The Tavern

A slowed spriggan still travels faster than a human (9 aut step vs 10), but a statue form spriggan takes 15 auts to make a move. Is this intentional or a bug?

statue form suppresses movement speed mutations, as you can see if you look on the A screen

crate wrote:statue form suppresses movement speed mutations, as you can see if you look on the A screen

That's really lame.

But wait, does that apply to Nagas too? Would that only marginally worsen their movement speed instead of increasing it by a full 50% as well?

Correct. However, it takes away their natural AC mutation too, so it's pretty bad for nagas.

duvessa wrote:Correct. However, it takes away their natural AC mutation too, so it's pretty bad for nagas.

I did a full 15 runer of a naga counting on statue form. Its good.

"able to win a 15-rune-game" and "good" are not synonymous

"I enjoy playing this way" and "this playstyle is good for winning" are also not synonymous.

ZipZipskins wrote:"able to win a 15-rune-game" and "good" are not synonymous

Well they kind of are. Helped me survive.
And on the plus side watching a statue constrict stuff is fun.

Dungeoneer wrote:
ZipZipskins wrote:"able to win a 15-rune-game" and "good" are not synonymous

Well they kind of are. Helped me survive.
And on the plus side watching a statue constrict stuff is fun.

Using a hand axe as a weapon can win a 15 rune game (especially with other non-weapon combat options) but isn't "good". Refusing to melee enemies and kill only with ranged/conj can win a 15 rune game, but it isn't "good".

And there you are, "fun" isn't the same thing as "good". It's ok to make choices that are "fun", but those choices are often not "good".

duvessa wrote:Correct. However, it takes away their natural AC mutation too, so it's pretty bad for nagas.

I always would pick 50% reduction to torment, +50% damage bonus to melee attacks, +30HP (and some other stuff) over 9 AC.

ydeve wrote:Using a hand axe as a weapon can win a 15 rune game (especially with other non-weapon combat options) but isn't "good".

Why it isn't good?

ydeve wrote:Refusing to melee enemies and kill only with ranged/conj can win a 15 rune game, but it isn't "good".

Killing stuff with only range is good. You don't have any penalties for using longbow in melee range.

Eyesburn wrote:
duvessa wrote:Correct. However, it takes away their natural AC mutation too, so it's pretty bad for nagas.
I always would pick 50% reduction to torment, +50% damage bonus to melee attacks, +30HP (and some other stuff) over 9 AC.

...Do you realize that statue form makes your actions take 50% longer? +50% melee damage only makes you break even before the effects of overkill and AC.

"50% bonus to melee" is very misleading, because it's there to make SF not actively detrimental to your non-UC melee - it's there to break even with the slowness, though it does come out as a bonus when enemies have AC.

HP and anti-torment resists are good if you don't move, but if you do move you also get tormented and attacked more. So, yeah.

Slow or not slow, moving or standing, you'll get tormented in the extended anyway sometimes. When torment hits me I don't care much about if I have 50 or 59 AC, I care if I have rN, and torment reduction just come handy

Why not learn the actually good form that makes you immune to torment without making you slow, then?

ydeve wrote:Using a hand axe as a weapon can win a 15 rune game (especially with other non-weapon combat options) but isn't "good". Refusing to melee enemies and kill only with ranged/conj can win a 15 rune game, but it isn't "good".

And there you are, "fun" isn't the same thing as "good". It's ok to make choices that are "fun", but those choices are often not "good".

Hand Axe + Warp Weapon works really well to clear crowds though. (used it as an alternate on a Spriggan) [Primary being QBlade + Warp Weapon and an Arbalest of Holy Wrath.] (Zin -> TSO -> Zin).

Sar wrote:Why not learn the actually good form that makes you immune to torment without making you slow, then?

because getting lich form is tedious, can put that exp somewhere else, can't quaff potions, have to care about not to be confused;
it is rare spell, and mostly I finish a game before I find it or even get it online to use it

Well, I guess getting lichform requires getting XP, which in turn requires playing Crawl so I guess it can be called tedious!

playing Crawl and skills/exp management is fun(thats why I like DCSS);

still it is not guaranteed that I will find lich form, and prolonging game by searching for it (when I already have other tool which is ok to do a job) and farming exp is whats tedious (at least for me)

What is "farming XP"? You get XP by playing Crawl.

Lichform Triples your AC (if you are a felid).

More seriously, Necromutation gives (rN(immune) rPois(immune) rC+, AC+6, MR+40, no Spell/Ability Hunger, at the cost of Dispel Undead Vuln and no Potions)...I think it's worth it, if you are a high int character that's going to use it abuse channeling (Sif or Staff of Energy)...or you are low on food and want to be able to cast high-level spells without wielding a staff of energy. Given the relatively high cost; it's mostly only worth it to a high Int character; AFTER a very powerful killdudes is online.

Note; I did say mostly, I had a character get it online before second rune, because...I used IOOD heavily for my first rune and I was running out of food. (Both lair branches were mostly chunkless [Swamp and Snake]; did vaults:4 and part of depths before Snake:4 (then crypt and tomb; since LOL FIRE STORM and rTorm; can't touch this mummies.)

Sar wrote:What is "farming XP"? You get XP by playing Crawl.

I've seen people hanging in the Abyss killing stuff (already have abyssal rune), when I asked why don't you exit it they said something like: "Im farming exp for the lich form"

Sar wrote:Wow.

I'll second that emotion. Especially since, generally if you're getting lichform, you'd generally want it before Abyss...so the mutators there rot you (cured by the common potion of curing); instead of mutate you (cured by the very rare potion of cure mutation).

bcadren wrote:
Sar wrote:Wow.
I'll second that emotion.

Thirding that emotion. Nostalgic to be reminded that some bad plays from years ago are still being practised today.

ydeve wrote:
Dungeoneer wrote:
ZipZipskins wrote:"able to win a 15-rune-game" and "good" are not synonymous

Well they kind of are. Helped me survive.
And on the plus side watching a statue constrict stuff is fun.

Using a hand axe as a weapon can win a 15 rune game (especially with other non-weapon combat options) but isn't "good". Refusing to melee enemies and kill only with ranged/conj can win a 15 rune game, but it isn't "good".

And there you are, "fun" isn't the same thing as "good". It's ok to make choices that are "fun", but those choices are often not "good".

Is Zin okay with Warp Weapon? It seems like it should count as a chaotic spell, since it's associated with Lucy and all.

genericpseudonym wrote:Is Zin okay with Warp Weapon? It seems like it should count as a chaotic spell, since it's associated with Lucy and all.

Zin is fine with everything that's not necromancy or transmutations...and the "evil" portion of summonings. None of the good gods have a problem with Translocations. (though you do get some piety loss from making yourself glow on purpose; but you'd have to abuse cBlink (or Haste) heavily for that).

ydeve wrote:Refusing to melee enemies and kill only with ranged/conj can win a 15 rune game, but it isn't "good".

Unless you're walking around with all the biggest dick conjurations, 80 mp wild magic and vehu. i often find myself in such a situation 8-)

Dreemurr wrote:
ydeve wrote:Refusing to melee enemies and kill only with ranged/conj can win a 15 rune game, but it isn't "good".

Unless you're walking around with all the biggest dick conjurations, 80 mp wild magic and vehu. i often find myself in such a situation

A silent spectre spawns from a hell effect right on top of you in Tartarus. It waves hello. So do the other things that came with it.

Yes yes, that's survivable without 'resorting' to melee.

well a wand of tele isn't exactly a melee weapon

Psieye wrote:
Dreemurr wrote:
ydeve wrote:Refusing to melee enemies and kill only with ranged/conj can win a 15 rune game, but it isn't "good".

Unless you're walking around with all the biggest dick conjurations, 80 mp wild magic and vehu. i often find myself in such a situation

A silent spectre spawns from a hell effect right on top of you in Tartarus. It waves hello. So do the other things that came with it.

Yes yes, that's survivable without 'resorting' to melee.

that happens quite often really, but with around ~15 evocations wand of desint. gets an ~85% chance to defeat mr on those. I know because that's how I dealt with it ha. the downside was that i couldn't help being Howled so i just cranked out glaciates for the duration.

the lengths people go to in order to try to prove melee in crawl is good compared to ranged attacks, or that it's useful in conjunction with ranged attacks for anything other than convenience (hint it isn't either one) are hilarious

everyone gets melee because ranged attacks have a flawed design that leads to a cumbersome interface. not because melee is actually good (because it isn't)
if someone can stand having 0 melee weapon skills, and does so as soon as they have a ranged attack, they are playing pretty much optimally

duvessa wrote:the lengths people go to in order to try to prove melee in crawl is good compared to ranged attacks, or that it's useful in conjunction with ranged attacks for anything other than convenience (hint it isn't either one) are hilarious

everyone gets melee because ranged attacks have a flawed design that leads to a cumbersome interface. not because melee is actually good (because it isn't)
if someone can stand having 0 melee weapon skills, and does so as soon as they have a ranged attack, they are playing pretty much optimally

No wonder De seems so easy.

And yet people think that conjurations blasters are very suboptimal play.

but Trog doesn't really work with ranged or magic

this means melee is better than both

trog is the second best god in the game for ranged combat after fedhas, and that's only because fedhas is the first best god for everything

can't use berserk with ranged though, and you don't have bros in really early game

Statue form increases slouch damage, why would you not want more damage!?

Um, because I have to worship Chei to get it?

I think he either thinks everybody ever should worship Chei, or it's a joke.

Why is it the anti-statue form people keep conveniently forgetting the huge damage boost to UC. Every statue form character I've ever played has used UC, because why the hell am I training tmut otherwise? And a statue form UC character just essentially tabs through extended, it's not even funny how much easier it makes extended. Yeah, it slows movespeed, that's why you get in melee range, then cast it.

I've never died in extended with a statue form character. I've only ever died once after getting statue form castable, and that character tried to switch from primarily earth magic conjurations to being a UC statue form character, which is really not the best idea...

I've died plenty of times in extended with non-statue form characters.

Also, necromut is good now? When did that happen?

Statue form is not a very large UC damage boost compared to other transmutations. As far as I can tell it deals significantly less damage (80% or less damage against typical monster AC) than blade hands in any circumstances (I'm testing with 0.18-a0-1314-g32d56dd, for reference, though a quick check suggests this has been true for basically forever). It might feel like it is dealing more damage because the per-hit damage is pretty good, so you press fewer buttons, but it's not actually very good for killing things since it slows you.

I've used statue form outside of UC a couple times, it's perfectly fine. If statue form is a good spell (it often is not) then it is a good spell with weapons also. edit: although, since the spell cares about spellpower instead of earth skill now, this is somewhat less true than it used to be

Even against Dispater, who has the most AC of anything outside of some player ghosts, blade hands outdamages statue form.

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For what it is worth, I have died with 100% (all one) of my statue form characters I took to extended, and very few of my non-statue form characters have died there.

Right, but with UC, you're getting more of a damage boost than just what's required to offset the 50% speed penalty, unlike what you get when not using UC with statue form. So statue form makes you do more damage per aut than not statue form when using UC. It is quite possible it feels like more of a boost than it really is due to the 50% slowing and 50% extra damage though, I admit I haven't fsimmed it to see the difference, I'm just going by feel.

Statue form certainly isn't the most damaging form, it's more defensive, but still, it packs more than enough punch to kill hell lords and what not pretty fast. Yeah, if you are going for just damage output, blade hands is better, and dragon form is probably best, but if you're fighting with tormentors, poisoners, or just lots of hard hitting monsters around, statue form usually lets you end the fight with more HP than otherwise, at least, in my experience. The tavern's reaction to people saying statue form is great in extended just doesn't match my experience at all, and I do have a bit of experience with statue form. Oh well, just another of life's mysteries. Maybe statue form causes me to play in a more mindful way than usual or something, I don't know.

The Tavern

I casted statue form on a spriggan. Why am I so slow?

I casted statue form on a spriggan. Why am I so slow?

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