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Monstrous Menagerie?
Posted:
Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 02:15by njvack
So, I just played (and stupidly lost) my first summoner in a long time. One of the spells I didn't ever understand was Menagerie -- it's level 7 and summons one (or a few) monsters that are basically late-D or early Depths. Harpy packs are nice, sphinxes are OK, but these dudes don't generally tear up the level.
Constrast this to Shadow Creatures, which can summon basically whatever's troubling you at one level less. Or Summon Hydra, which has its challenges (real short duration) but is a fair bit more predictable.
Am I missing something?
Re: Monstrous Menagerie?
Posted:
Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 04:19by joyousshower
Yea I was unimpressed by MM, Mana vipers were pretty good, shadow creatures are nice, but expensive. My favorite are demons, but having them turn hostile is a bitch, generally I hoped for abjure to handle it, but sometimes I did have to run. Actually didn't get to greater demons, but I imagine it's the same as Makhlebs and those kick ass.
Re: Monstrous Menagerie?
Posted:
Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 05:37by duvessa
Shadow Creatures and Summon Hydra have really low durations. Monstrous Menagerie does not, and it has a separate summon cap. Also, harpy packs certainly do tear up the level. Perhaps you don't understand how batty monsters work? The faster your own actions are, the more effective harpies (both friendly and hostile) will be.
Re: Monstrous Menagerie?
Posted:
Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 05:46by crate
Have you actually tried it against enemies? Monsters are not players, and this has important effects on which monsters are good against monsters.
Harpies demolish pretty much everything.
Re: Monstrous Menagerie?
Posted:
Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 13:31by njvack
If I always (or even usually) got harpies, it would be great. But quite often it's not harpies. Even sphinxes seemed surprisingly ineffective. Manticores were not great.
Knowing that harpies are improved by hasting myself helps, even though it's weird. I think I don't actually understand how batty creatures work.
Anyhow, thanks all. I don't think I'll be rolling another summoner soon, but I'll give MM another chance if I do.
Re: Monstrous Menagerie?
Posted:
Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 13:43by njvack
Looking at the code, you get sphinxes half the time if your spell power is over 60... if harpies are better than sphinxes, the spell is better at lower power?
Re: Monstrous Menagerie?
Posted:
Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 14:07by crate
I don't know, but what you said alone is not enough to say. Harpy group > sphinx > manticore/lindwurm in general, so if the sphinxes just replace manticores/lindwurms then higher spellpower is an obvious improvement. You also get more harpies when you do get harpies at higher power.
Re: Monstrous Menagerie?
Posted:
Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 14:34by njvack
The logic is
- Code:
if (random2(pow) > 60 && coinflip())
type = MONS_SPHINX;
else
type = random_choose(MONS_HARPY, MONS_MANTICORE, MONS_LINDWURM);
if (player_will_anger_monster(type))
type = MONS_MANTICORE;
Re: Monstrous Menagerie?
Posted:
Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 16:35by Airwolf
random2(pow) gives a random integer between 0 and pow - 1, inclusive.
If pow < 62, you never get a sphinx.
If pow >= 62, you a sphinx with probability
p = (pow - 61) / pow * 1 / 2.
Your general point is correct that harpies are more likely at lower spellpower (probabilty 1/3 at pow < 62, probability (1 - p) / 3, with p from the equation above, if pow >= 62).
Re: Monstrous Menagerie?
Posted:
Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 16:41by phloomp
duvessa wrote:Perhaps you don't understand how batty monsters work? The faster your own actions are, the more effective harpies (both friendly and hostile) will be.
njvack wrote:Knowing that harpies are improved by hasting myself helps, even though it's weird.
Can anyone explain this? I thought batty just meant "moves away after hitting" and I don't see how these would follow from that.
Re: Monstrous Menagerie?
Posted:
Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 16:44by Tiktacy
Ever been attacked by a caustic shrikes or harpie zombie?
Re: Monstrous Menagerie?
Posted:
Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 17:38by duvessa
When a batty monster attacks it starts moving randomly until the next player action, then resumes normal monster behaviour until its next attack. So if player actions are more frequent, batty monsters waste fewer actions on moving randomly.
Re: Monstrous Menagerie?
Posted:
Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 17:54by njvack
OK so the reason hydra zombies hit so hard is that they *aren't* batty, they're just fast and hit hard.
@duvessa: So, if you've summoned harpies and want them to killdudes most efficiently, would it be best to hang out and swap weapons over and over or something?
Re: Monstrous Menagerie?
Posted:
Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 18:02by Tiktacy
njvack wrote:OK so the reason hydra zombies hit so hard is that they *aren't* batty, they're just fast and hit hard.
@duvessa: So, if you've summoned harpies and want them to killdudes most efficiently, would it be best to hang out and swap weapons over and over or something?
Re: Monstrous Menagerie?
Posted:
Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 18:13by njvack
no I am actually serious, batty monsters have always been slightly mysterious to me and I want to know if I'm getting smarter or dumber
edit: also time in Crawl is really weird; it seems normal until you really think about it and then whoah
Re: Monstrous Menagerie?
Posted:
Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 18:19by 4Hooves2Appendages
I think you're correct njvack. You can study this in relative safety with some actual bats.
Also, imagining a batty hydra is quite amusing.
Re: Monstrous Menagerie?
Posted:
Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 18:42by duvessa
Yes, weapon swapping would make your harpies more effective, although it might still be a better use of turns to keep casting spells/moving/attacking/whatever. I just thought I'd mention it in case you were playing a summoner of chei or something.
Re: Monstrous Menagerie?
Posted:
Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 18:45by njvack
Well, if I'm understanding things right, battiness wouldn't make a hydra more dangerous; being fast would... battiness on normal speed creatures would just make them move away from you after attacking. Which I guess would be kind of funny for hydras...
oh god a summoner of chei
Re: Monstrous Menagerie?
Posted:
Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 18:49by 4Hooves2Appendages
njvack wrote:OK so the reason hydra zombies hit so hard is that they *aren't* batty, they're just fast and hit hard.
Just in case, you know, it wasn't obvious where the hydra came from. (As usual, it was loitering by the stairs, with intent...)
Re: Monstrous Menagerie?
Posted:
Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 19:01by duvessa
Yes, the reason harpy zombies often have higher damage output than harpies is that they aren't batty.
Re: Monstrous Menagerie?
Posted:
Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 19:02by njvack
My typos know NO BOUNDS.
Yes, I meant harpy zombies.
Re: Monstrous Menagerie?
Posted:
Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 20:20by Sar
Death scarab zombies/simulacra are hilariously powerful, I've had those 2v1 and I think even 1v1 greater mummies.
Re: Monstrous Menagerie?
Posted:
Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 20:58by Siegurt
FR: all summons and mindless undead are batty.
Re: Monstrous Menagerie?
Posted:
Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 21:19by 4Hooves2Appendages
Siegurt wrote:FR: all summons and mindless undead are batty
and very fast.