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Wizard Start

PostPosted: Friday, 20th May 2016, 08:33
by seren
I find the book of minor magic really appealing with blink, rmsk, and conjure flame.

However after a few tries, it seems I hit a ceiling around XP 10/ Dungeon:10 if I don't find a really good book by then. I have a hard time to kill things.

Can you do the start of Lair with only the book of minor magic ? The open layout seems to not really help.

So I am thinking it might be wiser to start as FE anyway since Fireball will carry you a bit further (even if you have less defence)

Are they other strategies specific to wizard ? Or should I try until I am lucky ?

Re: Wizard Start

PostPosted: Friday, 20th May 2016, 08:39
by Sar
Try melee?

Re: Wizard Start

PostPosted: Friday, 20th May 2016, 09:07
by seren
Sar wrote:Try melee?


I was tyring with a DE and focusing almost exclusively on Spellcasting + spell scholl + dodge/figthing around lvl 5.

But I might actually try to level up a weapon (+ maybe stealth) earlier.

Re: Wizard Start

PostPosted: Friday, 20th May 2016, 09:09
by ydeve
Wz doesn't have the tools to get through Lair smoothly with just the starting book, but the dungeon usually drops something that you can use.

Re: Wizard Start

PostPosted: Friday, 20th May 2016, 09:13
by Sar
DEWz is really bad IMO. If you become really good at using Conjure Flame, you can get through Lair with it. Imps help too, though they were better when you could have a dozen of them at once.

Re: Wizard Start

PostPosted: Friday, 20th May 2016, 09:47
by Lasty
For Wz, Conjure Flame and Summon Imp are your main offensive tools in Lair. It's possible to get through Lair using just these, but it's much easier to learn to use a weapon, get some defenses, and then use you spells and your weapon in conjunction.

DE is a pretty difficult species, and DEWz is a particularly challenging one since it can't lean as heavily on its book as other book starts.

Re: Wizard Start

PostPosted: Friday, 20th May 2016, 12:06
by seren
Thanks for all the good advices, I think I'll try a Draconian Wizard next, it should be a bit more easy to survive.

Re: Wizard Start

PostPosted: Friday, 20th May 2016, 13:12
by archaeo
If that doesn't work (and it absolutely can, DrWz is fine), try TrWz or OgWz or HOWz. "Wizard" is probably the most misleading background name in Crawl; it's a book of spells that can be leveraged to work with several playstyles, and it just so happens that the hardest kind of character to get going as a --Wz is one that mostly kills dudes directly with spells. You can do it, but it'll take longer and be more frustrating than if you had just started as an FE.

Re: Wizard Start

PostPosted: Friday, 20th May 2016, 20:14
by tabstorm
Train only enough magic to use conjuire flame, mephitic cloud, and summon imp at 15-20%, and no more, unless you're starting as a low-HP magic-affine race.

Re: Wizard Start

PostPosted: Friday, 20th May 2016, 21:26
by duvessa
archaeo wrote:it just so happens that the hardest kind of character to get going as a --Wz is one that mostly kills dudes directly with spells.
frankly, this is only true if you suck at using conjure flame
just conjure flame + meph + occasional imps is easily enough to kill everything up to lair, everything in lair, and most of remaining d an orc too

Re: Wizard Start

PostPosted: Sunday, 22nd May 2016, 16:54
by Avigdore
Mummy wizard of Sif and conjure flame on the whole map...

Re: Wizard Start

PostPosted: Sunday, 22nd May 2016, 21:27
by Reptisaurus
seren wrote:
Sar wrote:Try melee?


I was tyring with a DE and focusing almost exclusively on Spellcasting + spell scholl + dodge/figthing around lvl 5.

But I might actually try to level up a weapon (+ maybe stealth) earlier.


Right. If you don't get book drops or kiku/sif/vehumet then you're a fighter with a little bit of magic as back-up. (This is not a bad thing to be!)

Try to use positioning and conjure flame as much as possible - Meph cloud is great but it is loud so you don't want to use it as your primary offense when you don't have an easy escape route.

Side question: I rarely even bother to memorize slow. Is this a huge tactical error on my part?

Re: Wizard Start

PostPosted: Monday, 23rd May 2016, 03:41
by EnigmaticFellow
I haven't seen anyone in this thread mention SpWz yet, so I'll plug my piece in about this combination. Speed and Blink make this character really survivable early on, and Mephitic Cloud synergizes well with a spriggan's good aptitude for short blades and stealth if you don't find a good book early. I would recommend that such a character should worship either Ashenzari or Vehumet if they intend to become blaster casters since they make up for a spriggan's poor conjurations aptitude. SpWz^Kiku might also be good, but I personally haven't tried it.

As for DEWz, I really like them since I can get Firestorm online by Vaults if I worship Vehumet. It's a hard combination to start with, but they gain a lot of power very quickly if you can get a good book or Vehumet provides you a good enough spell early enough.

Re: Wizard Start

PostPosted: Tuesday, 24th May 2016, 06:51
by TonberryJam
I kinda like that spell book. Using a spear or any ranged weapons works well with it.

only problem is mephitic cloud ties the other skills together nicely, but need 3 schools.

I try to work around that using high INT characters or chei. +apt to poison/fire/conj help.

Re: Wizard Start

PostPosted: Tuesday, 24th May 2016, 08:31
by 4Hooves2Appendages
Lair is definitely possible with just the book of minor magic. Conjure flame is really strong and pretty much all tough enemies in lair walk right into it. That includes spiny frogs, black mambas and hydras.

It does require some experience in how monsters move to make it work well. I'd recommend spectating someone who's good at it.

Re: Wizard Start

PostPosted: Tuesday, 24th May 2016, 14:43
by seren
4Hooves2Appendages wrote:Lair is definitely possible with just the book of minor magic. Conjure flame is really strong and pretty much all tough enemies in lair walk right into it. That includes spiny frogs, black mambas and hydras.

It does require some experience in how monsters move to make it work well. I'd recommend spectating someone who's good at it.


Probably with a DEWz the worst enemy would be the blinking frogs, I am not sure what you are supposed to do, it is hard to create bottlenecks. Use Mephitic cloud as soon as you seem them to confuse them ?

Re: Wizard Start

PostPosted: Tuesday, 24th May 2016, 15:02
by njvack
Lure blink frogs to fight 1v1. Mephitic should help a lot (it'll kill their blink), but I would still not try to fight the whole pack at once.

Actually don't fight them 1v1, you have call imp.

Re: Wizard Start

PostPosted: Tuesday, 24th May 2016, 21:04
by Tressol
Slow is worth memorizing if you have the spell levels. If you haven't found another book by Lair to kills stuff with, you will want something to help you deal with/escape singular, dangerous enemies - Spiny Frogs and Black Mambas in particular are faster than you and resist your Mephetic Cloud. They also have pretty crummy MR, iirc, as does most of Lair. I also believe that delay between actions influences Conjure Flame damage.

So yeah. Memorize Slow, at least as a DE. DE has rhe INT and aptitudes to easily make good use of it, and DE also is so frail they need as many escape/control options as possible.

Re: Wizard Start

PostPosted: Wednesday, 25th May 2016, 01:07
by Hurkyl
seren wrote:Probably with a DEWz the worst enemy would be the blinking frogs, I am not sure what you are supposed to do, it is hard to create bottlenecks. Use Mephitic cloud as soon as you seem them to confuse them ?

Blink frogs have no AC and Magic Dart never misses. It takes a lot of shots, but since blink frogs spend so much time away from you, it's not that big of a deal (especailly if you can get one in a flame cloud). And they're affected by mephitic cloud, it isn't too much trouble to escape from them.

The real trouble is when something like a spiny frog or a black mamba catches you in the open and decides to walk around your clouds instead of through.

Re: Wizard Start

PostPosted: Wednesday, 25th May 2016, 07:19
by 4Hooves2Appendages
Yeah, if you end up with a mamba or spiny next to you and not in a flame that's an emergency, certainly for DE. In my experience that is almost, but not completely, avoidable. If it does happen, or better if it's about to happen, consumables need to be used.

Re: Wizard Start

PostPosted: Wednesday, 25th May 2016, 16:31
by Tressol
Oh, something worth knowing with regards to spiny frogs and mambas: they will avoid a flame cloud in the open, but if you cast it, say, three times and make a little "wall" perpendicular to their approach, they generally dive in and burn. Note, however, that a Spiny Frog or Mamba can still kill a Deep Elf very quickly, quite possibly faster than a flame cloud will kill the monster... So that's a bit risky.

Hydras and Elephants can be taken out with long columns of flame clouds, as they won't change course to get out once they're in one, if that makes sense. Slow can help here as well, but if you wake up an entire elephant pack, you've got a dangerous situation. Mephetic can work but due to HD isn't so reliable. If you have to take out a pack with just Minor Magic, make a killhole full of flame clouds if at all possible (I call this an "oven"), start summoning imps and get ready to teleport if need be.

Re: Wizard Start

PostPosted: Friday, 27th May 2016, 06:15
by TonberryJam
that spell book kinda needs all those spells to be effective later on in the dungeon.

conjure flame will always be good for mindless things that just move into it no matter what, like most undead, animals, and big-dumb guys. it also acts as a shield to things that will wait.

slow+blink let you flee easier. slow can work great against fast or slow creatures especially.

repel is obvious for any ranged.

anything meph cloud works on is great because it will keep imps alive and things will walk into flames.

magic dart is great for weak things to pick off at the edge of los or to just lure things one at a time.

Re: Wizard Start

PostPosted: Friday, 27th May 2016, 08:01
by Sar
TonberryJam wrote:slow can work great against fast or slow creatures especially

What makes Slow worse against normal speed enemies, in your opinion?

Re: Wizard Start

PostPosted: Friday, 27th May 2016, 10:48
by 4Hooves2Appendages
Sar wrote:
TonberryJam wrote:slow can work great against fast or slow creatures especially

What makes Slow worse against normal speed enemies, in your opinion?

I suspect 'fast or slow creatures especially' means: All creatures, but especially effective against slow creatures.

In my view it's unnecessary against slow creatures.

Re: Wizard Start

PostPosted: Friday, 27th May 2016, 10:53
by dpeg
archaeo wrote:"Wizard" is probably the most misleading background name in Crawl; it's a book of spells that can be leveraged to work with several playstyles, and it just so happens that the hardest kind of character to get going as a --Wz is one that mostly kills dudes directly with spells.
This is true! In fact, in the original readme.txt (by Linley?), it said that "If you want to play a caster, pick a conjurer" or something similar. The background is cool, but the confusion from the name is real, and old.

Ideas for how to rename Wizards welcome.

Re: Wizard Start

PostPosted: Friday, 27th May 2016, 10:56
by pumpyscump
Dabbler, Dilettante, Magical Student, Wizard's Apprentice, Unprepared Recluse, Unskilled Hermit, Hedge Roaster?

Re: Wizard Start

PostPosted: Friday, 27th May 2016, 10:57
by Sprucery
dpeg wrote:Ideas for how to rename Wizards welcome.

Just move it from Mages to Warrior-mages?

Re: Wizard Start

PostPosted: Friday, 27th May 2016, 11:07
by Sar
"Wizzard"

Re: Wizard Start

PostPosted: Friday, 27th May 2016, 11:12
by Sprucery
Witch

Re: Wizard Start

PostPosted: Friday, 27th May 2016, 11:48
by Magipi
dpeg wrote:Ideas for how to rename Wizards welcome.

Renaming solves nothing.

If you want to give new players a strong clue, let wizards pick a weapon at character creation. If you want to give something more than a clue, write a basic crawl strategy guide* and make it available in-game.

* About things like: a background is not a "class" as in other games, or that "casters" can and should use weapons and fighters can cast spells.

Re: Wizard Start

PostPosted: Friday, 27th May 2016, 17:31
by duvessa
Oh my god, wizards don't need to be renamed let alone given a weapon, this is just Tavern's melee obsession getting out of hand as usual. If players can't figure out how to kill things with Wz, it's because cloud mechanics aren't obvious, not because it's optimal to use melee to kill things (it isn't).

Re: Wizard Start

PostPosted: Friday, 27th May 2016, 17:56
by njvack
dpeg wrote:Ideas for how to rename Wizards welcome.

* Sword Mage
* Wizizzard
* Matthew Lillard

Re: Wizard Start

PostPosted: Sunday, 29th May 2016, 17:14
by TonberryJam
I always thought the only reason to start wizard was for more MP.

Re: Wizard Start

PostPosted: Sunday, 29th May 2016, 18:02
by tabstorm
The Wz background should just be removed. It does what lke 4 other backgrounds do, but badly. Give Cj the extra Int or something.

Re: Wizard Start

PostPosted: Sunday, 29th May 2016, 18:46
by Hurkyl
tabstorm wrote:The Wz background should just be removed. It does what lke 4 other backgrounds do, but badly. Give Cj the extra Int or something.

That's because it actually does something different and you're playing it like it does the same thing.

Seriously; I don't pick Wz because I want to blast things away with superior firepower -- I pick Wz because in addition to the ranged attack option I get lots of spells that help me avoid death in a variety of ways.

Re: Wizard Start

PostPosted: Sunday, 29th May 2016, 20:33
by Wahaha
tabstorm wrote:The Wz background should just be removed. It does what lke 4 other backgrounds do, but badly. Give Cj the extra Int or something.

Conjurer is more similar to the 4 elementalists than Wz is and is a better candidate for removal. But I don't think any of them are so similar that they should be removed.

Like Hurkyl said above, Wz plays differently.

Re: Wizard Start

PostPosted: Monday, 30th May 2016, 20:15
by Tressol
Don't remove Wizard - you've got to be joking with that. A generalist magician should exist, and it's one of the more interesting book starts, imo.

I would be happy for the rest of the Mage backgrounds to get Wizard starting stats, however, with the possible exception of VM, since lots of people here seem to think VM may as well be placed into the hybrid category (Warrior-mage?) anyway.

Anyway, Wizard is interesting, fun, and rewarding, with many options for development. More backgrounds should be like Wizard in these regards.

Re: Wizard Start

PostPosted: Wednesday, 1st June 2016, 02:03
by WingedEspeon
If you just want to win a Wz, pick TrWz, join trog, and burn the book. Otherwise there are plenty of posts above this to help you.