And yeah, QW shows that if you're willing to throw enough tabbers at the dungeon, you'll get some wins, so sure, MR isn't needed to win, just like thinking isn't needed, nor is doing anything except pressing 'o' and 'tab'. It may be true, but it's not exactly advice.
Dungeon Master
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Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
dowan wrote:Why do you think unavoidable deaths are sometimes good?
dowan wrote:the devs see no possible way to completely prevent them without also watering the game down considerably.
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Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
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Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
There are probably about 1000 such morgues.
Tartarus Sorceror
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Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
CanOfWorms wrote:dowan wrote:Why do you think unavoidable deaths are sometimes good?dowan wrote:the devs see no possible way to completely prevent them without also watering the game down considerably.
Yes, those are two statements. One says "Why do you think this thing is good when it happens" the other says "The devs acknowledge this thing is a necessary evil to accomplish a good game"
In other words, saying it's good means it's good. Saying we can't think of a way not to ruin the game while fixing this is saying it's not good, but we're stuck with it. Dpeg said statement #1. The dev document says statement #2. They're basically opposite statements.
Tartarus Sorceror
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Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
dynast wrote:Morgue of a game that was won with ZERO MR or im calling bullshit on this whole thread.
duvessa wrote:Here's one with no MR other than innate experience level MR: http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/minmay/morgue-minmay-20160527-175117.txt
There are probably about 1000 such morgues.
unless dynast meant literally zero but duvessa's OP is I think pretty clearly talking about "you don't need to get MR gear to win, guys". I guess I can go get a win with 0 pips of MR if I can find enough MR- gear in a game soon, if that'll prove the point?
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Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
duvessa wrote:Here's one with no MR other than innate experience level MR: http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/minmay/morgue-minmay-20160527-175117.txt
There are probably about 1000 such morgues.
I can get less mr than that and even then i need that mr. Im talking mr- gear from d:4 to d:win.
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Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
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Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
dowan wrote:This is the advice section,
Oh shit, i shouldnt be here
Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
Dungeon Master
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Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
I've died to having low MR several times, but almost always in cases where I was making several other mistakes at the same time and trusting my character to make it through anyway. It's very hard to die to paralysis in particular if you aren't making several mistakes.
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Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
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Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
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Dungeon Master
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Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
However, it's pretty silly to claim (if anyone is) that it isn't painful and unpleasant, and dare I say, hard for many players, to do the lategame without ~MR+++, which many species don't get naturally. I personally wouldn't blame anyone for whining about having only MR++ in vaults for example, there's a big difference between mark at 50% (or whatever it is) and 1%.
Ziggurat Zagger
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Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
oh right, it's minmay, he doesn't need rF in Zot, let me guess, "MR isn't useful but it's the least useless resistance"
Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
Sar wrote:"MR isn't useful but it's the least useless resistance"
Shoals Surfer
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Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
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Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
Sar wrote:so we went from "MR is the most important resistence in the game" to "MR isn't useful"
There is a difference between "you can win without MR" and "MR isn't useful". The former is true, the latter obviously isn't.
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Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
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Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
Yet, you can win the game without big dramas
Ziggurat Zagger
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Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
nago wrote:Yet, you can win the game without big dramas
I don't understand, where's the fun in that
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Shoals Surfer
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Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
Did I miss out on a meme?
Ziggurat Zagger
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Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
nago wrote:That you often find gods, potions and evokables in a game, while you sometimes you don't find MR+ item - at least in a useful form like mr+ rings or cloak.
Yet, you can win the game without big dramas
Let's assume I have 40% chance to win a game with MR+ items and 1% chance to win a game without MR+ items. Quite "big drama" IMHO.
Edit. Actually the numbers can be true, I failed to find any games (checked online only) where I won without MR+ items with species with 3 MR per XL.
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Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
Ziggurat Zagger
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Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
Full Windows 64 bit version can be downloaded at https://www.dropbox.com/s/7ufdv1a2qbn6b ... 9.zip?dl=0
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Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
Tartarus Sorceror
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Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
Sandman25 wrote:nago wrote:That you often find gods, potions and evokables in a game, while you sometimes you don't find MR+ item - at least in a useful form like mr+ rings or cloak.
Yet, you can win the game without big dramas
Let's assume I have 40% chance to win a game with MR+ items and 1% chance to win a game without MR+ items. Quite "big drama" IMHO.
Edit. Actually the numbers can be true, I failed to find any games (checked online only) where I won without MR+ items with species with 3 MR per XL.
Ziggurat Zagger
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Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
Shard1697 wrote:I really, really doubt it would make that much of a difference. Of my 59 wins, I think... 14 of them were without MR gear? And I'm truly not that good, I put on MR gear when I can get it. It's not like I'm avoiding it for extra challenge.
Are you sure? I checked first 15 your wins, didn't find any where you would have no MR items as species with 3 MR per XL.
Edit. Oh, found.
- Code:
3911 | D:6 | Paralysed by Grinder for 3 turns
12073 | Orc:2 | Paralysed by an orc sorcerer for 2 turns
12073 | Orc:2 | Paralysed by an orc sorcerer for 2 turns
12842 | Orc:2 | Paralysed by an orc sorcerer for 4 turns
58675 | Depths:2 | Paralysed by an ogre mage for 5 turns
60937 | Depths:3 | Paralysed by a sphinx for 4 turns
62171 | Depths:4 | Paralysed by a great orb of eyes for 6 turns
The character met just 1 Ancient Lich and it was in Vaults 5.
My character died on 5th turn of being paralyzed in Orc 2 (from full HP) for the first time and wasn't Minotaur...
Is Hexes goal to encourage player switch to plate armour if unlucky with MR?
Edit2. Another game is even more exciting. Octopode.
I am sure player needs luck to survive without MR items (like escaping Abyss in 12 turns from Orc 2 or surviving paralysis for 6 turns on D:5 as Octopode) and I don't like it.
MR is not needed to win, luck is needed to win when you don't have MR items with low natural MR species
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Tartarus Sorceror
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Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/ ... 171913.txt
- Code:
54772 | Depths:3 | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 3 turns
54971 | Depths:3 | Received a gift from Yredelemnul
55475 | Depths:3 | Found a one-way gate leading to the halls of Pandemonium.
55558 | Depths:4 | Noticed Margery
55572 | Depths:4 | Killed Margery
55572 | Depths:4 | Enslaved Margery
55807 | Depths:4 | Identified a +0 rod of shadows (10/10) (You found it on level 4 of the Depths)
55846 | Depths:4 | Paralysed by a vampire knight for 7 turns
55922 | Depths:4 | Received a gift from Yredelemnul
56122 | Depths:4 | Paralysed by a great orb of eyes for 4 turns
56125 | Depths:4 | Slain by a deep troll shaman
I know, i suck at this game.
Dungeon Master
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Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/ ... 232739.txt
http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Lasty/morgu ... 015226.txt
That's just scanning my last 30 wins. If I allow ones that have a ring of MR+ in inventory, I could add another dozen or so. Since I wasn't trying to arbitrarily meet a goal, I kept the rings in inventory on those characters as an emergency option, whether or not I ever used them.
Abyss Ambulator
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Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
An example of when you shouldn't wear an item just because of the resist would be something like: "The -5 gloves of the trash bin {rF+ MR+}"
Realistically, what else are you going to use in your ring slots? Maybe slaying if you find it, but it isn't that common, and I would wear rF/rC/MR over +2 or +3 slay if I had no resists otherwise.
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Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
Ziggurat Zagger
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Re: PSA: MR is not required to win the game
Lasty wrote:http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/Lasty/morgue-Lasty-20160508-164714.txt
http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/ ... 232739.txt
http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Lasty/morgu ... 015226.txt
That's just scanning my last 30 wins. If I allow ones that have a ring of MR+ in inventory, I could add another dozen or so. Since I wasn't trying to arbitrarily meet a goal, I kept the rings in inventory on those characters as an emergency option, whether or not I ever used them.
Note that none of those are with MR 3 species. The HE and Dg also survived several cases of paralysis (6 turns by an AL!), so well done!
Siegurt wrote:I would wear ac or ev +6 over mr/rc/rf rings in most situations.
FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWrNaAKBaFi{MiDeMfDe}{DrAKTrAMGhEnGnWz}
{PaBeDjFi}OgAKPaCAGnCjOgCKMfAEAtCKSpCjDEEE{HOSu
Bloat: 17: RaRoPrPh{GuStGnCa}{ArEtZoNb}KiPaAnDrBXDBQOApDaMeAGBiOCNKAsFnFlUs{RoBoNeWi
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