Why do player ghosts seem to block or dodge all my attacks?


Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.

Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Tuesday, 19th April 2016, 19:02

Why do player ghosts seem to block or dodge all my attacks?

But for some reason they can hit me for massive damage just fine. I'm an OpTm so asking for durability is a lot, but I shouldn't have much problem wailing on my own ghost, another OpTm. Of course it's rare that the game is even that generous, because half of the time they're berserker minotaurs or ogres and even when they're not they're still crazy durable and deadly.

So yeah, ogres. Why are they so hard to do damage to? Last time I checked ogres take lots of damage because of no AC or EV, yet ghosts apparently circumvent this rule?

The optimal strategy seems to be leaving the floor and coming back through another entrance. And doing it again. And again. And again. And again about another 1000 times as I desperately try to explore the entirety of D:3. It's tedious as hell, but I can't fight them of course because then they just kill me in 3 hits. Am I missing something? Is there some special undocumented anti-ghost attack that I need to be aware of?

I hate ghosts so much. Why are they in the game? I cannot name a single unique that I have a harder time killing than the average ghost outside of lategame ones, and only because by then I have Dispel Undead.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 19th April 2016, 19:29

Re: Why do player ghosts seem to block or dodge all my attac

monsters universally have awful ac/ev compared to players, that's why

and yes, stairs are the correct response to a player ghost approximately 100% of the time

Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Tuesday, 19th April 2016, 19:42

Re: Why do player ghosts seem to block or dodge all my attac

duvessa wrote:monsters universally have awful ac/ev compared to players, that's why

and yes, stairs are the correct response to a player ghost approximately 100% of the time


Is there a way to deal with ghosts that doesn't involve making the game terribly tedious and annoying?

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 19th April 2016, 19:43

Re: Why do player ghosts seem to block or dodge all my attac

nope

Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Tuesday, 19th April 2016, 19:49

Re: Why do player ghosts seem to block or dodge all my attac

So why are they still in the game?

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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Tuesday, 19th April 2016, 20:09

Re: Why do player ghosts seem to block or dodge all my attac

You have stumbled onto the right answer!
There are a variety of ways ghosts are terrible, this is one of them.
But at least you get the fantastic opportunity to see what a 10 year old thought was funny. Oh fartface69, I see you died a whole level earlier than the mighty DigBickFYourMom did. But neither of you compare to ReverClatialSlur!

Oh, this is advice, not GDD sorry.
Your approach of retreating is correct most of the time. If you luck into an early holy wrath weapon you'll have an easier time with ghosts. If you get dispel undead ghosts won't really stand a chance against you.

Conjure flames also does quite well vs early ghosts, I find fire elementalists and wizards pretty good for ghost killing for that reason.

Duvessa explained pretty well why you have so much trouble hurting them. Players generally have much better defenses than monsters, and ghosts get to keep that defense.
Last edited by dowan on Tuesday, 19th April 2016, 20:12, edited 1 time in total.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 19th April 2016, 20:10

Re: Why do player ghosts seem to block or dodge all my attac

PowerOfKaishin wrote:So why are they still in the game?
because they're coooooool and nethack had them so naturally crawl has to have them

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nago

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Post Tuesday, 19th April 2016, 20:15

Re: Why do player ghosts seem to block or dodge all my attac

potion of lig > player ghosts

well, sometimes

Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Tuesday, 19th April 2016, 20:16

Re: Why do player ghosts seem to block or dodge all my attac

duvessa wrote:
PowerOfKaishin wrote:So why are they still in the game?
because they're coooooool and nethack had them so naturally crawl has to have them


They don't drop their items though. It's like crawl took the worst parts of them.

Duvy if I told you my birthday was today would you get rid of them for me?

Piginabag wrote:potion of lig > player ghosts

well, sometimes


Oh.

Yeah, that could work. If I have one on me I'll give it a try next time. Lig with UC is disgusting.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 19th April 2016, 20:24

Re: Why do player ghosts seem to block or dodge all my attac

do you people think im a dev or something

Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Tuesday, 19th April 2016, 20:33

Re: Why do player ghosts seem to block or dodge all my attac

No, they think you're an elf who can go berserk. Go kill the ghosts!

To the OP, I forgot to mention, berserk is a great way to kill ghosts, if you have an unlimited source. I wouldn't waste a potion just to kill a ghost.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 19th April 2016, 20:41

Re: Why do player ghosts seem to block or dodge all my attac

dowan wrote:No, they think you're an elf who can go berserk. Go kill the ghosts!
well i can't do it while you're still alive

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 19th April 2016, 20:43

Re: Why do player ghosts seem to block or dodge all my attac

PowerOfKaishin wrote:They don't drop their items though. It's like crawl took the worst parts of them.

Well if they had the loot it would be even worse...

While you're waiting for ghosts to be removed from the game, you can play offline and delete all ghosts manually.
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DgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}
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Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Tuesday, 19th April 2016, 21:23

Re: Why do player ghosts seem to block or dodge all my attac

Sprucery wrote:
PowerOfKaishin wrote:They don't drop their items though. It's like crawl took the worst parts of them.

Well if they had the loot it would be even worse...

While you're waiting for ghosts to be removed from the game, you can play offline and delete all ghosts manually.

Trunk updates too often for that.

Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Tuesday, 19th April 2016, 21:40

Re: Why do player ghosts seem to block or dodge all my attac

duvessa wrote:do you people think im a dev or something


Yes

Blades Runner

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Post Wednesday, 20th April 2016, 11:05

Re: Why do player ghosts seem to block or dodge all my attac

Scrolls of summoning do a pretty good job on ghosts, as do several evocable items which summon stuff. In that manner, you can also avoid getting mangled. An Octopode TM... hmm couldn't you make a whole ton of snakes easily? Even if the summons don't do a ton of damage, getting the ghost surrounded will give opportunities to get hard hits in on it, and give you a way to escape.

Your biggest advantage for killing a ghost is that you can use stairs without being followed. This allows you to make a plan of attack where you optimize your gear/resists and/or buff with potions, etc. to specifically counter what the ghost is good at and vulnerable to. Make sure you view the details of the ghost by using the x command and pulling up it's info so you see what it resists and what its AC/EV, etc. are. If it's got low EV use a heavier weapon, if it's got high EV maybe use a more accurate weapon, etc. etc. You can't cripple them with draining, but you can usually gimp them with a blast from a wand of acid.

I find that ghosts seem to give pretty decent XP, and I rarely ever skip killing one even if it means I need to spend something to do it. Junk piles up too quickly for inventory anyhow, what better use of consumables/evocables than to get XP is there really.
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Pandemonium Purger

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Post Wednesday, 20th April 2016, 14:57

Re: Why do player ghosts seem to block or dodge all my attac

usualy the right thing to do is skip them and com back when you are like 3 levels higher and down have to burn consumables.
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I achieved greatplayer in less than a year.
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Post Wednesday, 20th April 2016, 15:04

Re: Why do player ghosts seem to block or dodge all my attac

PowerOfKaishin wrote:
duvessa wrote:because they're coooooool and nethack had them so naturally crawl has to have them


They don't drop their items though. It's like crawl took the worst parts of them.


Dropping their items was a pretty terrible part of them

Tomb Titivator

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Post Thursday, 21st April 2016, 04:13

Re: Why do player ghosts seem to block or dodge all my attac

The first time I ever saw a Crawl ghost, I got excited, expecting loot. I was very disappointed.

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Post Thursday, 21st April 2016, 14:50

Re: Why do player ghosts seem to block or dodge all my attac

Me too, but then I thought about it and remembered the times that a ghost in Nethack literally handed me all the items I needed to ascend, and I said to myself, "Boy, am I glad that Crawl ghosts are just obnoxious and not just the worst possible idea in a game with any sort of balance"

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 21st April 2016, 19:30

Re: Why do player ghosts seem to block or dodge all my attac

ZipZipskins wrote:not just the worst possible idea in a game with any sort of balance
Hey, second place is still pretty good!

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Post Thursday, 21st April 2016, 22:50

Re: Why do player ghosts seem to block or dodge all my attac

Features of Crawl:
-orb spiders
-food
-silver medal ghosts
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Thursday, 21st April 2016, 23:41

Re: Why do player ghosts seem to block or dodge all my attac

So I just slashed my index finger open while cutting onions and i need to stop the bleeding before i mix up some meatloaf.

When my finger stops dripping blood everywhere, I will eventually have meatloaf.

When you guys finish bitching about Crawl I will have still played Crawl, Sil, DoomRL, Caves of Qud, and several other roguelikes and still eaten meatloaf.
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Pandemonium Purger

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Post Friday, 22nd April 2016, 06:13

Re: Why do player ghosts seem to block or dodge all my attac

do player ghosts end up buffed compared to the actual character that dies?
because I often have trouble killing what should be an easy ghost based on the character I was playing when it died.
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Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Friday, 22nd April 2016, 12:58

Re: Why do player ghosts seem to block or dodge all my attac

prozacelf wrote:So I just slashed my index finger open while cutting onions and i need to stop the bleeding before i mix up some meatloaf.

When my finger stops dripping blood everywhere, I will eventually have meatloaf.

When you guys finish bitching about Crawl I will have still played Crawl, Sil, DoomRL, Caves of Qud, and several other roguelikes and still eaten meatloaf.


Yeah but this view point comes with the unfortunate downside that you ate meatloaf.

WingedEspeon wrote:do player ghosts end up buffed compared to the actual character that dies?
because I often have trouble killing what should be an easy ghost based on the character I was playing when it died.


This, so much. This is what is meant by the title. It really feels like they get a massive buff. Let me tell you my dead octopodes are not tanky and they don't use transmutations to buff themselves (you know, being undead and all).
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Blades Runner

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Post Saturday, 23rd April 2016, 01:24

Re: Why do player ghosts seem to block or dodge all my attac

Ghosts are immune to constriction, right? (I think.)

So if you're playing an octopode they're going to be more dangerous is melee than other things.

Also, general question, did Draconian ghosts get nerfed? They seem a lot less spam-breath-weapon-till-you-die lately.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 23rd April 2016, 02:07

Re: Why do player ghosts seem to block or dodge all my attac

as minmay said in the first reply to this topic, what you are seeing is that players are not monsters

player ghosts don't actually get buffed defensively compared to players
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Swamp Slogger

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Post Sunday, 24th April 2016, 22:19

Re: Why do player ghosts seem to block or dodge all my attac

crate wrote:as minmay said in the first reply to this topic, what you are seeing is that players are not monsters

player ghosts don't actually get buffed defensively compared to players


Ghosts are using the player's stats exactly. So they become pretty damn awful compared to monsters of the same depth. Orc Knights have only 11 AC and most fighters by the time they reach that point will have double that amount. Hell you'll have more health than them too if you've been training Fighting like you're supposed to.
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Monday, 25th April 2016, 18:09

Re: Why do player ghosts seem to block or dodge all my attac

Don't orc knights have 11 base AC plus whatever kind of armor they're wearing? Or have I totally forgotton how monster armor works?

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 25th April 2016, 18:18

Re: Why do player ghosts seem to block or dodge all my attac

orc knights have 2/13 defenses when naked (https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/mas ... ta.h#l1704)

at some point chei and gretell stopped giving you the naked ac/ev of monsters and started lying to you by giving you the ac/ev of some particular monster that is not every monster of that type, so the ac/ev chei/gretell give you includes armour, but you don't know which armour

edit: actually it might be the average AC/EV of all the monsters generated to check the stats

i have no idea why this change happened and it is really bad

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Barkeep

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Post Monday, 25th April 2016, 20:10

Re: Why do player ghosts seem to block or dodge all my attac

To what extent does player melee combat differ from monster melee combat?

I kind of feel like if I melee a ghost from an identical character to mine, I should have a 50% chance of beating it, but I feel like the odds are much in the ghost's favor. But this might be because a 50% chance-of-death encounter is hilariously dangerous in crawl.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 25th April 2016, 20:35

Re: Why do player ghosts seem to block or dodge all my attac

ghost melee is not the same as player melee at all, and it might actually be stronger than player melee sometimes (I'm way too lazy to do any sort of figuring this out)

this is why I was careful to say ghosts are not defensively stronger than players above
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Slime Squisher

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Post Tuesday, 26th April 2016, 14:11

Re: Why do player ghosts seem to block or dodge all my attac

arent ghosts extra evasive due to incorporeal status?
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 26th April 2016, 17:45

Re: Why do player ghosts seem to block or dodge all my attac

No.

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