Is 0.18 too hard or it's just me?

[moxian]

1) Dart slugs are insane. They hit for 2d4. That's like very much comparable to a gnoll, and dart slugs - unlike gnolls - are regular (not OOD) D:1 monsters. Getting 17->10hp in one turn is very frightening

2) Playing as DsGl. Come to D:2:
_An orc comes into view. It is wielding a whip of venom.
The orc shouts!
_The orc hits you but does no damage.
_You hit the orc but do no damage. The orc barely misses you.
You hit the orc.
The orc is almost dead.
The orc hits you with a whip of venom.
You are poisoned.
The orc hits you with a whip of venom.
_You are lethally poisoned!

Now I have 22/33 hp and am lethally poisoned.
On D:2 with a chance of not having potion of curing (I do have 4 potions and am yet to learn whether I live or die)

3) This is my 3rd (out of 4) 0.18 char that is about to lose to poison in one way or another - previous two got lethaly poisoned by adder (thrice!) and Sigmud, had to quaff all the potions to barely stay alive.

Is there anything I can do to fare better? Is it just tough luck? Or is 0.18 actually harder?

[Tiktacy]

If it says you are lethally wounded you are only lethally wounded in that moment, if you regenerate enough health you can survive.

I haven't had any trouble with the early game though personally, and definitely not with dart slugs.

[infinitevox]

I second Dart Slugs being strong.
I actually think they're a good monster for early game though, as it very quickly teaches you the importance of positioning and how to deal with heavy hitting ranged threats.
They almost prepare you for things like Orc Priests (and later on tormentors).

[Tiktacy]

I second Dart Slugs being strong.
I actually think they're a good monster for early game though, as it very quickly teaches you the importance of positioning and how to deal with heavy hitting ranged threats.
They almost prepare you for things like Orc Priests (and later on Centaurs).

ftfy

[Hurkyl]

Do you realize that 2d4 can kill some early characters at full health?

[infinitevox]

Then they should get good.

[Tiktacy]

Do you realize that 2d4 can kill some early characters at full health?

Do you realize that that's intentional? The devs want there to be unavoidable deaths in the game, without the threat of unavoidable death then there is no chance of failure when you are playing optimally and the game becomes a chore.

[nago]

Do you realize that 2d4 can kill some early characters at full health?

They are also slow. So unless they unlikely one shot a char the same turn they get in los (and I don't know if is technically possible for a slow monster do that) they aren't a danger at all. I'd like them as weak ranged enemies, good to teach positioning, if they were speed 10.

A kobold with a blowgun is actually more dangerous, and early D is pretty much identical to 0.17.
There are actually some minor changes, but the only I can remember now actually makes things easier (no D1 net gnolls).

In depths and some other branches there are new stupidly strong or revamped enemies but they can't do nothing against a char at that point like the last stupidly strong enemies added.

[Sar]

So, uh, why didn't you either use your nets on the whip of venom orc, or just walked away? I'd probably use a net, that way I'd kill him and take his whip and probably use it.

[Magipi]

So, uh, why didn't you either use your nets on the whip of venom orc, or just walked away? I'd probably use a net, that way I'd kill him and take his whip and probably use it.

If you need to use a net against a simple orc, that suggests that the game is hard.

[Sar]

That wasn't a simple orc, that was an orc with a weapon of venom on D:2.

If you can just tab an enemy with an extremely dangerous branded weapon on the very second floor of the game, that suggests the game is too easy.

[Malevolent]

Venom and Electrocution are OP on monsters in the early game, so that's normal. Your sample size is extremely small, though. On the average, a powerful race like Ds might find a few games are lost to unfair bullshit like Sigmund suddenly appearing next to you on D:2, but a good portion of games should (with reasonably good play) easily make it to Lair at least.

I never had trouble with Dart Slugs except on really weak characters, but I definitely agree with infinitevox - they actually have a pretty nice role in preparing newbies for taking on ranged monsters.

[moxian]

Do you realize that 2d4 can kill some early characters at full health?

They are also slow. So unless they unlikely one shot a char the same turn they get in los (and I don't know if is technically possible for a slow monster do that) they aren't a danger at all. I'd like them as weak ranged enemies, good to teach positioning, if they were speed 10.

I'm fine with them being weak ranged enemies. My problem is that melee backgrounds almost die to them 1v1 even with good positioning (luring them out, and never having more than 1 space between you and them). Right now they are not a "ranged giant newt", but rather "a ranged gnoll".
Them being slow does not help much, if your only form of attack is melee.
I admit I have never yet actually died to a slug, but there were several times where I was very close to that (my DgFi got to 1hp in a straight melee with the slug once)

So, uh, why didn't you either use your nets on the whip of venom orc, or just walked away? I'd probably use a net, that way I'd kill him and take his whip and probably use it.

He was sleeping, and I wanted to try and stab him (and almost succeeded).
Netting him first would be a better strategy, you are right, thanks.
I never pay attention if monsters are actually wielding anything dangerous. Mostly because it's very noisy - the log text for "An orc comes into view. It is wielding a whip of venom." and "An orc comes into view. It is wielding a whip." is very similar (at a glance). It's very hard to pay full attention to every message to extract that information from the noise.
Could, it maybe help to have a glowing tile for branded weapons wielded by monsters?
Alternatively, I think I can set up a force_more for branded weapons, but that would become really noisy, tiresome and useless at later levels...
How do you keep focused on what the monsters wearing/wielding, and prevent this info from becoming a noise?

[Sar]

Them being slow does not help much, if your only form of attack is melee.

Well, you don't have to kill every enemy on the level before you can proceed to the next one.

[moxian]

Are you saying, backgrounds without innate ranged attack should never confront dart slugs ever, and just dive to D:2 leaving half D:1 unexplored?

[Tiktacy]

Are you saying, backgrounds without innate ranged attack should never confront dart slugs ever, and just dive to D:2 leaving half D:1 unexplored?

If you are a felid, spriggan, or an octopode then sure, thats totally a viable option simply because you might not have the defenses to handle them without risk. I wouldn't bother doing that, because that's kind of lame and unfun, but to each their own.

Aside from that, 2d4 really isn't that bad for a character with leather, ring mail, or even just half decent starting HP. You are really over-estimating how strong they are, gnolls come in packs, thats what makes them challenging, dart slugs come in singles and I don't believe they attack every turn like gnolls do.

[Psieye]

Alternatively, I think I can set up a force_more for branded weapons, but that would become really noisy, tiresome and useless at later levels...
How do you keep focused on what the monsters wearing/wielding, and prevent this info from becoming a noise?

I think you can put a script on force_more. Ask around.

Still, noticing information among noise is a player skill. With practice it becomes almost effortless.

[HardboiledGargoyle]

Could, it maybe help to have a glowing tile for branded weapons wielded by monsters?

You could try playing a tiles version instead of console. Branded/enchanted weapons have their own graphics, so they stand out.

[moxian]

If you are a felid, spriggan, or an octopode then sure, thats totally a viable option simply because you might not have the defenses to handle them without risk. I wouldn't bother doing that, because that's kind of lame and unfun, but to each their own.

Aside from that, 2d4 really isn't that bad for a character with leather, ring mail, or even just half decent starting HP. You are really over-estimating how strong they are

That all sounds reasonable, and I would have agreed with you, if I wasn't brought to 1hp from full in a straight melee-from-around-the-corner as a DgFi. Demigod Fighter. In scale mail and a shield, and having more-than-usual starting hp.

gnolls come in packs, thats what makes them challenging, dart slugs come in singles

I was comparing sluts to gnolls all this time, because 1) dart slugs do 2d4 damage and gnolls do up to 9 damage (http://crawl.develz.org/info/index.php?q=gnoll) 2) A singular gnoll is an OOD for D:1

As an aside, some statistics:

  Code:

<moxian> !lg * s=killer v~~0.18 start>="2016-04-07" D:1
<Sequell> 22423 games for * (v~~0.18 start>=2016-04-07 D:1):
10003x,
2378x a hobgoblin,
1887x a jackal,
1771x a kobold,
1277x a gnoll,
1037x a giant gecko,
981x a goblin,
663x a dart slug,
414x a bat,
391x an adder,
359x an ooze,
288x a rat,
211x a giant cockroach,
187x a worm,
171x a giant newt
....

It seems that dart slug is less dangerous than goblins/kobolds/geckos, BUT (and that's anecdote, I know) over the last three games I have not encountered a single slug on D:1 (no gnolls either, though).


Okay, fine, I'll accept that I just had a patch of bad luck, and will come back after I've had a bit more experience with 0.18.

Thanks everyone for your replies!

You could try playing a tiles version instead of console. Branded/enchanted weapons have their own graphics, so they stand out.

I play tiles, but never before noticed that wielded branded weapons have different tiles. I see it now. Thanks a lot!

[Eyesburn]

Is 0.18 too hard or it's just me?

I will quote Charly, guess he said that but not because of dart slugs

so far I can say that this version is harder than 0.17

that version is bulshit

its severely fucked up
thats all I havre to say ;p

and one more

  Code:

Charly: THIS IS FUCKING BULSHIT VERSION
Charly: SERIOUSLY
M4edhros: yes it is
Charly: FUCK THIS

[duvessa]

I was comparing sluts to gnolls all this time

FR: dart sluts

-----

There are a few reasons Crawl (and games in general) can seem to be getting harder. Some of them are real and others are psychological.

First, a real reason: If a game's balance team is competent and actually has the goal of balancing the game, they are going to get rid of overpowered and centralizing options. Detect Creatures, old summoning, etc. People often counter this with "but they buff/add things too", but buffing weak options doesn't actually compensate at all: it's the power of the best available options that matters for difficulty. So unless your buff makes an option into the best option (which does happen occasionally: deep dwarf, then Fedhas, then throwing), the buff doesn't significantly reduce the difficulty of the game.
Most of the devteam, historically and currently, explicitly do not care about balancing races, backgrounds, and gods, so impactful balance changes are rarer than you might expect.

The number of different monsters, items, abilities, status effects, etc. generally increases as the version number increases. Because of this, you can argue that learning the game has become more difficult (and I have argued exactly that, many times). However, if you are willing to source dive everything then this only matters in the sense of cognitive overload.

A Crawl-specific psychological issue: often existing monsters get changed, instead of being replaced by new monsters. If you played 0.13 and encounter a manticore in 0.14+ (same name, glyph, etc. as in 0.13) then you are not going to expect the impact damage on Barbs to be higher than the impact damage on 0.13 tail spikes (it is higher), you probably aren't going to expect it to be faster (it is faster), and you are certainly not going to expect it to do more than double its old melee damage (it does more than double its old melee damage). The same goes for many other monster changes, like how the introduction of constriction hugely increased the damage done by anaconda simulacra. This is a lot more pronounced with monsters than it is for abilities, spells, items, etc. although obviously it occurs there too.
Of course, this can also be corrected by constant source diving but players generally do not want to do that for every feature every version - they just ask Cheibriados about each new or renamed monster.

I do not think the last few versions have made the game much easier or harder, I think 0.5 is the easiest version I'm familiar with and 0.6 is the hardest.

[Tiktacy]

If you are a felid, spriggan, or an octopode then sure, thats totally a viable option simply because you might not have the defenses to handle them without risk. I wouldn't bother doing that, because that's kind of lame and unfun, but to each their own.

Aside from that, 2d4 really isn't that bad for a character with leather, ring mail, or even just half decent starting HP. You are really over-estimating how strong they are

That all sounds reasonable, and I would have agreed with you, if I wasn't brought to 1hp from full in a straight melee-from-around-the-corner as a DgFi. Demigod Fighter. In scale mail and a shield, and having more-than-usual starting hp.

C L U S T E R I N G _ I L L U S I O N

[yesno]

Are you saying, backgrounds without innate ranged attack should never confront dart slugs ever, and just dive to D:2 leaving half D:1 unexplored?

you just go around a corner and wait for it to approach, then kill it...