How does the sacred scourge stack up to 2-handed weapons?

[PowerOfKaishin]

Is it considered better than any equivalent usable-by-average-size 2-hander that also has a holy wrath brand? The whip hits every 5 auts instead of 7, despite doing less damage, and it rarely, if ever, misses.

[chequers]

Here's how you test things like this yourself with FSIM:

Download offline dcss and start a new game. Enter wizmode with: & then yes
Set your species: &r
Set your level: &l
Set your skills: &A and &S
Equip your character: &%
You can create a sacred scourge as follows: &% then "sacred scourge ego:holy_wrath"
Once you create the item, pick it up and change the plusses with &t

Once you have your character set up, you can test their offensive ability against different monsters with: &f then "ogre".

[PowerOfKaishin]

Unbelievable. Against both the ogre and an adder with my current skill levels (20 Axes and 14 M&F), the sacred scourge +10 outdamages a battleaxe of holy wrath +10

Against a juggernaut, the sacred scourge loses, but if both skills are at 20, it wins.

Tried it out against an imp as well. Sacred Scourge still wins. Man these things are godly holy shit.

[crate]

Sacred scourge is 12/5 (damage / delay), so of course it outdamages battleaxe (15/7). Comparing not-axes to axes is bad practice since axes pay quite significantly for being able to cleave (similarly, polearms pay for being able to reach). Compare to great mace instead, though of course the sacred scourge is going to be very similar.

[duvessa]

Unbelievable. Against both the ogre and an adder with my current skill levels (20 Axes and 14 M&F), the sacred scourge +10 outdamages a battleaxe of holy wrath +10

an extremely common weapon isn't as good as an extremely rare weapon that usually requires worshipping a specific god? unbelievable!

[PowerOfKaishin]

Unbelievable. Against both the ogre and an adder with my current skill levels (20 Axes and 14 M&F), the sacred scourge +10 outdamages a battleaxe of holy wrath +10

an extremely common weapon isn't as good as an extremely rare weapon that usually requires worshipping a specific god? unbelievable!

It's one-handed. I ran under the assumption that 2-handers were always better for raw DPS.

[chequers]

You tested against two enemies with 1 AC. Try comparing to an eveningstar or great mace of holy wrath and use enemies with more AC, like hell sentinels. That will show you when sacred scourge is outclassed.

[crate]

Sacred scourge is always at least as good as eveningstar of holy, even against Dispater. I guess maybe you could run into an 80 ac gargoyle ghost or something, maybe it's not better then, but uh I don't suggest fighting that 80 ac gargoyle ghost to begin with.

It's very similar to great mace of holy wrath.

btw make sure you're testing with unarmed combat set to 0

[chequers]

Really?

Human with 20 m&f, 15 fighting, 0 other skills, enemy is a Hell Sentinel.

+2 sacred scourge:

  Code:

            AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
 Attacking:      6.9 |     72 |      89% |   6.2 |    50  |  2.00 |     12.4

+2 great mace of holy wrath:

  Code:

            AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
 Attacking:     13.3 |    102 |      88% |  11.7 |    70  |  1.43 |     16.8

[crate]

Well +2 okay, but you should test +9 because no one uses anything less than +9 in extended these days because you have so many enchant weapon scrolls. And yes, against hell sentinels or Dispater, the great mace will do more damage. Against stone giant (more representative of the AC you actually face, even in extended) the great mace is only a small bit better.

[Shard1697]

For a few enemies, big 2H weapon will be better, but sacred scourge still does enough damage to those enemies and is better against everything else. Also it lets you use a shield, which is not nothing.

Unbelievable. Against both the ogre and an adder with my current skill levels (20 Axes and 14 M&F), the sacred scourge +10 outdamages a battleaxe of holy wrath +10

an extremely common weapon isn't as good as an extremely rare weapon that usually requires worshipping a specific god? unbelievable!

The idea that base damage is more important than anything else is spread around quite a bit, so it's understandable people believe it. No need to be rude.

[MainiacJoe]

Nothing rude in what duvessa said. It was just the observation that if the devs have gone to the trouble of making something rare, it's probably good. Sacred scourge ought to be worth the trouble it takes to get one. I'm sympathetic to wanting to "make sure" the because I'm a inveterate min/maxer, but I think duvessa's principle that rarity correlates fairly well with value is a good rule of thumb.

[Sar]

Fixedarts are pretty rare and a lot of them suck.

[tabstorm]

Who cares about "representative" enemies, in any branch of the game? Most representative enemies are chaff that are never going to kill you. The top tier 1hs are generally worse against the top few threats in a branch even when using a shield, because they tend to have higher AC. I think it's better to more effectively kill enemies that can threaten you than it is to more efficiently mop up garbage.

[crate]

Brimstone Fiends, ice fiends, and tzitzimitls have about the same AC as stone giants (15 or 12), and everything else I could find has less than 15 AC. Unless you care only about hell sentinels and dispater, stone giant is a better test than hell sentinel.

[Sandman25]

It depends. As you know antimagic weapon is really great in extended, especially vs scariest monsters like Lom Lobon. Why is that provided holy or even vorpal weapon does more damage? Because extra defense can be useful. Think about shield as about extra defense. Of course the greater your AC/EV are, the less extra defense you need. But the best AC/EV is given by Chei who provides a great bonus for damage and is slow also so unsurprisingly a shield is useful even in this case. Blocking melee attack of Antaeus or Iron Shot of Iron Giant is quite nice.

Edit. My reply was for tabstorm.

[tabstorm]

  Code:

stats 22 8 23, defenses 38 / 23 / (17), all resists, XL25
Skills: 24 fighting, 23 armor, 18 dodging, 15 shields, +9 great mace of holy wrath/sacred scoure of holy wrath

vs.

brimstone fiend

great mace
           AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
 Attacking:     30.1 |    152 |      86% |  25.9 |    70  |  1.43 |     37.0
 Defending:      2.3 |     24 |      88% |   2.0 |   100  |  1.00 |      2.0

sacred scourge
            AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
 Attacking:     19.8 |    130 |      87% |  17.4 |    50  |  2.00 |     34.7
 Defending:      1.6 |     23 |      70% |   1.1 |   100  |  1.00 |      1.1

ice fiend

great mace
            AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
 Attacking:     30.4 |    192 |      86% |  26.3 |    70  |  1.43 |     37.6
_Defending:      9.3 |     70 |      76% |   7.1 |   100  |  1.00 |      7.1

sacred scourge
         
  AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
 Attacking:     19.8 |    101 |      87% |  17.2 |    50  |  2.00 |     34.5
_Defending:      8.1 |     72 |      52% |   4.3 |   100  |  1.00 |      4.3

shadow fiend

great mace
            AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
 Attacking:     29.9 |    143 |      86% |  26.0 |    70  |  1.43 |     37.1
_Defending:      2.2 |     23 |      88% |   1.9 |   100  |  1.00 |      1.9

sacred scourge

            AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
 Attacking:     19.8 |    110 |      87% |  17.2 |    50  |  2.00 |     34.4
_Defending:      1.8 |     27 |      68% |   1.2 |   100  |  1.00 |      1.2
 

The great mace has better av.eff.dam in every case. my offline version dosen't have tzitzimitls in it because I was too lazy to update it, but I think the results will be similar. I think you need pretty low strength for the scourge to be better.

[crate]

yes, it is a small bit better, as i said earlier

[tabstorm]

Inspired by the shields thread, yesterday I ran fsim tests against several Lair branch threats. Here's what I found:

  Code:

+9 demon whip of freezing vs +9 great mace of freezing against various foes

i) S-branch end major threats

HOGl of No God, Stats: 17 8 14
Relevant skills: 20.9 maces, 14.0 fighting, 14.0 armour, 12.0 dodging - 33 AC 11 EV
This is fairly representative of a good  character getting its first rune. I forgot to up stats while building the character in wizmode

a) +9 great mace of freezing

vs.

Emperor Scorpion

            AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
 Attacking:     14.6 |     71 |      69% |  10.2 |    70  |  1.43 |     14.6
_Defending:      4.0 |     32 |      98% |   4.0 |   100  |  1.00 |      4.0


Ghost Moth

            AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
 Attacking:     18.1 |     60 |      74% |  13.5 |    70  |  1.43 |     19.3
 Defending:      2.9 |     26 |      99% |   2.9 |    83  |  1.20 |      3.5


Spark Wasp

            AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
 Attacking:     19.4 |     67 |      65% |  12.6 |    70  |  1.43 |     18.0
_Defending:     10.3 |     38 |      69% |   7.2 |    66  |  1.52 |     10.9


Thorn Hunter

            AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
 Attacking:     19.9 |     71 |      75% |  15.0 |    70  |  1.43 |     21.5
_Defending:      3.9 |     32 |      92% |   3.6 |    83  |  1.20 |      4.4


Hydra
            AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
 Attacking:     25.5 |     87 |      86% |  22.2 |    70  |  1.43 |     31.6
_Defending:      5.1 |     34 |      99% |   5.1 |   166  |  0.60 |      3.1


Merfolk Impaler

            AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
 Attacking:     23.4 |     68 |      56% |  13.3 |    70  |  1.43 |     19.0
_Defending:      2.5 |     18 |      71% |   1.8 |   100  |  1.00 |      1.8


Merfolk Javelineer

            AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
 Attacking:     23.6 |     77 |      63% |  15.1 |    70  |  1.43 |     21.6
_Defending:      1.8 |     18 |      75% |   1.3 |   100  |  1.00 |      1.3


Greater Naga

           AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
 Attacking:     20.3 |     80 |      73% |  15.0 |    70  |  1.43 |     21.5
 Defending:      3.4 |     23 |      84% |   2.8 |   100  |  1.00 |      2.8
_The greater naga loses its grip on you.


Shock Serpent

            AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
 Attacking:     24.2 |     88 |      62% |  15.0 |    70  |  1.43 |     21.5
_Defending:      4.5 |     27 |      68% |   3.1 |    66  |  1.52 |      4.7


b) +9 Demon whip, same character with 5 shields and a +2 Buckler

Emperor Scorpion

            AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
 Attacking:      8.0 |     48 |      71% |   5.7 |    50  |  2.00 |     11.5
_Defending:      3.3 |     28 |      93% |   3.0 |   100  |  1.00 |      3.0


Ghost Moth

           AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
 Attacking:     11.5 |     41 |      75% |   8.7 |    50  |  2.00 |     17.4
 Defending:      2.8 |     24 |      99% |   2.8 |    83  |  1.20 |      3.3


Spark Wasp

            AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
 Attacking:     12.6 |     49 |      68% |   8.7 |    50  |  2.00 |     17.4
_Defending:     10.9 |     38 |      56% |   6.2 |    66  |  1.52 |      9.3

Thorn Hunter

            AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
 Attacking:     12.8 |     54 |      78% |  10.1 |    50  |  2.00 |     20.1
_Defending:      3.5 |     32 |      84% |   3.0 |    83  |  1.20 |      3.6

Hydra
            AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
 Attacking:     17.8 |     57 |      86% |  15.5 |    50  |  2.00 |     30.9
_Defending:      5.7 |     37 |      99% |   5.7 |   142  |  0.70 |      4.0

Merfolk Impaler

            AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
 Attacking:     16.8 |     48 |      60% |  10.1 |    50  |  2.00 |     20.3
_Defending:      4.3 |     26 |      60% |   2.6 |   100  |  1.00 |      2.6

Merfolk Javelineer

            AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
 Attacking:     16.4 |     56 |      69% |  11.4 |    50  |  2.00 |     22.8
_Defending:      1.7 |     17 |      61% |   1.1 |   100  |  1.00 |      1.1

Greater Naga

            AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
 Attacking:     13.3 |     47 |      77% |  10.2 |    50  |  2.00 |     20.5
 Defending:      3.0 |     21 |      70% |   2.1 |   100  |  1.00 |      2.1

Shock Serpent

            AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
 Attacking:     16.8 |     50 |      65% |  11.1 |    50  |  2.00 |     22.1
_Defending:      5.0 |     27 |      53% |   2.7 |    66  |  1.52 |      4.1


Basically, unless you are going against enemies with very high evasion and little to no AC, the great mace is better. Also, you would need a demon whip in the first place. With only 12 skill, the demon whip will do about 2 less av.eff.dam. I think for this series of tests I used a +2 buckler as a shield, but I believe that if you test it with a regular shield the results are similar.

[crate]

the great mace is better because 17/7 is bigger than 11/5

dwhip can only be better with additive brand or with lots of slaying

[tabstorm]

Another neat thing is that the difference with the higher leveled test char I posted, using a demon whip, the difference in av.eff.dam between taking off and removing a shield is around 0.5, vs an iron giant.

[Sandman25]

Unfortunately fsim does not allow to test spells. That shield might save from a couple of iron shots while you are approaching Iron Giant (assume you have no choice like it's blocking stairs so you cannot lure it behind a corner).

But my main objection is that I don't use +0 shield and demon whip of not draining/electro/distortion without slaying if I have a great mace of freezing unless my defenses are very bad or melee is not my main method of killing things because that shield does not compensate decreased damage and requires more XP than great mace with non-large species. Shield of protection or protection from fire can be a reason to use the demon whip though.

[Rast]

Someone please set up a web interface to fsim please.

[Sandman25]

I think it won't help. Webtiles on CA fork allowed wizmode so I used &f there. Unfortunately when I tried &F the process was killed by server with message like "100% processor used"

[Sar]

Yeah, fsim is pretty taxing actually.