Orc High Priests should not be able to summon Sixfirhies.

[PowerOfKaishin]

I know this sounds oddly specific, but this creature should never appear OOD, especially from a high priest. It's just way too strong and deadly.

It is an extremely random monster, with the RNG deciding whether or not it will do nothing or warp right next to you and attack you 4 times in one turn for what is a fairly nasty amount of damage without rElec. This monster is essentially a hydra that you can't run away from, but only when it feels like it. This is a terrible idea on its own but it works because normally this monster appears only when the player is a high enough level that it can't deal a large chunk of the player's HP in a one-on-one fight and simply serves as nuisance backup monster (as it should). However, in the hands of an orc high priest it can absolutely decimate characters, especially when coupled with all of the other demons and the high priest itself.

And yes, before you ask, I did just die to one. It's ridiculous how much stronger this monster is compared to anything else a high priest can throw at you.

Mod edit: moved to advice.

[Hellmonk]

I don't think sixfirhy qualifies as an out of depth encounter by the time you're running into high priests. You should have a means of dealing with one by the time you do orc, and it's good that sometimes high priests can pull something that you can't just walk backwards from, forcing some actual decision making and/or use of consumables. If anything, some of the other common demons are too weak since they're essentially non-issues in most encounters with demon summoning enemies.

[Quazifuji]

I'm incline to agree. I think Sixfirhies are somewhat problematic as far as threat detection goes because of the areas they're encountered. Most of the time, I think they're encountered late enough in the game that many characters can practically treat them as popcorn. This makes the fact that they're sometimes among the most dangerous monsters that can be summoned by orc high priests fairly deceptive.

[duvessa]

Sixfirhies are a lot more dangerous than any other demon below rank 2, and more dangerous than the majority of the rank 2 demons on top of that. Moving it to rank 2 makes sense to me.
For that matter, is there even a useful difference between ranks 3 and 4? They're summoned by the same spells/abilities and the two ranks wouldn't reflect the relative danger of the monsters even with sixfirhies moved.

[Tiktacy]

Sixfirhies are a lot more dangerous than any other demon below rank 2, and more dangerous than the majority of the rank 2 demons on top of that. Moving it to rank 2 makes sense to me.
For that matter, is there even a useful difference between ranks 3 and 4? They're summoned by the same spells/abilities and the two ranks wouldn't reflect the relative danger of the monsters even with sixfirhies moved.

PENTAgram

gotta have 5 tiers or the flavor isn't as tasty.

There isn't anything wrong with having two similar tiers anyway(considering they are kind of arbitrary to begin with), tiers are just a general estimation of power that don't really mean anything aside from that. I do agree that maybe they should be moved to tier 2 though, six-furries are pretty devastating.

Also, just kill the orc high priest before it summons one, and if it summons it right away then try to kill the orc high priest quickly to avoid getting rekt by demon lightning.

I actually really like orc priests as they are. I should have put them on my list of well designed monsters, to me they are kind of like the boss monsters of orc:$, both by flavor and danger level(for me at least).

[duvessa]

Sixfirhies are a lot more dangerous than any other demon below rank 2, and more dangerous than the majority of the rank 2 demons on top of that. Moving it to rank 2 makes sense to me.
For that matter, is there even a useful difference between ranks 3 and 4? They're summoned by the same spells/abilities and the two ranks wouldn't reflect the relative danger of the monsters even with sixfirhies moved.

PENTAgram

gotta have 5 tiers or the flavor isn't as tasty.

Highest tier: demon lords
High tier: current 1s
Mid tier: current 2s
Low tier: current 3s and 4s
Lowest tier: current 5s

Looks like 5 tiers to me.

I suppose it would be good to decide how many monsters you actually want in each tier. Currently 2 is much larger than the others. And it's nice to have monsters spread over as many different console glyphs as possible.

[dynast]

Sun demons are ok then?

[Tiktacy]

Sun demons are ok then?

Sun demons need to chase you down, even if they are fast, at least they are predictable.

[Malevolent]

At the end of the day, this suggestion, like all the uproar about caustic shrikes, just boils down to "I want to make the game easier because screw real challenges". Sixfirhies in Orc are fine. Caustic shrikes are fine. Especially since the areas they appear in are not usually that challenging anyway. It's not like orc summons are usually that dangerous anyway, since a lot of characters (including most mages) can just blast away the priest in 2-3 turns, and voila, no more sixfirhy. Melee characters can use the terrain to get into an advantageous position and then bash in the priest's skull. Again, no more sixfirhy.

[dynast]

at least they are predictable.

Thats what i expect to read, Sixfirhies needs to go because the player cannot afford to manage their risks, its not about the danger, its the "potential danger".

[PowerOfKaishin]

At the end of the day, this suggestion, like all the uproar about caustic shrikes, just boils down to "I want to make the game easier because screw real challenges". Sixfirhies in Orc are fine. Caustic shrikes are fine. Especially since the areas they appear in are not usually that challenging anyway. It's not like orc summons are usually that dangerous anyway, since a lot of characters (including most mages) can just blast away the priest in 2-3 turns, and voila, no more sixfirhy. Melee characters can use the terrain to get into an advantageous position and then bash in the priest's skull. Again, no more sixfirhy.

Funnily enough, trying to kill the orc priest extremely quickly is what got me into this mess in the first place. Also, the opening post clearly listed the dangers in orc summons. 2-3 turns is 8-12 possible sixfirhy attacks. Without rElec, this will kill any lightly armored, not-crazy-robust character fairly easily.

What can we learn from this? Stop attacking orc high priests if they ever decide to summon something? Seems very contrary, seeing as how trying to blow up summoners before their summons rail on you is a good plan for every other mage, albeit slightly risky at times.

Also please don't say a long drawn out version of "git gud". You need to remember that spawns are dependent on depth because something being too difficult actually IS a problem, even with a game like crawl.

[yesno]

Stop attacking orc high priests if they ever decide to summon something?

yes, if an orc high priest summoned stuff, and you can't kill the priest before the stuff kills you, you should stop attacking. some of their summons are very dangerous and you might have to use consumables to escape if you made a mistake or got unlucky.

Seems very contrary, seeing as how trying to blow up summoners before their summons rail on you is a good plan for every other mage, albeit slightly risky at times.

you are supposed to maneuver so that the orc priest enters your LOS adjacent to you or in range of your strongest attacks. if you can't do this, disengage and avoid it until you can.

sixfirhy might be inappropriately dangerous, i don't decide these things, but if it is inappropriately dangerous for its level, then the correct answer to the situation is even more definitely "stop attacking the priest and escape", soo...

[dowan]

But you don't even see orc high priests until either the orcish mines, or depths, right?

Maybe I just haven't seen the high end of sixfirhie randomness, I know I've been a little surprised by them from time to time, but I've never found them particularly dangerous. Where did you get killed by one?

[Hurkyl]

sixfirhy might be inappropriately dangerous, i don't decide these things, but if it is inappropriately dangerous for its level, then the correct answer to the situation is even more definitely "stop attacking the priest and escape", soo...

One point of having a "Game Design Discussion" forum is to decide these things.

[CanOfWorms]

Meanwhile, an orc sorceror stares from a distance and sheds a single tear.

[ydeve]

sixfirhy might be inappropriately dangerous, i don't decide these things, but if it is inappropriately dangerous for its level, then the correct answer to the situation is even more definitely "stop attacking the priest and escape", soo...

One point of having a "Game Design Discussion" forum is to decide these things.

For non-devs to debate maybe, but no decisions are actually made here.

[PowerOfKaishin]

But you don't even see orc high priests until either the orcish mines, or depths, right?

Maybe I just haven't seen the high end of sixfirhie randomness, I know I've been a little surprised by them from time to time, but I've never found them particularly dangerous. Where did you get killed by one?

In the orcish mines. The orcish mines are very strange with respect to difficulty. Without sorcs or high priests they're easier than lair but a bunch of them can make your life hell.

[prozacelf]

But you don't even see orc high priests until either the orcish mines, or depths, right?

Maybe I just haven't seen the high end of sixfirhie randomness, I know I've been a little surprised by them from time to time, but I've never found them particularly dangerous. Where did you get killed by one?

In the orcish mines. The orcish mines are very strange with respect to difficulty. Without sorcs or high priests they're easier than lair but a bunch of them can make your life hell.

I don't know that this is in principle any different than running into an early orc band with 3 priests, which is uncommon but not vanishingly rare by any stretch. It's a pain in the but, and can feel borderline unfair, but it also feels rewarding to separate and kill them one by one. Usually the solution to both the 3 priest and the high priest summoning situations are to get back toward some stairs and/or use a consumable then reset the fight.

[Shard1697]

You should always have an escape option if you're gonna engage a dangerous summoning monster in melee.

[Tiktacy]

I just wanted to say that the problem outland in this thread makes sense in theory, as in you don't want to have monsters so "potentially" dangerous that they force the player to over extend to be safe. That is no fun, and dying because you don't want to do that feels dissapointing(more so than normal imo).

However, orc high priests ARE the uber monster of orc, kind of like greater nagas in snake pits. They make it exciting, because normal techniques like kiting don't work as effectively. They tend to break the normal routine of the game(which is a very good thing in this context), and sixfurys help contribute to that.

[yesno]

sixfirhy might be inappropriately dangerous, i don't decide these things, but if it is inappropriately dangerous for its level, then the correct answer to the situation is even more definitely "stop attacking the priest and escape", soo...

One point of having a "Game Design Discussion" forum is to decide these things.

i'm just saying that regardless of the calibration of monster summoner threat level, the correct tactic is to stop attacking the summoner and escape if its summons are going to kill you before you can kill it. the OP seems to be deriding this tactic, but demanding that the player assess the threat in this way is the only thing that justifies summoner monsters existing. if they can't summon things strong enough to force you to escape when you don't kill them fast enough, they are no danger at all.

[adozu]

i don't know, i still think orc warlords with a crossbow are worse than orc priests, you can always "reset-scum" until they don't summon 2 sun demons and a six-furby on the first turn but a bolt to the face is a bolt to the face.

[dynast]

i don't know, i still think orc warlords with a crossbow are worse than orc priests, you can always "reset-scum" until they don't summon 2 sun demons and a six-furby on the first turn but a bolt to the face is a bolt to the face.

You can make a orc warlord waste all his ammo the same way you can "reset-scum" a summoner.

[adozu]

ok but then my face is full of bolts. it's not like i never died because "surely that stone giant must be almost out of stones by now", while i don't think i ever died to a high orc priest summons unless i was really tired of my character.

[advil]

It's ridiculous how much stronger this monster is compared to anything else a high priest can throw at you.

Orc is not particularly safe any more -- high priests, warlords, and whatnot could be anywhere in orc. So given that upgrade, it doesn't really seem to me like sixfirhies are OOD in new orc. (Also, rElec was nerfed the other day, though I'm not exactly sure how or if that affects monster electric-flavored attacks, it might not.)

[Reptisaurus]

Hey, if you play any version later than .13 (or something) they can't follow you up the stairs.

Easy Peasy.

(Summons used to be NASTY, you guys. You all have no idea.)

[duvessa]

this dialogue about orc high priests and danger is a remarkably successful attempt at sidestepping the issue, but that's still what it is. the actual interesting subject here is that sixfirhies are disproportionately more dangerous than anything else the summon demon spell creates, unless you have mephitic cloud. whether this is actually a problem is debatable (the same kind of thing happens with shadow creatures etc) but it does not deserve to be deflected by 10 posts saying "git gud scrub" - you can do that on practically any GDD thread to get it moved to dungeon crawling advice, it contributes nothing

[PowerOfKaishin]

I just wanted to say that the problem outland in this thread makes sense in theory, as in you don't want to have monsters so "potentially" dangerous that they force the player to over extend to be safe. That is no fun, and dying because you don't want to do that feels dissapointing(more so than normal imo).

However, orc high priests ARE the uber monster of orc, kind of like greater nagas in snake pits. They make it exciting, because normal techniques like kiting don't work as effectively. They tend to break the normal routine of the game(which is a very good thing in this context), and sixfurys help contribute to that.

They do this with hard-to-get-rid-of smiting. They don't need ridiculously powerful summons as well.

sixfirhy might be inappropriately dangerous, i don't decide these things, but if it is inappropriately dangerous for its level, then the correct answer to the situation is even more definitely "stop attacking the priest and escape", soo...

One point of having a "Game Design Discussion" forum is to decide these things.

i'm just saying that regardless of the calibration of monster summoner threat level, the correct tactic is to stop attacking the summoner and escape if its summons are going to kill you before you can kill it. the OP seems to be deriding this tactic, but demanding that the player assess the threat in this way is the only thing that justifies summoner monsters existing. if they can't summon things strong enough to force you to escape when you don't kill them fast enough, they are no danger at all.

This isn't your average summoned monster. You can't escape sixfirhies without tele and they do much more damage than your standard fast monster. If I were to suggest that orc priests be able to summon ice giants, what would be your response to that? Because those are just as lethal if the RNG feels like it and similarly they can easily kill you from far away.

i don't know, i still think orc warlords with a crossbow are worse than orc priests, you can always "reset-scum" until they don't summon 2 sun demons and a six-furby on the first turn but a bolt to the face is a bolt to the face.

You find out whether or not the warlord has an xbow as soon as he notices you. Also it requires LoS (well, sort of) so it can be blocked slightly easier and at the end of the day he can only fire so many bolts before he's at the edge of your LoS. Summons only require the high priest to know that you are there.

[Tiktacy]

I really feel like you are over-stating the issue with SF. I won't deny they are the strongest and scariest monsters from summon minor demons, but I don't see how they are problematic aside from being unpredictable(which isn't a bad thing in this context in my opinion).

Also, orc:$'s difficulty is insanely varied each game. High priests, and by extension sixfuries and ogre mages, all play a large part in that. Although if variety in difficulty and unpredictability is not part of the developers goals for orc:$, then maybe you are right and SF should be nerfed a little(or maybe just orc high priests).

[PowerOfKaishin]

I really feel like you are over-stating the issue with SF. I won't deny they are the strongest and scariest monsters from summon minor demons, but I don't see how they are problematic aside from being unpredictable(which isn't a bad thing in this context in my opinion).

Also, orc:$'s difficulty is insanely varied each game. High priests, and by extension sixfuries and ogre mages, all play a large part in that. Although if variety in difficulty and unpredictability is not part of the developers goals for orc:$, then maybe you are right and SF should be nerfed a little(or maybe just orc high priests).

There is a limit to how ridiculous it should be with variance. It's not acceptable for poison to randomly cause instant death like it does in nethack. Otherwise every fight with an adder wound be a huge luck sacking scenario.

I suppose that's not much different than running into a D1 adder in the first place though.

[Tiktacy]

I really feel like you are over-stating the issue with SF. I won't deny they are the strongest and scariest monsters from summon minor demons, but I don't see how they are problematic aside from being unpredictable(which isn't a bad thing in this context in my opinion).

Also, orc:$'s difficulty is insanely varied each game. High priests, and by extension sixfuries and ogre mages, all play a large part in that. Although if variety in difficulty and unpredictability is not part of the developers goals for orc:$, then maybe you are right and SF should be nerfed a little(or maybe just orc high priests).

There is a limit to how ridiculous it should be with variance. It's not acceptable for poison to randomly cause instant death like it does in nethack. Otherwise every fight with an adder wound be a huge luck sacking scenario.

I suppose that's not much different than running into a D1 adder in the first place though.

Its not like orc:$ needs to be explored anyway until later. If you are really that upset about the risk, which most people aren't, then just don't explore it until you are significantly stronger. I don't think orc gives all that much more xp anyway compared to other places that are significantly less deadly. I have played lots of games where I skip orc until it poses no threat to me, its a common strategy and it sounds like something you should adopt considering you don't like the randomness to it.

Orc:$ difficulty variance is also nothing like instant death from an adder, again you are reaching except this time even further. The odds that high priests will summon a sixfurry that then kills you before you have time to make the proper preparations to kill it immediately or escape is hilariously low and I doubt it has ever happened to you(if it happened to me I would just laugh it off, its really not that late in the game to be upset about it). What HAS happened to a lot of people is that they don't handle orc priests properly and end up dying to sixfurry's because they try running away after they summon it and they end up with a couple bad rolls resulting in a quick death that was most likely avoidable.

I'm not saying what you are describing is impossible, but your argument is based on best case scenarios for sixfurries yet you ignore the other enemies whom are equally guilty and don't even bother factoring in the effects of altering your play style to play optimally(skipping orc until its easy mode for you, which you should do orc priests or no orc priests). What about ogre mages, stone giants, Saint Roka(sort of), orc sorcerers(which can paralyze you, often causing instant death), and I'm sure a few others that I can't think of right now? They may not have the same form of randomness, but all of those can kill you much easier and much more often than SF's whom are easily dispatched through the destruction of their squishy masters, yet with the same level of randomness and frustration accompanied with SF.

I'm just not seeing the argument to remove sixfurries from the summon list solidifying here. I'm sorry, I think the thread had good intentions but I'm just not seeing it.

[Shard1697]

I just wanted to say that the problem outland in this thread makes sense in theory, as in you don't want to have monsters so "potentially" dangerous that they force the player to over extend to be safe. That is no fun,

I think it's very fun, actually. It's cool to put the player in a situation where an "aggressive" choice can be a good idea, especially in a game as long and rewarding of safe play as crawl.

[prozacelf]

I just wanted to say that the problem outland in this thread makes sense in theory, as in you don't want to have monsters so "potentially" dangerous that they force the player to over extend to be safe. That is no fun,

I think it's very fun, actually. It's cool to put the player in a situation where an "aggressive" choice can be a good idea, especially in a game as long and rewarding of safe play as crawl.

This kind of gets to one of the points that a lot of discussions seem to dance around. Theoretically optimal play has the player either stand still or back up to a hallway as soon as they see a monster. I die a lot because I almost always refuse to do this, but I agree that situations where more aggressive play might actually be the preferred choice are more interesting than "don't ever engage unless it's on your terms."