Conjurer gods

[dynast]

Why not? You don't have the infinite MP of Sif but Draw Power is pretty great, and you get the other abilities/passives as well anyway. MuFE of Ru was a lot of fun.

Ru doesnt gift you spells and instead ask you to sacrifice schools, that feels very hostile. A hybrid might work out though.

Mod edit: split from GDD

[Lasty]

All the gods that are best for conjurers don't gift spells. Ru may ask you to sacrifice some spell schools, but you don't have to take that sacrifice.

[Tiktacy]

All the gods that are best for conjurers don't gift spells. Ru may ask you to sacrifice some spell schools, but you don't have to take that sacrifice.

What gods are best for conjurers?

[Lasty]

In alphabetical order, Ash, Dith, Fedhas, Hep, Kiku, Makh, Oka, Ru, Yred. Possibly Zin, Gozag, Lucy, Jiyva.

Ah crap, Kiku gifts books! I forgot about that.

[dynast]

Dont go full duvessa, Lasty.

[HardboiledGargoyle]

Ash, Dith, Fedhas, Hep, Kiku, Makh, Oka, Ru, Yred. Possibly Zin, Gozag, Lucy, Jiyva.

you forgot Trog, Pakellas.

[Shard1697]

you joke because you don't think the gods listed are good for conjurations focused build, but ash's skill boost+monster detection is great for conj, dith's stealth boost+shadow spell mimicking is great for conj, fedha's mushrooms+oklobs are great backup for conj(well, anything), Ru makes monsters not attack often and gives you strong abilities which don't require invo training(so doesn't take away XP from training spell schools), kiku is always great for caster, mak is great for everyone because everyone wants HP, etc... not sure what the disagreement is really. just because they (mostly)don't directly boost conjurations doesn't mean they aren't overall better for a conjurations character than veh/sif.

[dynast]

The joke is someone having to explain the definition because the original poster decided to be a smartass and not give his definition.

When i talk about conjurers(which i wasnt, anyhow) i am talking about conjurers, as i conjurer i want a god that gives me conjurations, because it is more fun when you have more room to play with what you choose to, instead of going down to the optimal rabbit hole. Also he put gozag on the list, the guy who can fund a entire library before you get sif's first gift.

[Shard1697]

as i conjurer i want a god that gives me conjurations, because it is more fun when you have more room to play with what you choose to, instead of going down to the optimal rabbit hole.

ok, but Lasty was answering "What gods are best for conjurers?" not "What gods are most fun for conjurers"?

[Sandman25]

Can someone please tell me why monster detection is good for conjurers? Are you exploring with zero mana or what? Having rings/weapon cursed you cannot use staff of energy and rig of fire/cold. As a caster you are more likely to have Haste/Blink/Passage of Golubria castable so you can escape easier.
No serious argument about Dith, it's great indeed (yet inferior to Vehumet of course, getting level 6 spell faster (and getting them at all provided you don't need luck to find level 6 spells with Vehumet) is a huge boost and you are not going to train Invo for Shadow Form).
Fedhas? So you lose your mushrooms every time you need to retreat to restore mana?
Ru? So you made your already hard XP game of hybrid life even harder by making sacrifices and keeping 8 MP for Apocalypse?
Makh? Everyone wants HP? Do you wait for monsters to become adjacent before casting spells? I am typically always at 100% HP and <50% MP in any serious battle and that's when I start retreating (poor mushrooms)
Just because you can win without a god does not mean you should say those gods are superior to Vehumet. Sif Muna is easy too, it does not require high Invo but I don't like the channeling spam except with summoners.

[dynast]

as i conjurer i want a god that gives me conjurations, because it is more fun when you have more room to play with what you choose to, instead of going down to the optimal rabbit hole.

ok, but Lasty was answering "What gods are best for conjurers?" not "What gods are most fun for conjurers"?

And thats why i told him to not go full duvessa. Also, if the "magic gods" are not the best gods for a spellcaster such as a conjurer you got yourself a consistency problem. Not that i even agree with that claim.

[duvessa]

In alphabetical order, Ash, Dith, Fedhas, Hep, Kiku, Makh, Oka, Ru, Yred. Possibly Zin, Gozag, Lucy, Jiyva.

Ah crap, Kiku gifts books! I forgot about that.

Okawaru is useless for conjurers. The others you listed are good though.

Vehumet is bad for spellcasters because Vehumet is bad for everyone. It's not a consistency problem, it's just a shitty god being shit.

[Lasty]

Re: Okawaru, I like him on conjurer types because Oka saves me a decent chunk of XP and gets me somewhat better set of equipment than I'd normally get. Definitely not a first choice, but not bad. I should have left Oka off the list of "best" gods for conjurers.

@Sandman25, it sounds like you have a very specific playstyle in mind, and I can imagine that the better gods might not fit that as closely as you'd like. That said, given your list of objections to the gods I listed, it sounds like you're not really clear on what those gods offer to a conjurer-type.

[ydeve]

Oka doesn't save much xp for conjurors, he saves xp for hybrids.

[Sandman25]

@Lasty

Yes, when I am talking about conjurers I am talking about characters whose main tool for killing things is conjurations, not about corresponding backgrounds. With all those gods you listed you can be stuck with starting book for a long time. Of course those gods make it easier to switch to melee and it is quite reasonable (if they don't help with magic, they should help with melee, otherwise you wouldn't list them). For example, with Makhleb, Ash and Ru you can be below power curve for quite some time because both melee and spells will be weak.

[duvessa]

Re: Okawaru, I like him on conjurer types because Oka saves me a decent chunk of XP and gets me somewhat better set of equipment than I'd normally get. Definitely not a first choice, but not bad.

No, Okawaru is bad for this. Period. Even Vehumet is better, Sif and Ely are definitely better, everything else on your list is better. You are trading your god slot for 5 dodging and shields skill. Even the gods that memetically "do nothing" (Beogh, Zin, TSO) do more than that. I think you have a very unrealistic impression of either Okawaru gifts or conjurers. You are taking a bottom 5 option and calling it "not bad".

[Sandman25]

Shields skill is not even relevant here. Buckler takes just 4 skill levels and I believe no one uses regular shield with 10 skill levels activating heroism every time they want to remove spellcasting penalty.

[TonberryJam]

I'm less interested in the theme of the God, and rather how it effects the game mechanics. This removes me from the mindset that casters do well with caster themed Gods for example. Usually, Gods have interesting perks at affecting the game that make it better suited to a specific style of play.

[Sar]

I think Vehumet is fine... I'd say he's better than Makhleb, except demons are really awesome.

[Magipi]

Vehumet is bad for everyone. It's not a consistency problem, it's just a shitty god being shit.

I know that this goes against honorable Tavern traditions, but I still wish you'd explain this. Why is Veh bad? The gifts are bad? Or they come too late? Or mana regen is not good enough? Or wiz is not good enough?
Pretty much the only real problem I see that Veh does not give escape options, but half the gods don't give them either.

I think Vehumet is fine... I'd say he's better than Makhleb, except demons are really awesome.

And now this. So you say something that is quite the opposite of what everyone is saying, and still no need to explain anything because why bother.

[ydeve]

Vehs gifts are rather mediocre compared to actually having god abilities. Mp on kill is pretty useless pre-extended (wow, one extra fireball a fight, two if I'm lucky) and the extra range is honestly pretty meh. Wizardry on conjurations is kinda ok, but you still have rather heavy mp restrictions when you're trying to make use of the wizardry by casting the spells "early" and they don't have the spellpower they would have later.

So what we have is a so-so strategic benefit (gifted spells, usually 1-3 that fit in your school) and no meaningful tactical benefit for worshiping Veh. That's rather bad for a god when you could worship Dith or Ash.

[Sar]

Ash? You mean the god who does literally nothing until like mid-Lair?

Edit: also I don't think Veh is actually good, well I do but I'm probably wrong. I'd delete my post since it's Dungeon Crawling Advice, but I don't think I can anymore.

[ydeve]

Well, Veh also does nothing meaningful for you until mid-Lair when she starts gifting spells. Which if you're lucky you might be able to use then. So actually she often doesn't do anything for you until the S branches.

[Sar]

Wizardry usually kicks in earlier since Veh doesn't use arcane piety gaining methods.

[ydeve]

Past really early D, you should be able to survive on your starting book without needing the wiz boost anyways. I suppose getting sticky flame early does help survivability...

[Sar]

Past really early D, you should be able to survive on your starting book without needing

pretty much any god ability, no? Cj book is strong.

[duvessa]

Yeah ash is kind of bad too.

[Arrhythmia]

not a bad list lasty but i see you forgot the best conjurer god, Chei.

[Sandman25]

It looks like people forget that most book backgrounds are much better than all non-book background except Berserker so good players don't need help reaching middle Lair and Vehumet gifts just in time to solve problems with elemental resists. Extra range is extremely good with many schools, it's awesome when you can cast bolt of fire or fireball at those Yaktaurs without stepping forward or luring them behind a corner (I've just tested to be sure, both of those spells cannot reach last tile in view otherwise). For Earth spells the benefit is even greater as you can cast Iron Shot 4 times instead of 3 while the monster walks to you. It can be treated as 33% increase in damage. Even wizardry is useful as it either saves you some XP for other skills or with some luck allows to equip enhancer ring/staff instead of wizardry. MP restore is not as bad as it looks to some, natural conjurations playstyle includes much pillar-dancing and basically long fights so it combines nicely with MP regeneration. Also it is very common to kill multiple monsters with a single cast because many middle game spells are AoE. That extra Fireball can be 25% increase in damage.

TL/DR If Gladiator/Fighter joins Vehumet, then yes, Vehumet is bad. If Elementalist joins Vehumet, it's awesome.

[Lasty]

Yeah, I probably like okawaru more than I should. I thought about adding Chei to the list, but I still think Chei is only good on chars that already survived the party of the game that challenges them.

[Eyesburn]

but I still think Chei is only good on chars that already survived the party of the game that challenges them.

Chei also helps you to survive challenging part of the game by giving you an overall boost.
Speaking about Conjurations you get your spells online faster+more spellpower.

edit:

Can someone please tell me why monster detection is good for conjurers?

you can detect an monster behind a corner and cast the Fireball to hit it while it can't see or reach you

[Psieye]

edit:

Can someone please tell me why monster detection is good for conjurers?

you can detect an monster behind a corner and cast the Fireball to hit it while it can't see or reach you

Noise assessment: "if I make a loud noise here, I can see there's lots of bodies that will hear it". Not as useful as actual OhNo buttons.

[Sandman25]

Noise assessment: "if I make a loud noise here, I can see there's lots of bodies that will hear it". Not as useful as actual OhNo buttons.

That's why I don't cast Lightning Bolt/Fireball near unexplored area when I have choice. And when I don't have choice I don't care about those red faces because I have no choice anyway.

[Arrhythmia]

i was joking about chei guys please don't do this

[Sar]

one doesn't "simply joke" about Chei

[Reptisaurus]

It looks like people forget that most book backgrounds are much better than all non-book background except Berserker so good players don't need help reaching middle Lair and Vehumet gifts just in time to solve problems with elemental resists. Extra range is extremely good with many schools, it's awesome when you can cast bolt of fire or fireball at those Yaktaurs without stepping forward or luring them behind a corner (I've just tested to be sure, both of those spells cannot reach last tile in view otherwise). For Earth spells the benefit is even greater as you can cast Iron Shot 4 times instead of 3 while the monster walks to you. It can be treated as 33% increase in damage. Even wizardry is useful as it either saves you some XP for other skills or with some luck allows to equip enhancer ring/staff instead of wizardry. MP restore is not as bad as it looks to some, natural conjurations playstyle includes much pillar-dancing and basically long fights so it combines nicely with MP regeneration. Also it is very common to kill multiple monsters with a single cast because many middle game spells are AoE. That extra Fireball can be 25% increase in damage.

TL/DR If Gladiator/Fighter joins Vehumet, then yes, Vehumet is bad. If Elementalist joins Vehumet, it's awesome.

And you don't have to train any invocations for any of this. Separately none of Vehumet's abilities are game breaking but conjurers use them all constantly and benefit from them, constantly. None of this incredibly situational rain/grand finale/corpse torment/major destruction crap you (well, I) never use.

[duvessa]

Sure, if you refuse to use gods other than Vehumet then Vehumet is the best god. But if someone asks which god they should pick, there's probably more than one god that they are willing to use. Don't project your own weird no-invocations-allowed conduct onto other people.

I play book backgrounds a lot and use Vehumet a lot with them, but Vehumet is undeniably a weak god, even with elementalists.

[Enish]

Conjurer Gods ?

I think "The Four" in a single altar would be good. You choose your element in which you have bonuses (after gaining **) .

Damn, branching gods.

[ololoev]

Vehumet is bad for spellcasters because Vehumet is bad for everyone. It's not a consistency problem, it's just a shitty god being shit.

But Veh is awesome for go Veh ->2 lair branches -> FStorm ready -> go depths -> 2-3 zigs for nmut&wucad -> go Makh strategy, because you become nearly invulnerable then.

[dpeg]

It is easy to make Vehumet much stronger, even without changing any mechanics, just by the numbers. I was aware that tavern concensus is that Cheibriados is an abysmal god, didn't know Vehumet is chalked up as shit over here, too.

[Hands]

I don't think Veh is terrible. Veh gives consistent, fairly useful abilities that support the development of your character. The issue is that many other gods give you abilities that can get you through significant parts of the game (or the whole game) almost on their own. Chei is another level of bad (for a normal run) because he actively makes you weaker in the hard part of the game.

[Eyesburn]

(for a normal run)

which are other types of runs?

[Hands]

(for a normal run)

which are other types of runs?

Speed run would be the main example, but any game where people are prepared to sacrifice consistency for some late game goal.

[njvack]

It is easy to make Vehumet much stronger, even without changing any mechanics, just by the numbers.

I'm still firmly in the boat that Vehumet should in some way increase conjurations' damage rather than (or in addition to) spell success. If folks are itching for an active ability (I'm not, conjurations already need enough keypresses) this could be a pretty decent activated ability. If Crawl needs another complicated player effect (again I am not arguing it does) there could even be some kind of "conjurations berserk" through Vehumet.

But I think it'd be hard to turn +Wiz and +MP-on-kills up enough to change Veh's power a ton -- casting conjurations at low power (which is what you'd get by adding a bunch of wizardry) is not very good (and rings of wiz are pretty common anyhow), and generally you can deal with regaining MP by walking away. I'm not saying changing these things would do *nothing*. I guess turning +Wiz up a bunch could make Veh really the god of "cast L6 spells easily in heavy armour" which is kind of strong. You still probably want to take Str instead of Int a bunch, though, so you're still trading power for success and hm :/

Adding range might be stronger; I already feel like this is one of Veh's better effects, to be honest.

[KoboldLord]

It is easy to make Vehumet much stronger, even without changing any mechanics, just by the numbers. I was aware that tavern concensus is that Cheibriados is an abysmal god, didn't know Vehumet is chalked up as shit over here, too.

I enjoy playing Vehumet because she makes it less necessary to lure things obsessively, but obsessive luring is still objectively better than any available alternatives and it tends to supersede her mp-related passives because you normally kill things in a safe spot where you can just rest to full mp again. She still isn't as bad as Chei, Qazlal, or Xom because she doesn't actually hurt you, so that's not quite the right comparison.

[ydeve]

It is easy to make Vehumet much stronger, even without changing any mechanics, just by the numbers. I was aware that tavern concensus is that Cheibriados is an abysmal god, didn't know Vehumet is chalked up as shit over here, too.

Tavern consensus is that Chei is terrible for winning, not that Chei is terrible period. At least Chei is a unique playstyle that some find interesting.

In contrast, Vehumet doesn't actually change anything at all about the way you play conjurors. She just greatly reduces the chances of not getting appropriate high level spells (so you can continue playing as a conjuror) and gives you passives that mildly improve on what you already have.

[Sar]

IMO getting some guaranteed mid/endgame upgrades to your spellset is a pretty noticeable change.

[Tiktacy]

I like vehumet if you intend on doing a 15 rune game and like the mindlessness of blasting level 9 spells in lich form.

As far as winning goes, here is my list based on my experience and preference(in no particular order): Gozag, Ru, Kiku, Fedhas, and probably dithmenos although I haven't played him in ages. I don't see a reason to use sif muna when Gozag exists, maybe there is something about sif I'm missing but gozag just feels so much better over all. I'm not that great of a player though.

[ydeve]

You can get the same guaranteed spells with Sif.