Crusader, early game

[Hydralisk]

Hi, I'm a new player, playing DCSS for 2 weeks or so. I'm not new to the roguelikes in general, and my favourite character type is usually a melee fighter/mage hybrid (like ADOM paladin). So, it was natural for me to try crusaders in DCSS.

Wiki guide says that crusaders "are among the most powerful choices for melee characters due to having good offensive melee power and survivability without impeding spellcasting" and "in Crawl 0.8... they are no longer the only competitive choice for melee characters due to buffs to heavy armour, but are still among the best". OK, this is great and all, I have only one question, HOW THE F do you keep one alive?!

No, seriously, I tried different recommended race/class combinations:

Around 70% of my KoBe's can clean Lair 1-7 without much effort.
Around 40% of my HEWz's can safely get to Lair.
All my MDFi's usually die somewhere between Temple and Lair.
- it's not that much, but:
Around 80% of my MfCr's die before the Temple (and the rest die shortly after).
None of my HECr's have ever got to Temple.

Bot says "you're a mfcr that's like cheating", but it seems more like a ultrahard challenge combo to me. I usually start my DCSS session by killing 10-20 crusaders, then saying "screw that" and cleaning the Lair with KoBe. It's not like I'm dying to anything in particular, it's probably something fundamentally wrong with my gameplay. What am I doing wrong?

OK, onto MfCr.

I usually try to play safe, lure enemies to corridors, etc., still it feels like I'm too fragile without any damage output.
Rage is good... if it works. At the beginning, it often fails (success=fair), and as I only try to rage on tougher enemies (ogres, orcish patrols), failed rage is usually gg right there.
Raising Charms by victory dancing with freezing aura brings two major problems: first, there's usually no spare exp in the early game (even if I turn Polearms off) so it's probably pointless, and second, spell hunger and starvation. Is it really worth it?
- so, basically, I can't rely on Rage (it fails = I die), and training Charms = starving.
If I just avoid harder enemies, soon it feels like I'm avoiding everything except rats, because enemies down there are even more harder.

HECr. Rage is better at start (success=good), but outside of it, it's not uncommon to be 2-shotted on D2. Even cockroaches are killing me. Trying to play this looks like a gamble, and I usually lose it before D4.

So, how should I play crusaders to survive early game? I really need some help.

[Qwazzerman]

MfCr's been one of my most successful combos, though I haven't been playing a terribly long time. I've found the Crusader guide on the wiki to be a big help.
I don't worry about victory dancing precisely due to what you mentioned, the lack of extra experience points.
As for fights, you might try being more liberal in fleeing. The most difficult monsters I've encountered early on as MfCr are: named entities (Sigmund), orc wizards and priests, jellies, ogres, and bees. So I generally avoid these until I'm at least level 7 or 8 (the orcs are only problems at range; once you get in reach you're pretty safe).
Ring of Wizardry would also help, as would avoiding any armor heavier than leather until you get your skills higher (you might even look into robes).
Also, perhaps it would be of use to identify healing potions early on.

Hope this helps.

[Bim]

First off, DO NOT TRY TRUNK.
I consider myself a pretty experienced player, quite a few completes with a good number of runes. In the trunk, hybrids have been nerfed MASSIVELY. I can't even get past/to lair most of the time. Even with liberal running away and really good equipment luck I've only just about survived (but not for long). The new shroud of globria is rubbish (great spell, does nothing), and spell hunger, power and success absolutely shot to hell with no chance of getting stuff reliable. I've been quite vocal about this in the design forum, and I really do think that its been nerfed too heavily. The problem is, as soon as you say 'nerf.' someone obviously says 'WELL ITS MEANT TO BE HARD.'.

In terms of 0.8 (which I assume you're playing) I'd concentrate on getting freezing aura up (even put a bit on ice magic if you want) as that gets you straight through the Lair and Hive. I rage quite often, remember to lure round corners and then go mental, but be REALLY careful about it running out before you kill everything (=instadeath). Never turn off polearms until they're high, and get robes asap. In general, you need to be running away from things a lot (more than you would think), however they do get powerful later on, so don't worry about using wands and scrolls slightly more liberally than usual. Ring of resist poison is really useful, as is worshipping oku (although, you won't want to be using his weapon gifts as much, but armour is awesome). Also, remember to read all your scrolls as soon as you've found which identify and remove curse is. All the rest are good to use up whenever you're safe, as you might get a few enchants which will help a lot.

Final tip, get some stuff to throw. Even if it's just darts, it'll weaken stuff up just enough to not die. Also think about branching out to ice magic if you can find it, it's very useful, especially for ozzys armour.

[eharper256]

Actually, I think popular belief may be based on an earlier version. In my (only 0.8) experience, Crusaders have one of the hardest starts in the game. Not as bad as Fighters due to having the skill to actually use their stuff, but besides that they're basically the same class initially without the benefits of AC and a Long Blade start. Moreover, Merfolk have a great spear aptitude, but there's no guarantee of finding a trident early on to upgrade your gear (since the only viable polearms path of upgrade is SPEAR => TRIDENT => DEMONTRIDENT => TRISHULA (if TSO) or BARDICHE (if at near-max skill)).

My only advice is to find a robe and swap out your leather for it initially until your Charms and Spellcasting goes up a bit. In actual fact, I'd always say Repel Missiles is more important in their starting book, as even a few nasty darts from a kobold can ruin a Junior Crusaders day. Your rage is shorter than a Berserkers and you're more likely to pass out, even when you're actually able to cast it; so its really a panic button rather than a standard combat strategy, especially early on.

Freeze and Flame brand are strictly meh (freezing being slightly superior due to potential slowing effect). They up your damage, but not by a huge amount. Its really just better to hope to find a Draining/Poison/Volt brand on something and ignore them entirely.

So yeah, they're a bit a jack of all, master of nothing. The only conceivable benefit I can see to the class in general is that it gives you a leg up in Charms casting for when/IF you get Haste, which is why I proposed a bunch of things on the Docswiki.

Actually I'd propose that starting a Gladiator (and if Merfolk, hey look its a Trident!) is an easier way to eventually tread the magic knight route (although the crappy start INT will reduce your potential spellpower a bit).

[Hydralisk]

Thanks for your replies! So it appears there's really no easy way out. Ugh...

As for fights, you might try being more liberal in fleeing. The most difficult monsters I've encountered early on as MfCr are: named entities (Sigmund), orc wizards and priests, jellies, ogres, and bees. So I generally avoid these until I'm at least level 7 or 8 (the orcs are only problems at range; once you get in reach you're pretty safe).

These are exactly the monsters that I try to kill with berserk, will try to avoid them instead.

Ring of Wizardry would also help, as would avoiding any armor heavier than leather until you get your skills higher (you might even look into robes).
Also, perhaps it would be of use to identify healing potions early on.

My only advice is to find a robe and swap out your leather for it initially until your Charms and Spellcasting goes up a bit.

Yup, already have been doing this, the first blue robe usually replaces my default armor.

In terms of 0.8 (which I assume you're playing) I'd concentrate on getting freezing aura up (even put a bit on ice magic if you want) as that gets you straight through the Lair and Hive.

I actually never really bother with freezing aura... I get random fire or freeze and hit it here and there just to try get Charms a little bit up, but will use freeze more and try to see the difference.

Final tip, get some stuff to throw. Even if it's just darts, it'll weaken stuff up just enough to not die. Also think about branching out to ice magic if you can find it, it's very useful, especially for ozzys armour.

Ooh... About branching to ice magic, I just found out that making hybrid the other way (IE->melee) is actually much easier due to having higher Int and useful spells. Getting weapon skill with that aptitude is also easy.

And yes, I'm playing 0.8.1

Actually, I think popular belief may be based on an earlier version. In my (only 0.8) experience, Crusaders have one of the hardest starts in the game. Not as bad as Fighters due to having the skill to actually use their stuff, but besides that they're basically the same class initially without the benefits of AC and a Long Blade start.
...
Actually I'd propose that starting a Gladiator (and if Merfolk, hey look its a Trident!) is an easier way to eventually tread the magic knight route (although the crappy start INT will reduce your potential spellpower a bit).

What really irritates me is that you can't be a hybrid, at least in early game, you're either a weak fighter or a spellcaster without Int and good spells. Finding and equipping buckler at the start of the game shuts off spellcasting entirely. So, it's either you get usual EV fighter gear and forget about spells, or go meleeing in a robe without shield. Should probably also try Gladiator or IE.

[Mackerel]

I'm no expert at all, but I have found it useful to victory dance my primary casting skill right away, with the 25 starting points in the xp pool. You can't do that if you enter the dungeon and there's already 2 monsters waiting to greet you; but if you're in an empty hall, it seems to be worth while to move your basic casting skill up by a level or so. The difference that makes, for not miscasting sting or magic dart or whatever, is quite noticeable.

[absolutego]

i'm playing another skald and the are decent.
in my limited experience shroud of golubria is a good addition, useful not only early on, but in the mid-game as well. the early game is not only tough, but annoying because they have to train so many different schools. if you memorize all the spells in the starting book, which you probably will, that means you'll use fire, ice, air, poison, translocations and necromancy, in addition to charms. you can turn them off when they reach level 1, but that means bad spell sucess for a rather long time. then you realize that miscasting these spells once or twice is not critical because they're level 3 at most, and you have enough MP. i'm still relying on all of them at XL17.

[QTQuazar]

since you're playing 8.1:

repel missiles is your first priority. one poison dart from a kobold can end your game on D:1 and D:2. training this spell will also give you the spell levels you need at L3, when your better spells can be accessed.

save those spell levels (don't start picking brands, although this seems counterintuitive), grabbing regen and berzerk at L3 instead. BERZERK is your HIGHEST priority, since it does way more damage than anything else. do not use berzerk for anything other than snakes (or ants or uniques, or desperation situations, if you're unlucky), and you should be fine starting out. regen will not be reliable at first but it should be just enough to counteract poison and get you going again sooner rather than later in the dungeon.

i don't use robes unless they're a +2 enchantment minimum (but then i play HEs)

by L4 and L5, you should start adding brands to your weapon, which gives you situational options. as others have mentioned, ice is first priority, not because of damage but because it gives you a speed advantage.

focus on one weapon type ONLY, and i'd recommend speed over everything else (ie: short swords). diversify later. you need your magic support coming into effect as soon as possible, or you WILL suffer from being underpowered. if anything gets away (since you don't have poison in 8.1) let it run. it'll be back.

cut every animal that offers fresh meat, after D:1. you'll need the meat to recover from berzerk.

use Okawaru as your first god. he'll probably give you hilarious garbage, starting around Lair 2, but occasionally he'll drop sth on you that's actually useful. in particular, he's going to give you a high-powered weapon at some point.

[TwilightPhoenix]

Try a Felid Crusader. Sure, you don't get to use all that snazzy gear, but once you learn Berserk it's almost like playing a more flexible FeBe, especially towards the later end of the game where FeBe finds everything maxing with absolutely no where to branch out to. Plus you get to pick any god you want rather than being stuck with Trog. Not to say that Trog is bad, he's a pretty awesome god, but as a FeBe you're eventually looking at 27 Unarmed/Fighting/Dodging and a massive pool of unused XP with nothing else to put it in except Stabbing and T&D.

[slowcar]

I have not gotten a Crusader off ground after the nerf in trunk, but have not played with the new shroud spell as well.
I miss berserk a lot, it was really a one-solution-fits-all for early ogres, ork wizards etc.
In 0.8 i liked to start my casters as crusaders and basically melee everything, adding support spells and slowly building damage spells into the mix.

[Bim]

Yeah I haven't gotten one off the ground either. The new shroud thing doesn't seem to do much other than a slight buff (similar to a weak ozzys armour). I find it easier to be an MFIE in trunk, still alot harder, but alright.

[dpeg]

Well, it is meant to be hard.

[Hydralisk]

Melee MfIE is way easier than MfCr, indeed.

1. Higher Int and Dex.
2. Lv1 Freeze seems better than Lv2 Freezing aura (freeze AND damage).
3. Why throw junk like darts when you can Throw Frost?

Seriously, this "warrior with defensive magic" approach is almost ideal for my playstyle. Getting Ozo Armour buff while losing Berserk seems like a fair trade. No starting gear, but getting a spear and relative skills is not a problem anyway.