Maces&Flails v Staves

[Rokirem]

I started out as Formicid Fighter (Shield&QuarterStaff) with the intent of using staves (cuz #lajatangmasterrace) but I found a really good mace on D:4, should I switch over to using Maces&Flails? The mace is the +12 mace of Ashenzari's Delight (weapon) {freeze, rF+ Stlth+}

This is a subject I don't really know much about. I know the mace is objectively better, but is it worth abandoning staves just for it?

[MainiacJoe]

They crosstrain, so I'd go ahead and use the mace that's better than your starting quarterstaff now. If a better mace comes along in the long run, great, or if a lajatang does, no big XP loss.

[TwoLeggedMammal]

That's an amazing weapon for D:4 and should help you to easily get through lair. I would still plan on switching to a 2H weapon at some point because you're a Formicid, but you have plenty of time to look for one. So what Joe said, pump some exp into it for now but that won't keep you tied to M&F the whole game.

[Rokirem]

Well, I went into an Ice Cave on Lair:3 and it was the typical walk into a room with two ice-statues around the corners. I thought I was clever and shafted around them as I was no match for their freezing cloud, and then walked down another corridor and saw an Ice Dragon, so once again, thinking myself clever, I went back to the entrance and shafted in a 180 degree arc to what I thought was the other side of the corridor with the dragon.Turns out it was the final room, and it had two Ice Dragons in it, I freaked out on my first/second turn (This is most likely the reason I died) and tried to run away, only to be pelted by their ice bolts. In these two turns or so I had lost 3/4ths of my health. So I quaffed a potion of invisibility, only to have one Ice Dragon shoot through the other one, to do 30 damage in a single bolt....RIP...But yeah, the mace was frikin awesome, it one-shotted like everything lol. The funny thing is, is that the only loot I saw in that last room was a single ring (It wasn't randart) and a pile of gold....

Tbh I think there needs to be a system to determine the creatures in Ice Caves/Sewers etc. Finding Purgy on D:2 (I think I had it happen on D:3 to me) seems ridiculous. I know you can always avoid them, but then what is the point of them spawning at all? What character would be able to kill two ice dragons by L:3?

[KoboldLord]

There is an easy/hard ice cavern split. Easy ones spawn in Lair and Orc, while hard ones spawn in later branches. I suppose the ice dragons are considered 'easy' because the monsters ramp up as you follow the path, and you get a chance to quit midway through if you realize how much worse it's going to get. Your sequence break took you off the intended path, I suppose, so you missed that exit portal.

Ice dragons are definitely not an easy battle in Lair 3, but they're doable if you found some basic cold resistance and have a reasonably suitable character to work with. You'll want to munch some consumables for them, though, and it helps if you check the .des to find out what the boss is going to be at the end of the cavern.

[Rokirem]

The ice cave had been nothing but ice-beasts and frost-imps, besides the two ice-statues. There was nothing left but the two dragons in that last room with the single f*cking ring and the pile of gold. From ice-beasts to ice-dragons is going 0-100 real quick.

[ydeve]

This is my experience with ice cave dragons as well. The ones with Frost Giants ramp up, but the ones with Ice Dragons are really sudden.

[Sar]

A good char can buff up and take on those dragons without rC. A Formicid is probably not a good character, though.

[Sandman25]

I think fsim will show that the "good" character is expected to die even vs a single Ice Dragon.
Cold Breath (3d24) is not a joke, also it has 3 attacks with 17 damage each, that's 51 damage per turn (with HD 12 so unlikely to miss often at that stage). I hope the dragon has 59 HP and not 120 it can...

[Rokirem]

Formicids have excellent aptitudes in shields, fighting, and armour, plus their unique ability to use two-handed weapons with a shield. They make very powerful fighters. The only reason they are thought of as bad characters (AS far as I am aware) is because of their lack of ability to berserk/haste/teleport. As long as you take advantage of shaft however I find that I am able to do very well with them. Except against Ice dragons on L:3.

[Sar]

they also have average HP and aptitudes, as opposed to something like a Minotaur, a generic melee dude, which has above average HP and apts

well, and they can also teleport, haste, berserk

[Rokirem]

I'm just trying to argue that formicids can be strong characters when you take advantage of the fact that they only need 15 skill for a large shield and it has a +3 aptitude, and use a two-handed weapon. Also what every happened to the amulet of stasis that would allow formicids to teleport/haste/berserk? Did the devs remove it? I thought it was a good little trinket.

[Sar]

you aren't guaranteed a large shield so I'm not sure how to "take an advantage" of that

I know some good players rate Fo higher, but for me they are the bottom tier species

[Sandman25]

It takes just 9 levels in shields for regular shield, with +2 aptitude it is almost free. I rate Fo higher than Hu, both for power and fun.

[Shard1697]

you aren't guaranteed a large shield so I'm not sure how to "take an advantage" of that

You still get normal shield requiring only 9 skill+2H weapon, which is strong, and can make murderholes almost all the time.

[Sar]

I honestly would rather be a Naga past early Dungeon or so.

[Sandman25]

I honestly would rather be a Naga past early Dungeon or so.

It reminds me "I would rather be Troll on D1"
Of course Naga becomes one of the best species past early Dungeon with those HP, AC and magic aptitudes.

[Sar]

Is that so? Okay.

[Sandman25]

Yes, I believe so. When I needed a zig cleared for clan during some tournament I went with Naga.

[Sar]

Nagas are good in Zigs but Zigs and "everything past early Dungeon" are somewhat different scenarios...

[Sandman25]

Nagas are good in Zigs but Zigs and "everything past early Dungeon" are somewhat different scenarios...

"The game is won after reaching Lair"

Spoiler: show

Joke of course. I lost 5 NaEn in a row in Lair

[duvessa]

When I needed a zig cleared for clan during some tournament I went with Naga.

"The game is won after reaching Lair"

This is two non sequiturs in a row. You said "Naga becomes one of the best species past early dungeon", which suggests it should become one of the best species in Lair at the latest - the only way it would make sense to mention ziggurats is if ziggurats are typically done immediately after "early dungeon", which I assure you they are not, even with the most generous reading of "early dungeon".
The second quote is true unironically, but is completely irrelevant to the topic.

[Sandman25]

Good catch.

Serious reply: For me early game includes Lair, Orc and D15. Middle game is 2 rune branches and Vault 1-4. Late game is Depths, Vaults 5 and Zot.
Not sure where to put Elf and Crypt. Probably middle game also.

[Sar]

Most people would disagree. Is a distinction like that really useful if you use it in a way most people don't?

[Sandman25]

Ok, melee Naga is one of the worst species in Lair.

[duvessa]

"Naga becomes one of the best species past early Dungeon" suggests you're talking about the branch called Dungeon. Not Lair and Orc.

[Sandman25]

Still I would prefer Fo over Na in Lair. With manual exploration and shouting you can almost always fight a single monster at a time since all Lair levels have rock walls.