Troll+Transmuter?

[pyromatic]

So I was exploring some of the suggestions the game makes when you go by background first, instead of species.

Obviously, there is some inherent differences between the focuses, but as the title suggests, I'm curious to know how effective a Troll Transmuter is. And if so, should one try to focus on full body transformations? (I.E Ice Beast, Hydra, Spider) Or should one focus on half transformations like Blade Hands?

I've enjoyed Trolls for the beautiful melee monsters that they are. But looking at their aptitudes for Transformation and Spellcasting makes it look very unattractive (-3 & -5).

So, back to the point, is this a viable and effective combination?

[wizzzargh]

I'm pretty sure Trollform is better or at least on par with most transmutations outside of niche cases.

If I was going to be a troll transmuter, I'd probably get sticks-to-snakes online as a summoning/escape option but then stick with straightforward troll claws and large rocks. I'm not too familiar with the exact damage of forms, but I imagine the horrible spellcasting apts mean that putting your XP straight into Fighting/Unarmed Combat/Shields/Dodging/Etc is far superior than wasting XP trying to be a spider.

[pyromatic]

That was my initial thoughts concerning it as well. I was under the impression that due to the general rough and tough nature of the Troll, it would be benefited by later transformations. Except I'm not too knowledgeable on the hard numbers of the forms themselves, so I could be wrong.

Is sticks-to-snakes really that strong later on? A swarm of serpents seems only good for so long.

[braveplatypus]

I have seen this done effectively a few times, the real centerpiece spell for this build is statue form ("Stone Claws"), usually done with Cheibriados for his +15 intelligence. Trolls also have a pretty clean -1 earth magic.

[Tiktacy]

I have seen this done effectively a few times, the real centerpiece spell for this build is statue form ("Stone Claws"), usually done with Cheibriados for his +15 intelligence. Trolls also have a pretty clean -1 earth magic.

Reminder that cheibriados is a challenge god. If you realistically wanted to do statue form as a troll(which you really shouldn't do imo) then sif muna would be your go to choice since sif is the only way to reliably acquire the spell and her miscast protection means one can repeatedly cast it at only 50% success then go down a staircase to clean up shop.

Statue form honestly kind of sucks when your a chei follower, especially compared to blade hands which can most likely offer much larger base damage as well as overall damage IN ADDITION to not having the speed malice. The only thing statue form offers is GDR and a boost to HP, which is only slightly better than wearing ice or fire dragon armor.

I really can't find a single situation in which I would want to use statue form outside of maybe tomb or something if you already have a lot of experience invested into earth magic for shatter or something. Octopodes and felids may benefit from this spell, but that's about it. It doesn't help that the spell is extremely rare.

[WingedEspeon]

Trolls make great transmuters because you want to use UC as a troll anyway. This means your early game is very similar to a monk. Later you can get blade hands which will give you a huge spike in unarmed damage.

[duvessa]

Statue form is not the center of TrTm. TrTm doesn't even start with statue form, although it is pretty good for trolls if you do find it. Definitely don't go chei if you are trying to make a good character, pick a god that isn't bad instead. Like ely or fedhas or jiyva or makhleb or okawaru or ru. The latter two are especially appealing on Tr.

Generally you should play TrTm like other Tms, with the added understanding that forms make you lose less AC/EV than they do on other races, which balances out the lack of claw damage on spider/ice/hydra form.

[Eyesburn]

If you realistically wanted to do statue form as a troll(which you really shouldn't do imo) then sif muna would be your go to choice

Not sure but sif muna does not look like realistic choice for transmuter/melee troll. Theres enough exp in the game to get statue form online.

The only thing statue form offers is GDR and a boost to HP

Reminder on some other stuff that statue form offers:

  Code:

Unarmed Combat Base Damage = UC+6+(Strength/3))
+50% damage bonus to all melee attacks
+2 strength
A huge AC bonus (17 + (spell power)/10, max 37)
Immunity to poison
Electricity resistance
One rank of life protection
50% reduction to torment damage
Rot resistance

So, back to the point, is this a viable and effective combination?

You can go UC+Fighting+Dodging+Armour (and wear some dragon armour eventually)
or
UC+Fighting+Dodging+Transmutations (without armour skill but getting transmutaions for statue form eventually)

[Tiktacy]

Sif muna's miscast protection sort of moves the goalpost for whats considered "Online" when pertaining to statue form. The only real problem is that you are forced to invest your skills into magic, but I would be willing to bet that the amount of transmutations and earth magic required to reach reasonable casting levels would be probably be enough to get your miscast protection. Sif is also the only way to for sure get statue form.

However, the amount of investment to get a level 6 double-school spell online for a race with the worst magic aptitudes in the game and the lowest intelligence is so high that its just not worth the investment. Consider the amount of experience it would take to accomplish this. Then consider how much benefit you could have gained from that experience if you had invested it elsewhere such as higher fighting, more UC, armor/dodging, and evocations.

That 50% damage increase is offset by the speed malice, the AC bonus is nice but enemies are going to be hitting you 1.5x more, which is something that needs to be taken into account and may or may not cancel out its effectiveness. The immunities/resistances would offer a certain level of convenience, although they don't add a lot to the overall appeal of statue form imo. rElec is certainly nice.

All I'm saying is that statue form isn't all its cracked up to be. On a felid or an octopode maybe, since they both don't have access to GDR and get a huge benefit from the AC, on top of having solid magic aptitudes that can potentially overlap well with SF. Aside from those two cases though, I just can't see myself ever using it. Maybe I'm wrong and just don't recognize the benefits, but this is me speaking from the experience I've had with SF and the things Ive heard on these forums.

[Eyesburn]

wall of text

TrTm doesn't even start with statue form, although it is pretty good for trolls if you do find it.

duvessa said it and I won't argue with her authority

Like ely or fedhas or jiyva or makhleb or okawaru or ru. The latter two are especially appealing on Tr.

no mention of sif muna

[Tiktacy]

wall of text

TrTm doesn't even start with statue form, although it is pretty good for trolls if you do find it.

duvessa said it and I won't argue with her authority

Like ely or fedhas or jiyva or makhleb or okawaru or ru. The latter two are especially appealing on Tr.

no mention of sif muna

The portion about gods was relating to playing a good character and not worshipping chei. Sif muna is a poor choice for trolls yes, but if you are really really persistent and want to get statue form, sif muna is the only way to make sure you will get it. That's all I was saying.

What I was talking about was playing a hypothetical character in which the main goal is to acquire statue form and get it online. Also, I was mainly responding to the comment about statue form being a center piece of troll transmutations, which it isn't. It might be useful, but calling it a center piece, comparing it to something like freezing cloud for a blaster caster or invisibility for an enchanter, just doesn't seem accurate.

Duvessa was saying that if you manage to find statue form while already playing a troll transmuter, then it is pretty good. Which I partially agree with, but only to the extent that its good in rare circumstances.

[Eyesburn]

but this is me speaking from the experience I've had with SF and the things Ive heard on these forums.

don't take for granted what you heard on these forums,
my experience with SF is different, played it numerous times, even with Chei

[crate]

sif is basically godless for transmuter, which is normally really bad since tm needs help asap, though since you're a troll godless is okay

you won't get gifts unless you ruin your character to begin with so she doesnt even actually help you get statue form

that said it's still way worse than a god that actually does something useful

[dowan]

Early game for a troll transmuter is similar to early game for a troll monk, that is to say, pretty easy. Plus you can fairly easily get sticks to snakes going, which is good.

I'd just play it as a standard troll, probably picking oka, mahkleb, or some generally good god. I don't like fedhas's gameplay, but he's a very powerful god as well.

Then I'd just hope for statue form to show up at some point. I'd probably even go so far as to try to acquire books, although that's a crapshoot, and not the best way to get a win. But then again, neither is picking tm for a troll.
If you do get statue form, it'll take some xp investment to get it going (this is where oka helps pick up the slack on the fighting skills you won't be training as much). Once you actually do get it working, it's a lot of fun, and you'll feel invincible. Makes for a pretty easy extended game in my experience.

[duvessa]

the chance of getting statue form from book acquirement is probably about as good as the chance of getting statue form from food acquirement

[Tiktacy]

the chance of getting statue form from book acquirement is probably about as good as the chance of getting statue form from food acquirement

Why can't you get statue form from acquirement?

[duvessa]

you can get statue form from acquirement, it's just very unlikely that book acquirement will actually give you spells you want

[dowan]

Very unlikely is like infinity% more than impossible. Still generally a bad way to spend acquirement, especially on a troll, but if you're determined to get statue form you might as well try.