playing demigods

[ajon]

So they seem to have a lot of potential for a lot of roles. Do most people go heavily in one direction such as all int at level up. Or is it generally smarter to play a hybrid and try to get rounded stats? If so, is there a decent spot to aim for each stat?

[Sar]

Well, Dex past 24 suffers from diminishing returns (or so I heard), so, probably, don't get more than 24 Dex?

[crate]

If you are playing Dg because you want a strong character instead of because you just don't want to worship a god this game, you should always pick a book start (by that I mean something in the far-right column, not stuff like sk or tm).

[ajon]

I have been trying wizards so far. I might be better choosing something with a bit more punch though I think to make killing a bit easier.

[crate]

Wz is awkward because it's not really much of a book start (and its level 3 spells also don't take advantage of Dg's higher spellpower, to boot), I would suggest a different background.

[ajon]

I see. Thank you.

[ZipZipskins]

Wz is awkward because it's not really much of a book start (and its level 3 spells also don't take advantage of Dg's higher spellpower, to boot), I would suggest a different background.

Is it fair to assume IE is the most powerful? What would you say are the best options here?

I definitely like playing demigods, largely because playing a character that is strong of its own merits is very appealing, as opposed to characters that lean more on their worship.

[crate]

I'll let you figure this one out yourself.

Ok, so what is the advantage of demigod compared to other races? This is easy; they have better stats. What is it that better stats actually gives you?

Now, importantly, since Dg does not get a god, what is it that you can get from having better stats that you cannot get from a god unless it comes with a drawback?

Whatever answer you came up with, that is probably the best reason for playing Dg if you don't actually just want a godless character. Now figure out what backgrounds benefit from that ... benefit ... the most.

My previous posts are hinting toward the answer I came up with.

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

God > higher attributes, so demigod is a bit of a challenge species.

Demigods have high attributes but bad aptitudes. Bad apitudes are worse for a hybrid who needs to train more skills, so concentrating on a few key ones has the advantage. Gladiator is the start I find the easiest, but if you survive the even-rougher-than-usual start, later in the game a demigod transmuter becomes stronger than many other species because they benefit from all the attributes.

[crate]

Okawaru gives you more damage as a transmuter than Dg stats do (and as much EV), unless you've trained past 22 UC/fighting. DgTm is okay as far as Tm goes, and it's certainly better than most tms pre-god, but once you get a god it's not still better.

[njvack]

DgTm is okay as far as Tm goes, and it's certainly better than most tms pre-god, but once you get a god it's not still better.

Notably, Tm does not care much about spell power, so all that lovely int is not helping you as much as it would with conjurations (or even hexes). And picking up conjurations in addition to all the other stuff a Tm needs would be real hard.

Oh! Dg can choose stat gains now. Been a while. So it's not quite so bad.

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

Okawaru gives you more damage as a transmuter than Dg stats do (and as much EV), unless you've trained past 22 UC/fighting. DgTm is okay as far as Tm goes, and it's certainly better than most tms pre-god, but once you get a god it's not still better.

True. God > attributes, esp Oka with Tm. Maybe I should've said that the high attributes is a good match for a Tm, and later on Tm becomes powerful enough that it can survive well enough without a deity, and Tm+statform is IMO as good as it gets when trying to all-rune.

[ajon]

Clearly the right answer is DgVM.

As for stat gains, they get two stat points every 3 levels in the stat they pick.

Weapon wise, do you generally go with staves or maces or something else that you can get a good weapon with low skill investment? Or is it worth it just to go big by the end of the game with them?

[crate]

Weapon wise, do you generally go with staves or maces or something else that you can get a good weapon with low skill investment? Or is it worth it just to go big by the end of the game with them?

use whichever of great sword/lajatang/demon weapon you both find and prefer

[nago]

Demigods have high attributes but bad aptitudes. Bad apitudes are worse for a hybrid who needs to train more skills, so concentrating on a few key ones has the advantage. Gladiator is the start I find the easiest, but if you survive the even-rougher-than-usual start, later in the game a demigod transmuter becomes stronger than many other species because they benefit from all the attributes.

I really think you should actually stop to promote this idea, especially in topics asking for advices, because is quite wrong. Have you ever played DgIE\DgFE\DgSu\DgNe or whatever, tried some different approaches, etc?

Dg' apts are only very slightly worse than the average - for most skills it is around - 0.5. If we consider also the experience available in the game, this means their penalties apt-wise is negligible during most parts of the game.
Actually, considering the extremely high starting stats they have, plus the double increase, they are actually one of the best race to cast spell and hybridize a character the earliest on, because the bonus provided by those stats is very significant when there isn't yet an excess of experience available to overtrain spellcasting skills in order to cast in heavier armors that robe\leather.
The real big drawback of Dg, which you haven't pointed out, is their experience apt, which is evidently terrible and can make their life a little hard early on. Surely it is more evident for a book background because it is a breakpoint for learning spells, and therefore is much more different to end D:1 still at xl 1 for a Dg with a book than a DgGl.

That said, I am not suggesting that DgGl is a bad combo, because both Dg and Gl are strong. However, as crate pointed out, starting with a melee background make you lose most of the biggest strength of Dg over other races, so it is quite silly, especially because it is not true they are bad doing that (they're better to play a book background than most races).

[crate]

Anyway what I was leading to is that the one thing Dg gives you that gods can't really give you is higher spellpower.

If you want more spellpower from a god, your options are Chei, Zin, or Ash. Chei has a pretty obvious drawback that I don't have to expand upon. Zin has a smaller benefit than chei, and the +int requires you train invo, so there's an additional cost (the drawback, here), plus a few conducts. Ash is only a very tiny spellpower boost (the effect on spell success is much larger), to the point where Dg will have more spellpower than a human of ash in I think pretty much all circumstances (plus the cursing conduct, again).

So I think the book backgrounds that like spellpower are the best if your starting point is "I want Dg to be as good as other-race-with-a-god". It might still end up worse (particularly if you compare to, like, kiku or something) but it's probably the best route for that goal.

Obviously the reason Dg exists is for "I don't want to worship a god this game", in which case all Dg backgrounds are fine, but most people who ask about Dg aren't starting from that position.

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

Demigods have high attributes but bad aptitudes. Bad apitudes are worse for a hybrid who needs to train more skills, so concentrating on a few key ones has the advantage. Gladiator is the start I find the easiest, but if you survive the even-rougher-than-usual start, later in the game a demigod transmuter becomes stronger than many other species because they benefit from all the attributes.

I really think you should actually stop to promote this idea, especially in topics asking for advices, because is quite wrong. Have you ever played DgIE\DgFE\DgSu\DgNe or whatever, tried some different approaches, etc?

Not Dg** in particular, no. High Int definitely has synergy with book starts, you're right. I still think that a melee start is quite good given the -16% XP penalty in most skills. So I don't think it's bad advice, just not the only piece of good advice.

Dg' apts are only very slightly worse than the average - for most skills it is around - 0.5. If we consider also the experience available in the game, this means their penalties apt-wise is negligible during most parts of the game.
Actually, considering the extremely high starting stats they have, plus the double increase, they are actually one of the best race to cast spell and hybridize a character the earliest on, because the bonus provided by those stats is very significant when there isn't yet an excess of experience available to overtrain spellcasting skills in order to cast in heavier armors that robe\leather.
The real big drawback of Dg, which you haven't pointed out, is their experience apt, which is evidently terrible and can make their life a little hard early on. Surely it is more evident for a book background because it is a breakpoint for learning spells, and therefore is much more different to end D:1 still at xl 1 for a Dg with a book than a DgGl.

That said, I am not suggesting that DgGl is a bad combo, because both Dg and Gl are strong. However, as crate pointed out, starting with a melee background make you lose most of the biggest strength of Dg over other races, so it is quite silly, especially because it is not true they are bad doing that (they're better to play a book background than most races).

Maybe a book start is better, I'm not qualified to challenge that proposition. My two 15-runing Dgs were Sk and Tm, both the most hybridy starts that there are. The starts were definitely rough for both of them, I'd wager an IE would be easier, so I wouldn't recommend them over Gl, unless extra challenge == fun which is often true.

[crate]

The problem with recommending things like DgGl is that you could just recommend HuGl instead, which is better as soon as you can take a god. This is almost never what players who ask for Dg recommendations want, as far as I can tell. Dg conjurer-type backgrounds do not have this problem; DgIE has real advantages over HuIE even after you take a god. So even if DgGl is easier than DgIE, I would still recommend DgIE instead in a topic like this.

It's like how you don't recommend Trog for people playing book backgrounds. It might actually be the best way to win, but you're missing the point, since if they actually wanted Trog they'd just pick berserker instead.

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

The problem with recommending things like DgGl is that you could just recommend HuGl instead

Many people in this thread have suggested that god > Dg attributes, so I think that's covered. But given the title of the thread is "playing demigods", I don't think your criticism applies here.

[crate]

If you are playing Dg because you want a strong character instead of because you just don't want to worship a god this game

This is my starting point. If this isn't the starting point then there's nothing to argue about, since the OP is the only person who knows what type of character he is good at playing or wants to play.

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

Clearly the right answer is DgVM.

As for stat gains, they get two stat points every 3 levels in the stat they pick.

Weapon wise, do you generally go with staves or maces or something else that you can get a good weapon with low skill investment? Or is it worth it just to go big by the end of the game with them?

Staves have synergy with the elemental ones, any elemental staff with weapon skill + evoc is great, and even a basic quarterstaff is quite good as a starting weapon, so for a hybrid spellslinger staves is always a nice option to go for.

[Malevolent]

I actually think DgSu is one of the better, if not the best, Demigods. Summoners benefit from the high intelligence a lot because a lot of spells summon better stuff with higher spellpower, and because a lot of the times you want to spam high-end summons and that can get you very hungry with low Int. Summoners also don't benefit as much from a god IMO as other types of characters - Sif for channeling and Kiku for branching out into Necromancy and being able to get Haunt up quite early with the Summoning/Necromancy synergy are two of the options I like for summoners in general, but a good summoner can survive without the benefits they get from either god (usually...). Not to say they don't benefit, again, just that they do not benefit as much as a blaster-caster, or a melee fighter, or a battlemage would benefit from their own god choices.

And, finally, the most compelling reason to play DgSu: you can think of your summons as your very own little worshippers. Which a demigod needs, of course.

[ajon]

Scroll of Awesomeness has decided that DgCj needs a flaming triple sword. I think ill be fantasizing every time I cast dazzling spray that I am swinging it an a beam of sheer awesomeness flies out and blinds my enemies as they cannot stand to behold my greatness.

In reality, we all know I'm going to splat on the next floor down now.

[WingedEspeon]

DgGl doesn't get worse than HuGl when the HuGl gets a god, it gets worse than HuGl when the HuGl hits level 2. The -2 Exp apt really hurts melee Dg because xl determines HP. Also, lower Apts hurt melee starts more because you are very dependent on your weapon skill early game, whereas mages are dependent on spellskills*int. Any good book start on Dg is probably the best way to play Dg because you can take advantage of stacking a bunch of int. DgSu is good even if conjurers benifit more from spellpower just because Su is good. Wz us probably fine if you know how to play Wz really well, but it probably isn't the easiest start.

[njvack]

IE is probably best because IE is great. The one thing to note is that you'll have an easier time conjuring in heavier armour than other species, so light armour + Ozo's is maybe not quite as obvious a choice -- so the other spell-killdudes book starts look relatively a bit better.

[Tressol]

I can say from experience that DgWz is very fun (imo) and can be quite good. Also, you get the very best INT in the game, barring Chei, so there is that. The extra hp/mp and Str/Dex are also quite nice.

Of course, you have to enjoy a Wizard playstyle, and you have to rely on finding a decent Killdudes book to supplement your rockin Wizard utility. The high INT won't help too much for damage when all you have is magic dart, though it does make Slow more reliable, and that coupled with Conjure Flame and Mephetic should allow you to avoid anything you can't take until you can take it.

[svendre]

DgFE is a nice start. If instead of trying to make it a dedicated caster, you more evenly train melee/armour/casting, you can pepper stuff at range and then take the rest of the fight to melee. Being able to get away with heavier armour because of high str/int means that sticky flame is a bit easier to apply safely. Most of my fire elementalists tend to branch off into earth for molten lava bolts, which eventually get replaced with bolt of fire and iron shot. While I like earth elementalists, I don't like them at the opening of the game as much as fire. Since the aptitudes are even and all three stats fairly decent, I like to bring up more skills to at least a medium rather than a hardcore focus. If you don't take at least a little bit of most of the non-magic skills, you miss out on the benefit of one stat or another. Just because they may have fairly high int, doesn't mean they ever really need to cast anything high level. Mid level spells combined with decent melee can be pretty good for most of the game, and then there's iron shot for everything else.

[Tressol]

Demigods don't have "fairly high" INT. They have the highest INT of any species. They start tied with Deep Elves, and they can take 2 more every 3 levels, so 8 every 12 levels if you put all stat bumps to INT. Deep Elves get 1 every 3 and 1 every 4, so 7 every 12 if they pump nothing but INT. At 27, a DG with everything in INT has 3 more INT than a DE that does the same. Of course, aptitudes are a thing and DG takes longer to hit 27... But they also have nearly double a DE's hp (and a better Fighting apt, I believe) and superior physical stats - notably Str.

[TonberryJam]

I tend to start DG wizard. For more mana. Pretty standard stuff. Level relevant skills related to starter book to level 15 or 16 first. I tend to clear the regular dungeon, orc, some of elf and lair to do this.

Usually you just go full in spells or you stagger in melee training skills and defense training skills

I usually never train past skill level 15 until I reach the Depths as I find the exp is very slow otherwise. And, I can easily level up more skills to level 15. I find that getting a few skills to 20 by the end of Zot is easy, and sometimes slow if squishy.

[svendre]

Demigods don't have "fairly high" INT. They have the highest INT of any species. They start tied with Deep Elves, and they can take 2 more every 3 levels, so 8 every 12 levels if you put all stat bumps to INT. Deep Elves get 1 every 3 and 1 every 4, so 7 every 12 if they pump nothing but INT. At 27, a DG with everything in INT has 3 more INT than a DE that does the same. Of course, aptitudes are a thing and DG takes longer to hit 27... But they also have nearly double a DE's hp (and a better Fighting apt, I believe) and superior physical stats - notably Str.

"just because they may have fairly high int", taken out of context... refers to a geared character, where I talk about the fact that you don't have to focus a demigod around casting the highest level spells. It's quite possible for many races to wind up with higher Int because it was pumped (by stat selection and gear selection) without regard to other stats, and they may have a reason to do so i.e. octopode, where they cannot wear armour anyways. A balanced demigod which doesn't try casting higher than level 6 spells can be very effective when they are also reasonably armoured and possessing some stealth as well. Since your skills are multiplied against your stats, therefore when all skills are evenly -1 aptitude, you get the most bang for you buck by more evenly training more skills and keeping stats at fairly close values. Of course they can make solid high level spell casters, but as a race they don't have as much incentive as some other less balanced races with a major emphasis on casting.

[Tressol]

Perhapd I came across with a stronger stance than I intended. My point, ultimately, wasn't that DG must be high powered "casters," so much as that high powered casters can benefit from being DG, if that makes sense. With a bit of investment in Fighting and, say, staves, you can be fairly bulky, rival a DE's magic (rival, not surpass until much later, and even then not by much), and deal fair melee damage if need be.

One generally shouldn't rush level 9 spells with DG - or nearly any character for that matter.

Octopodes with a plethora of INT rings are a special case, and fairly unlikely until very late game, but I was comparing a DG to the same character, as it were, if the player had chosen HU or DE. Assuming they would find the same gear, etc. Equipment is a very big deal in Crawl - the choice of how to modify your strategy to take advantage of what Crawl gives you is a big part of the game's appeal, I think.

[TonberryJam]

Last game I played I was running a FoChei with 50str and 37int. Was casting level 9 spells at 9% with 27 armour and 27 in the school. Cleared branches of hell to go from 20-27. spell power was 2 pips short of max. Had 3 items of +5 +5 +7 int.

So for level 9 spells full Int is great on Demi-Gods. You could also go half str/int To melee with a heavy weapon in heavy armour and cast a lot of spells, maybe not super strong level 9 spells.

I think the first thing anybody should do is get their weapon of choice to min delay first along with the few skills of choice used to get to that point. Then whatever.

[ajon]

This character is still rolling btw. I had to take care of some things for a few weeks and so I'm picking him up again now. Anyways, is an early (Lair) triple sword of flaming not worth the training due to the bad apts?

[Sprucery]

-1 is not a bad apt and a triple sword of flaming is a great weapon. Don't rush to mindelay (24), though.

[TonberryJam]

If it were me I would just always have long swords on training until it was done. I learned a while ago high stats just makes it easier to wield bigger weapons with low skill levels.

You could have it at 40% of the exp and could easily rotate two sets of additional skills in to whatever level you want.