PSA: MR is not required to win the game

[duvessa]

thats all

[Arrhythmia]

look, I can't be the reason i'm losing. that's just stupid!

[ydeve]

Yes, but rF and MR let me play much more sloppily.

[4Hooves2Appendages]

In your humble opinion, other than tactics, patience and spoilers, what is required?

[duvessa]

not MR

[ZoFy]

I think knowing this would actually decrease average player's chances to win the game.

[Magipi]

PSA?

[4Hooves2Appendages]

Prostate-specific Antigen.

[Sandman25]

Nothing is required to win the game, even human brains.
The problem is that you can die to 1% paralysis from full HP at any stage of the game.
It does not mean that you will die but you can. That's the problem, unavoidable deaths which are relatively easy to fix (just reduce paralysis duration to 2-3 turns so you can die if you were fighting a group at half HP with paralyzers in view or something rare like unique or Ancient Lich but not a single monster at full HP which can be met 9 times on the same floor).

[Sandman25]

I mean what do you do if Ancient Lich LCSs you for half HP? You read blinking. Could you avoid it? Yes, cast Silence (you can have the spell easily) or read scroll of silence (the monster is very rare).
What do you when you meet 9 Orc Sorcerers? You don't have Silence spell (too early), you don't have 9 scrolls of silence (it's a rare scroll).
So you gamble, you minimize your risk but you still can die if you are unlucky. Especially if you rely on Dodging.
Species with low HP who rely on Dodging have amazing natural MR (Sp, Fe) so I guess devs recognize problem with Paralysis.

Let's change paralysis to set both AC and EV to 2, that would trigger attention from devs and will prompt them to change paralysis mechanic.

[dpeg]

Sandman: Unavoidable deaths are not necessarily bad. I agree that the paralysis mechanic is very crude, but does dealing with it depend on player skill? I think so, and with paralysis increasing game depth, I'm fine with it.

In my opinion, you shouldn't discuss the horrible, rare events. Sure, paralysis can kill anyone if enough bad things happen at the same time. The real question should be: how often does it happen on average? And on average to good players? Etc.

[Sandman25]

dpeg

Yes, you are right if we look at that from this angle. Paralyzers make me change my equipment and tactics a lot, also it is exciting when you know you can be banished/paralyzed and you survive somehow.

Is it possible to change paralysis to always give last action to player? I mean instead of dying you have 1HP when paralysis ends.

[njvack]

Additional PSA: MR makes winning the game much more convenient.

[dpeg]

Sandman: Sure, you can make paralysis less aggravating. But my point is that doing so makes the game less deep. For example, if getting out of it with 1 HP is guaranteed, then everyone will blink, heal etc. Suddenly, paralysis would have moved from an extremely serious issue to a much more harmless liability, leading to shouts of "annoying tedium" and "remove because it doesn't do anything".

This is what meant by "crude" above: yes, watching your character die while paralysed is not fun, and you may feel cheated. But the mechanic *does* something: you have to adapt, and if don't (or sometimes: can't), you may die. I claim it's effective, and I'd only be willing to let it go if someone comes up with a working replacement.

[zxc23]

Capping paralysis duration to 3 or 4 turns doesn't result in any loss of depth. The best play remains the same. It just gets rid of extreme scenarios which do occur and aren't fun. I can only imagine positive effects from such a change.

[dowan]

I'm surprised to see you say unavoidable deaths aren't necessarily bad dpeg. I thought the design doc spelled out pretty well that in a perfect world there would be no unavoidable deaths, but the devs see no possible way to completely prevent them without also watering the game down considerably. Why do you think unavoidable deaths are sometimes good?

And yeah, QW shows that if you're willing to throw enough tabbers at the dungeon, you'll get some wins, so sure, MR isn't needed to win, just like thinking isn't needed, nor is doing anything except pressing 'o' and 'tab'. It may be true, but it's not exactly advice.

[CanOfWorms]

Why do you think unavoidable deaths are sometimes good?

the devs see no possible way to completely prevent them without also watering the game down considerably.

[dynast]

Morgue of a game that was won with ZERO MR or im calling bullshit on this whole thread.

[4Hooves2Appendages]

I guess that's not possible because all species of innate MR. Maybe there's a species idea in here somewhere...

[duvessa]

Here's one with no MR other than innate experience level MR: http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/minmay/morgue-minmay-20160527-175117.txt
There are probably about 1000 such morgues.

[dowan]

Why do you think unavoidable deaths are sometimes good?

the devs see no possible way to completely prevent them without also watering the game down considerably.

Yes, those are two statements. One says "Why do you think this thing is good when it happens" the other says "The devs acknowledge this thing is a necessary evil to accomplish a good game"

In other words, saying it's good means it's good. Saying we can't think of a way not to ruin the game while fixing this is saying it's not good, but we're stuck with it. Dpeg said statement #1. The dev document says statement #2. They're basically opposite statements.

[Shard1697]

Morgue of a game that was won with ZERO MR or im calling bullshit on this whole thread.

Here's one with no MR other than innate experience level MR: http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/minmay/morgue-minmay-20160527-175117.txt
There are probably about 1000 such morgues.

Yeah, I'm not very good and even I have like 14 wins with no MR gear. Including my first win ever, and I have a couple with characters that both have no MR gear and aren't max level so they have below the ++ MR you normally get from just leveling up. [x] [x]

unless dynast meant literally zero but duvessa's OP is I think pretty clearly talking about "you don't need to get MR gear to win, guys". I guess I can go get a win with 0 pips of MR if I can find enough MR- gear in a game soon, if that'll prove the point?

[dynast]

Here's one with no MR other than innate experience level MR: http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/minmay/morgue-minmay-20160527-175117.txt
There are probably about 1000 such morgues.

I can get less mr than that and even then i need that mr. Im talking mr- gear from d:4 to d:win.

[dowan]

I guess... but once again, how is that advice? Are you suggesting players should just not wear MR gear? I know duvessa also likes to talk about how unnecessary elemental resists are, so clearly the idea isn't that you should wear items with resistance instead. This is the advice section, not the pointless statement section. That's CYC!

[Dungeoneer]

well no shit duvessa.

[dynast]

This is the advice section,

Oh shit, i shouldnt be here

[duvessa]

I posted this because I'm sick of people whining about not finding MR items when MR is not necessary or even altogether that useful

[Lasty]

I agree w/ the OP. I think people substantially overrate MR, and that generally there are good ways to deal with MR-checking threats without it. I frequently do Vaults without any MR+ gear, even on species w/ bad natural MR. I probably have a lot of no-MR+-equipment wins because I don't particularly prioritize it, tho I'm not going to bother to check.

I've died to having low MR several times, but almost always in cases where I was making several other mistakes at the same time and trusting my character to make it through anyway. It's very hard to die to paralysis in particular if you aren't making several mistakes.

[crate]

Banishment is the main thing I want MR for. Anything else you can deal with unless you're a mummy, though it's pretty annoying in a few cases (particularly vault sentinels marking you).

[Hands]

Playing with bad MR is tedious though. Sure it's just a convenience, but as a human player the more the inconveniences mount up the more likely you are to make a mistake and die.

[advil]

I've done low-MR lategame stuff as much as anyone with my number of wins. It comes up fairly regularly, and I agree it's not required -- with current balancing if you want to be an ok player you should probably expect to have to figure out how to do the lategame of a 3-5 rune game with a good probability of confuse/paralyze/mark in places (MR++ or even MR+).

However, it's pretty silly to claim (if anyone is) that it isn't painful and unpleasant, and dare I say, hard for many players, to do the lategame without ~MR+++, which many species don't get naturally. I personally wouldn't blame anyone for whining about having only MR++ in vaults for example, there's a big difference between mark at 50% (or whatever it is) and 1%.

[Sar]

so we went from "MR is the most important resistence in the game" to "MR isn't useful"

oh right, it's minmay, he doesn't need rF in Zot, let me guess, "MR isn't useful but it's the least useless resistance"

[duvessa]

"MR isn't useful but it's the least useless resistance"

i've actually said this almost verbatim

[TonberryJam]

melee classes would die with no mr unless they played cookie cutter builds

[Magipi]

so we went from "MR is the most important resistence in the game" to "MR isn't useful"

There is a difference between "you can win without MR" and "MR isn't useful". The former is true, the latter obviously isn't.

[Sar]

You can also win without gods, potions, any evocable items or amulets, as proven by the MuMo challenge winners. So what?

[nago]

That you often find gods, potions and evokables in a game, while you sometimes you don't find MR+ item - at least in a useful form like mr+ rings or cloak.
Yet, you can win the game without big dramas

[Sar]

Yet, you can win the game without big dramas

I don't understand, where's the fun in that

[removeelyvilon]

I don't understand, this topic isn't controversial at all.

Did I miss out on a meme?

[Sandman25]

That you often find gods, potions and evokables in a game, while you sometimes you don't find MR+ item - at least in a useful form like mr+ rings or cloak.
Yet, you can win the game without big dramas

Let's assume I have 40% chance to win a game with MR+ items and 1% chance to win a game without MR+ items. Quite "big drama" IMHO.

Edit. Actually the numbers can be true, I failed to find any games (checked online only) where I won without MR+ items with species with 3 MR per XL.

[ajon]

Not enough information to determine that I think. How many games did you play those species where you did not find/use MR items? It would probably require explicit testing where you don't actually pick up any MR on those species and then compare your actual winrate to your normal winrate. It should probably only take a couple hundred games I think .

[Sandman25]

No need to do complicated analysis: my last 2 characters died because they had no MR items, one of them was OP otherwise. Yes, that was my personal big drama.

Spoiler: show

The second character was a slowed mummy who died to orc wizard

[4Hooves2Appendages]

Well, I for one will continue to wear MR+ items in certain place if it doesn't completely mess up the character otherwise.

[Shard1697]

That you often find gods, potions and evokables in a game, while you sometimes you don't find MR+ item - at least in a useful form like mr+ rings or cloak.
Yet, you can win the game without big dramas

Let's assume I have 40% chance to win a game with MR+ items and 1% chance to win a game without MR+ items. Quite "big drama" IMHO.

Edit. Actually the numbers can be true, I failed to find any games (checked online only) where I won without MR+ items with species with 3 MR per XL.

I really, really doubt it would make that much of a difference. Of my 59 wins, I think... 14 of them were without MR gear? And I'm truly not that good, I put on MR gear when I can get it. It's not like I'm avoiding it for extra challenge.

[Sandman25]

I really, really doubt it would make that much of a difference. Of my 59 wins, I think... 14 of them were without MR gear? And I'm truly not that good, I put on MR gear when I can get it. It's not like I'm avoiding it for extra challenge.

Are you sure? I checked first 15 your wins, didn't find any where you would have no MR items as species with 3 MR per XL.

Edit. Oh, found.

  Code:

3911 | D:6      | Paralysed by Grinder for 3 turns
 12073 | Orc:2    | Paralysed by an orc sorcerer for 2 turns
 12073 | Orc:2    | Paralysed by an orc sorcerer for 2 turns
 12842 | Orc:2    | Paralysed by an orc sorcerer for 4 turns
 58675 | Depths:2 | Paralysed by an ogre mage for 5 turns
 60937 | Depths:3 | Paralysed by a sphinx for 4 turns
 62171 | Depths:4 | Paralysed by a great orb of eyes for 6 turns

The character met just 1 Ancient Lich and it was in Vaults 5.

My character died on 5th turn of being paralyzed in Orc 2 (from full HP) for the first time and wasn't Minotaur...


Is Hexes goal to encourage player switch to plate armour if unlucky with MR?

Edit2. Another game is even more exciting. Octopode.

  Code:

6024 | D:5      | Paralysed by an orc for 6 turns
42510 | Orc:2    | Paralysed by an ogre mage for 4 turns
 42547 | Orc:2    | Cast into level 2 of the Abyss (an ogre mage)
 42559 | Orc:2    | Escaped the Abyss
57532 | Depths:5 | Paralysed by a vampire knight for 6 turns

I am sure player needs luck to survive without MR items (like escaping Abyss in 12 turns from Orc 2 or surviving paralysis for 6 turns on D:5 as Octopode) and I don't like it.

MR is not needed to win, luck is needed to win when you don't have MR items with low natural MR species

[dynast]

The game that ended my DrWn streak:
http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/ ... 171913.txt

  Code:

 54772 | Depths:3 | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 3 turns
 54971 | Depths:3 | Received a gift from Yredelemnul
 55475 | Depths:3 | Found a one-way gate leading to the halls of Pandemonium.
 55558 | Depths:4 | Noticed Margery
 55572 | Depths:4 | Killed Margery
 55572 | Depths:4 | Enslaved Margery
 55807 | Depths:4 | Identified a +0 rod of shadows (10/10) (You found it on level 4 of the Depths)
 55846 | Depths:4 | Paralysed by a vampire knight for 7 turns
 55922 | Depths:4 | Received a gift from Yredelemnul
 56122 | Depths:4 | Paralysed by a great orb of eyes for 4 turns
 56125 | Depths:4 | Slain by a deep troll shaman

I know, i suck at this game.

[Lasty]

http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/ ... 164714.txt
http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/ ... 232739.txt
http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Lasty/morgu ... 015226.txt

That's just scanning my last 30 wins. If I allow ones that have a ring of MR+ in inventory, I could add another dozen or so. Since I wasn't trying to arbitrarily meet a goal, I kept the rings in inventory on those characters as an emergency option, whether or not I ever used them.

[tabstorm]

OP is technically correct, but if you choose not to use MR and/or rF/rC gear when there's no reason not to, you're playing chicken with the RNG.

An example of when you shouldn't wear an item just because of the resist would be something like: "The -5 gloves of the trash bin {rF+ MR+}"
Realistically, what else are you going to use in your ring slots? Maybe slaying if you find it, but it isn't that common, and I would wear rF/rC/MR over +2 or +3 slay if I had no resists otherwise.

[Siegurt]

I would wear ac or ev +6 over mr/rc/rf rings in most situations.

[Sprucery]

http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/Lasty/morgue-Lasty-20160508-164714.txt
http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/ ... 232739.txt
http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Lasty/morgu ... 015226.txt

That's just scanning my last 30 wins. If I allow ones that have a ring of MR+ in inventory, I could add another dozen or so. Since I wasn't trying to arbitrarily meet a goal, I kept the rings in inventory on those characters as an emergency option, whether or not I ever used them.

Note that none of those are with MR 3 species. The HE and Dg also survived several cases of paralysis (6 turns by an AL!), so well done!

I would wear ac or ev +6 over mr/rc/rf rings in most situations.

Me too. But I would definitely switch to MR in situations where that would make banishment/paralysis/mark significantly less probable. And in that case I would probably switch the other ring that isn't AC/EV +6. In any case, I like to keep AC/EV/Slay rings on as default and switch to resistances as needed.