Extended (that is, Torment) Doesn't Seem Fun

[MainiacJoe]

I have what feels like an absurdly powerful character with five runes sitting next to the Orb ready to go win. Or I could do extended, but frankly, it doesn't seem fun because of torment. I understand why it and hellfire exist, so that players are never completely invulnerable. I've never tried Tomb or Pan and only recently risked Crypt, because I feared the unknown and didn't want t risk characters that I rarely got that far. So this fear is probably why extended feels unfun, since clearly many players enjoy it. What can you tell me about extended that might allay my fears?


Here is the CIP https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?p=276557#p276557. I decided to post this separately since it seemed like a more general topic, but mods feel free to combine these two threads if that is the proper way to do things.

[Sandman25]

I learned extended in wizmode when playing offline. Saved a lot of time and bad emotions.

[robbcorp]

I learned it with something that is torment resistant like gargoyle or ghoul. Makes life easier.

[MainiacJoe]

I learned extended in wizmode when playing offline. Saved a lot of time and bad emotions.

Oh that's a good idea!

[Leszczynek]

It's not really a problem of torment; torment and hellfire add some challenge and make you at least consider what direction you want to build character in after getting the first two runes. The problem is that once you character is strong enough to deal with torment and hellfire, extended becomes extremely boring (Hell a bit less, Tomb even more). Unlike in standard 3 rune game, you can't really risk (i.e. play with a character that just might make it) because one case of bad RNG will kill you very efficiently and quickly. Or at least that's how I feel about it, so I almost never go for it and do 5 runes at most (6 if playing a ghoul).

[Sar]

I think extended is fun, there's just probably too much of it.

[Shard1697]

torment is not the problem. except in tomb, but tomb would be a problem even without it-tons beefy enemies that spam dangerous summons(and also smite+inflict random effects on death) just naturally leads to really boring, super stairdance heavy gameplay for any character without lv9 spells.

Hells and pan are just too long and boring. Especially pan, since if you get bad RNG the demonic rune might not spawn for a whole lot of floors(or you might not get the themed floor you want for a lot of floors)... I think there are more rune vaults for it now than the last tourny which is when I last 15'd(does this increase chance of it spawning per floor? idk), but it just takes so many floors for it to spawn much of the time. And it's usually not even like I'm having much trouble with the floors-otherwise I wouldn't be able to do so many of them. Not that them being harder would really fix that problem anyhow.

Last tourny, of my 6 15 rune games, the number of floors I had to go through on pan:
34 pan floors
37 pan floors
26 pan floors
24 pan floors
45 pan floors(fuck me this sucked)
27 pan floors
it's just soooo long. even the shortest of these is way, way too long for me, I'm completely sick of pan by the end of it. I don't know if this feeling is universal but I don't even want to do 10 floors of pan, much less 45. it's miserable.

[TonberryJam]

Learn what your enemy can and can't do.

[4Hooves2Appendages]

Something you could consider:
- Look at your resistances (you've got rF+++), so check out Gehenna.
- Explore cautiously to clear a path to the next stairs. Don't explore the whole level.
- Try to fight near stairs. Any trouble, you can just leave. In that sense Hell is nicer than Pan.
- Use consumables / god abilities liberally. When you worry about running low, just grab the orb and win.

The character you have there looks very strong. Although personally I'd have started to add some utility spells a little while ago. Having reliable access to summons, buffs and strong ranged damage are all useful.

[tabstorm]

It would be great if that idea of spawning only one of Pan or Hell per game and shortening them were implemented. Then you just need to remove Tomb to have 10 runes and extended is great.

[4Hooves2Appendages]

Nothing really stops you from not collecting runes you don't like.

[Shard1697]

tournament scoring heavily incentivizes 15-runing if you want to do well. I never 15 rune outside of tournies, when they're on it's most of what I do.

[4Hooves2Appendages]

That's a fair point I hadn't considered. I never participated in a tourney so far.

Depending on the spread of opinion a change to the tournament rules might be an easier option than extended reform (tm).

[MainiacJoe]

Although personally I'd have started to add some utility spells a little while ago. Having reliable access to summons, buffs and strong ranged damage are all useful.

I'll tell the story of how I ended up in GDA. For the longest time I had no resists at all and MR++ from a chain mail of magic resistance. =ProtFire and =ProtCold never spawned, and I only found =ProtMagic in Slime 6. Meanwhile I had the cloak and the amulet giving me extra strength and one pip of rF+, and then I got Heat Resistance from demonic ancestry. So before Slime 6 and Vaults 5 I had rF++ and nothing else, and I was carrying around a wimpy quarterstaff with MR+ as a resist stick for paralyzers etc. I went to Slime first; if I found MR+, I'd use GDA for elemental resists, but if I found elemental resists, I'd dump the 3 ?EA onto the chain mail MR+. Well I found not only the MR+, but a +2 GDA. So that solved that.

So really it was the extra strength from the artifacts that pushed me towards heavy armour and away from hybrid. TBH, I had Makh for the summons, Powered By Pain for the buffs, and Hurl Damnation (or Greater Destruction or javelins) for the ranged damage. I'll admit also to the lure of never before having a character that could wear GDA as a factor in choosing to go that way.

I know people do cast spells in heavier armour (maybe not GDA) but is there enough XP in a 5-rune game without Chei or Ash to do that?

[Sandman25]

Ring of ice can be good for rC+ also, with rF++ you can (should) even wear it by default.

[arandomperson12]

Vampiric lajatang is not very useful in extended, it only works against natural enemies, and most enemies in extended are either demons or undead.

[Shard1697]

Depending on the spread of opinion a change to the tournament rules might be an easier option than extended reform (tm).

Honestly just on principle I think that, even if most people do not go there, it is better to have a good/fun part of the game that not many people see than a bad/boring part of the game that not many people see... probably not a priority for devs, but I'd imagine they'd probably prefer if more people liked extended as well. So regardless of tournies I want it improved, it'd be cool if it was something I wanted to do even when playing normally.

It's not a very good comparison, but my favorite extended-similar thing in a game is Hell in spelunky, because while it lengthens the game it's still very focused, tough, and not super long. Obviously the game is very different but my dream crawl is one that includes a much tighter extended experience.

[4Hooves2Appendages]

I know people do cast spells in heavier armour (maybe not GDA) but is there enough XP in a 5-rune game without Chei or Ash to do that?

Yes, there is actually. The amount of XP you invested to max out some skills is enormous in comparison to what it would take to get some utility spells.

You wouldn't get to lvl 6 spells very quickly, but there are some really good lower level spells. For example: Apportation, Swiftness, Repel Missiles, Animate Skeleton/Dead, Blink, Regeneration, Passage of Golubria, Summon Butterflies, Stoneskin.

Depending on your gear and Str/Int you can also get mid level stuff like Silence, Phase Shift, Haste and Deflect Missiles.

[dpeg]

I really like the proposal of rolling between Hells and Pan for each game. Hopefully it'll happen some time!

As far as Pan is concerned: I think it's being shortened since DCSS 0.2 or so I've never done extended back in the day, but it must have been one hell of a slog.

Roguelikers were just of a different stamp back then, oh happy times.

[MainiacJoe]

I know people do cast spells in heavier armour (maybe not GDA) but is there enough XP in a 5-rune game without Chei or Ash to do that?

Yes, there is actually. The amount of XP you invested to max out some skills is enormous in comparison to what it would take to get some utility spells.

You wouldn't get to lvl 6 spells very quickly, but there are some really good lower level spells. For example: Apportation, Swiftness, Repel Missiles, Animate Skeleton/Dead, Blink, Regeneration, Passage of Golubria, Summon Butterflies, Stoneskin.

Depending on your gear and Str/Int you can also get mid level stuff like Silence, Phase Shift, Haste and Deflect Missiles.

I think you're right. Even in GDA? Well maybe. But I certainly didn't NEED 27 Fighting for five runes.