The new pro strategy: eat mutagenic meat in pan!

[tasonir]

So after fighting Mnoleg without rMut (since it no longer exists) you're almost bound to have a ton of horrible mutations. I offically recommend butchering all the ugly things and eatting all of the meat. I mean, if you have 10 potions of cure mutation, use those instead, but assuming you don't have many, mutation meat is more likely to bring you towards neutral mutations than all the negative ones you probably picked up. Here's my current game:

  Code:

_A - 14 mutagenic chunks of flesh (gained 6)
_This meat tastes really weird.
_This meat tastes really weird.
_This meat tastes really weird.
 This meat tastes really weird.
_Your body's shape seems more normal.
 This meat tastes really weird.
_You feel a little more calm.
_This meat tastes really weird.
 This meat tastes really weird.
_You feel more energetic.
_This meat tastes really weird.
 This meat tastes really weird.
_You feel stronger.
_This meat tastes really weird.
_This meat tastes really weird.
_This meat tastes really weird.
 This meat tastes really weird.
_You feel robust.
_This meat tastes really weird.

Now I'm only stuck with :

  Code:

A: fangs 3, hooves 1, large bone plates 1, blink, blurry vision 3, clumsy 2,
deterioration 1, frail 2, low mp 1, regeneration 3, teleportitis 1, evolution 1,
magic shield, antimagic bite, no device heal 3, rot immunity, subdued magic 1,
sturdy frame 1

And that's much better! (some of those are the VS innate mutations, of course) For the record, I only have 3 cure mutation potions all game...I might have to suck it up and try to cure some of this though, I mean frail 2 and Blurry vision 3 is pretty bad.

[dowan]

Why didn't you just use tactics to avoid the mutations?

[amaril]

Chei, I'd assume.

[dowan]

I was being sarcastic, that was a reference to the dev note when rMut amulets were removed.
While of course some mutations can be avoided with tactics, I have a tough time imagining what tactics would allow you to kill mnoleg without eating a lot of malmutates

[Hurkyl]

Playing keep-away with Tornado active works well.

[infinitevox]

I actually ran into Cigotuvi's Fleshworks last night.

How exactly do you successfully use tactics to avoid the nonsense in there? Also, was the guaranteed rMut amulet removed from that lab too?

#bringbackrMut

[Sar]

Mut clouds jsut give you Contam nowadays and it's not hard to minimize your time in the clouds in that Lab.

[Malevolent]

I mean frail 2 and Blurry vision 3 is pretty bad.

On a Vine Stalker?! Those are not bad, those are unimaginably horrible. Frail 2 further depletes your already meager HP pool and Blurry Vision counters the use of the only category of consumables you can rely on to get you out of bad situations given you can't quaff HW. I mean, with careful play, maybe you can still win, but there's nothing in your list of mutations that's worth those two... so quaff any cMut you can get!

Mnoleg and his gang, of course, give you mutations if you stay and fight, and can't just ninja the rune quickly. That doesn't mean you can't reduce the number of mutations you get with good tactics. Instead of "put on rMut amulet and almost forget about mutations every time you see a neqoxec or cacodemon", now the game looks like "you are bound to get some mutations, and you will get even more with poor play - but this is something you'll just have to deal with since there's not much else Mnoleg really has going for him", which I do feel is more interesting. The usual Crawl tactics - basic LOS management, luring away small groups of monsters and so on - work to reduce the number of mutations, and I imagine scrolls of immolation would also cut down on the horde of abominations and malmutators he tends to summon.

I actually ran into Cigotuvi's Fleshworks last night.

How exactly do you successfully use tactics to avoid the nonsense in there?

I would presume that you use the cMut you are guaranteed to be rewarded with in there. It's not like the place is filled with neqoxecs, at worst you'll get a few mutations due to mutagenic fog, and besides, at the end you can play mutation roulette anyway, which is pretty much the point of Cigotuvi's lab IMO.

[duvessa]

That doesn't mean you can't reduce the number of mutations you get with good tactics.

it's tasonir so he's probably not used to being able to move in combat

[dowan]

So how exactly do you melee an enemy without being in LOS? You can't save mnoleg for last, and I don't think it's good strategy to have the potential for him to drop in on you somewhere else in pan, so in what way should one move to keep mnoleg from mutating them, while also not dying, and still killing him and getting the rune?

[Malevolent]

so in what way should one move to keep mnoleg from mutating them, while also not dying, and still killing him and getting the rune?

In such a way as to minimize the number of neqoxecs and cacodemons on your screen at any given time while you and any allies you may have are hammering away on him. Similarly, the rest of the neqoxecs and cacodemons can also be fought alone or in small groups instead of being taken on all at once. Remember how you split that orc pack on D:3 so the three priests wouldn't be able to smite you all at once, and would instead come around a corridor one by one to be cut down in melee? Try to emulate that. The cacodemons may make this strategy harder by digging, of course, which is why you wanna lure him as far away from the rest of his minions as possible, and reposition if necessary.

[crate]

Honestly you should just not bother fighting mnoleg, it's not worthwhile.

[WingedEspeon]

You can get 27 throwing and 27 fighting and kill any non-unique malmutator in the game in a few turns. It probably works even better with sputerflies and PPorjectile.

[amalloy]

Honestly you should just not bother fighting mnoleg, it's not worthwhile.

Is this a tactic, or a strategy?

Seriously though, don't fight Mnoleg. I generally only fight one or two of the pan lords when I go for 15 runes (whichever ones make it too hard to sneak by them). Last time I was in Mnoleg's realm, I got hit with malmutate exactly twice:

94061 | Pan | Entered the realm of Mnoleg.
94131 | Pan | Noticed Gloorx Vloq
94138 | Pan | Identified the cursed +1 chain mail of Qammeugi {Dex+3}
94172 | Pan | Noticed Mnoleg
94172 | Pan | Lost mutation: Your mind is acute. (Int +2) [a neqoxec]
94172 | Pan | Lost mutation: You are clumsy. (Dex -2) [a neqoxec]
94177 | Pan | Got a glowing rune of Zot
94180 | Pan | Identified the +7 falchion "Jelly's Death Toll" {pain, rPois rC+ rN+ MR-}
94224 | Pan | Identified the +8 hunting sling "Sadghohie" {venom, +Fly Dex+3 SInv Stlth+}
94225 | Pan | Noticed Vebuah the pandemonium lord
94254 | Pan | Found an exit through the horrors of the Abyss.
94261 | Pan | Took an exit into the Abyss.

The time before that, I got hit with malmutate just 4 times. As it happened I was even luckier that game, because two of the mutations cancelled each other out, and one of them was rF+, so I came out of Mnoleg's realm better than I started. The key to all of this is not fighting Mnoleg, and using good tactics to minimize your exposure to cacodemons and neqoxecs as much as possible throughout the level.

[crate]

Is this a tactic, or a strategy?

Both!

[Shard1697]

Just hit up Zin after you do pan, donate all your money and then cure all mutations.

[infinitevox]

I actually ran into Cigotuvi's Fleshworks last night.

How exactly do you successfully use tactics to avoid the nonsense in there?

I would presume that you use the cMut you are guaranteed to be rewarded with in there. It's not like the place is filled with neqoxecs, at worst you'll get a few mutations due to mutagenic fog, and besides, at the end you can play mutation roulette anyway, which is pretty much the point of Cigotuvi's lab IMO.

I figured that my other question was implied:
Since rMut was removed from the game, doesn't this mean that you no longer get an amulet of rMut? It would be of whatever base-type replaced rMut...(unless they deleted rMut instead of reusing its slot in the code)

[4Hooves2Appendages]

Looks like the removal of rMut was a sneaky attempt by someone to curry favour with Zin!

[Eyesburn]

and using good tactics to minimize your exposure to cacodemons and neqoxecs as much as possible throughout the level.

it is much more tedious then swaping amulets(in 0.17)

Looks like the removal of rMut was a sneaky attempt by someone to curry favour with Zin!

it was removed just because to annoy players who played mutation roulette

[dowan]

So the strategy is to avoid fighting mnoleg, and just hope he doesn't come ruin your day somewhere else in pan? That seems risky, probably riskier than fighting him in a somewhat controlled environment and eating a few malmutates. And you are going to eat a few malmutates avoiding him anyway.

How exactly does pan lords following you work? Could mnoleg show up right after you jump into the next Pan branch? That seems a lot worse than dealing with him on a fully explored level.

[Malevolent]

So the strategy is to avoid fighting mnoleg, and just hope he doesn't come ruin your day somewhere else in pan? That seems risky, probably riskier than fighting him in a somewhat controlled environment and eating a few malmutates. And you are going to eat a few malmutates avoiding him anyway.

How exactly does pan lords following you work? Could mnoleg show up right after you jump into the next Pan branch? That seems a lot worse than dealing with him on a fully explored level.

Yeah, but the thing is, you can always just teleport away as long as you have the supplies. They show up every now and then in the ordinary Pan levels, but if you've avoided them once, you can avoid them again. If fighting Mnoleg is easier than avoiding him a few times, then yes, it's better to kill him at his home.

Oh, and they can also show up in the orb run, which is one reason why I tend to at least try to kill the unique Pan lords in their realms.

[andreas]

Oh, and they can also show up in the orb run, which is one reason why I tend to at least try to kill the unique Pan lords in their realms.

But if a unique shows up on the run, what would have happened instead, if you had killed them? Is it that the game looks to place a pan lord and the uniques are a possibility if they're alive and you've visited their homes? Or does the game look to place an enemy or a pack and the unique is in the pool of possible enemies? Or something more complicated? (Knowing crawl, my money's on the last one.)

These are not rhetorical questions; I hope someone can clarify. My point is this: what are you exchanging meeting the unique pan lord for? If it's just changing it out for a randomized pan lord, it's at least less motivation to take out the pan lord in his pan level. (If I see Cerebov on the run, at least I know his MO already.)

[4Hooves2Appendages]

Looks like the removal of rMut was a sneaky attempt by someone to curry favour with Zin!

it was removed just because to annoy players who played mutation roulette

Maybe I missed the joke, but I don't see how the amulet interacted with 'mutation roulette'. Wouldn't you take it off before mutating yourself?

[infinitevox]

You mutate yourself till you have a set of muts you're happy with, then put on the amulet so that the chance of them changing is a lot lower.

[ZoFy]

it was removed just because to annoy players who played mutation roulette

Probably just to annoy every player who tries to go for more than 3 runes. And slightly annoy everyone who can make it to Zot:5 too.
Yes, the game spawns enough cure mutation potions but the annoyance of having to respect an enemy you can kill in a couple hits is still there. It's almost like item destruction all over again but much rarer. And a nerf to beneficial mutation potions as well (once again, not crucial but just annoying).

[4Hooves2Appendages]

You mutate yourself till you have a set of muts you're happy with, then put on the amulet so that the chance of them changing is a lot lower.

I knew it! It's to get Zin more followers after all...

[Floodkiller]

Removing rMut homogenizes Extended characters towards requiring at least one of:
-a lucky stockpile of cure mut potions and never self-mutating (even beneficial) to stretch them out to last for Extended
-worship/swap to Zin or Jiyva
-learn Necromutation/be undead
-have overwhelmingly powerful ranged options and a bit of luck to not get mutated when stepping into LoS (by overwhelming I mean on par with level 9 spells or Disaster Area where the death of the monster is basically guaranteed)
-make a wall of summons/undead to hide and travel behind

In my opinion, one is required or I won't even bother an attempt (on top of the usual Extended recommendations/requirements for defenses/resistances/spells), as playing around a permenant damage mechanic that appears as commonly as Malmutate becomes too tiresome. Having one makes it entertaining but challenging, having two or more makes things trivial again.

Edit:Cut out the rant that belongs in GDD.

[Rast]

A real man would do extended with zerkitis, blurry vision, frail 3, and teleportitis, all at once!

[Eyesburn]

-learn Necromutation
-have overwhelmingly powerful ranged options and a bit of luck to not get mutated when stepping into LoS (by overwhelming I mean on par with level 9 spells or Disaster Area where the death of the monster is basically guaranteed)
-make a wall of summons/undead to hide and travel behind

no need for high lvl spells, summon butterflies+portal projectile can do the job

[Floodkiller]

-learn Necromutation
-have overwhelmingly powerful ranged options and a bit of luck to not get mutated when stepping into LoS (by overwhelming I mean on par with level 9 spells or Disaster Area where the death of the monster is basically guaranteed)
-make a wall of summons/undead to hide and travel behind

no need for high lvl spells, summon butterflies+portal projectile can do the job

That falls under the wall of summons strategy.