Summoner Tactics

[Utis]

This isn't so much about skilling. I just wonder whether player who are proficient with summoners have some tactical wisdom to share.

The background is that I feel my tactical play involving summons is in particular need of improvement in general. Of course, I often have one or two summoning spells and I'm making use of evocers. But it's more in a brute-force way: I'm summoning at the start of a fight, then forget about them and concentrate solely on what my char is doing. I feel I could benefit a lot from paying more attention to my allies and their positioning. And for that I need a better intuition for the whole ally thingie. So, I decided to play with the Summoner start for a while. Normally, I would just grab a weapon and play as a gladiator-with-support. But that kind of defeats the purpose of the exercise, so I want to play as summoning-centric as it is still sensible.

Currently I feel like a beginner again. My intuition for early D isn't working as usual, because threat assessment relates to my summonings rather than my char. I think I can get to Lair somewhat reliably if I pay attention, but I have to pay more attention than usual. I suppose that's normal at this point, though.

So, what I'm doing is this: From D2 on I use the best weapon I can find and melee everything that can't hurt me (much) with weapon skill 0. Everything else I try to get into 1-on-1 situations in a terrain where it can get surrounded and then I go all out on my MP bar, starting with the strongest summons that I can reliably cast. That seems to work o.k., but I wonder if there's a more sophisticated approach that involves better positioning.

That's vague, I know. I also have a couple more specific questions:

• Do people still bother with Mammals after D1? It seems that fights where I continue casting Summon Small Mammals after I have my ice beasts and imps already go somewhat faster. But that might be an illusion. I suppose, in theory, mammals might take hits away from my better allies. But since they seem to get one-shotted almost always at some point and casting takes one turn, I'm not sure it works that way. However: If it does, would it be best then, to alternate between weaker and stronger summons while casting?
  
• I know that I can either command my allies to attack, or I can do it indirectly by throwing/firing something. But do allies that are already engaged against a particular foe drop what they're doing immediately and attack a new target?
  
• If I make my existing allies attack a foe and then summon new ones, do the late arrivals immediately attack the same target as the others?
  
• Do people use the follow and retreat commands? If so, when and how do you use "retreat" for maximum gain & profit?
  
• Some summonings have a long duration. Is it worth it to always explore with some allies in one's trail? Or, let me rephrase that: Is the benefit large enough to justify the hastle?
  
• Sometimes a foe is 'sticky' and attacks my char rather than my summons. Sometimes switching places with my allies helps, sometimes not. Does stealth help with foes getting distracted by allies? If so, is it worth it? Or is there a positioning trick other than "switch places with an ally behind you and hope for the best?"
  
• AFAIK, allies do not normally attack when out of sight. Does this relate to the ally or to the oppenent? I.e. is it enough to keep the target in LoS? In that case, do allies out of LoS heed the a command to attack such a foe in LoS? Sometimes you get a message that something is attacking an ally from out of LoS, does the ally retaliate then or not?
  
• Do people pay attention to the number they already have summoned from a particular type? Sometimes it's difficult to keep track, especially with imps.
  
• Just going all out with summoning a small army is sure effective, but not very efficient. Do people with more Su experience have some rule of thumb as to what and how much they summon? It's probably all experience and intuition, but I thought I'd ask.

I think I read here that gammafunk had a stream that showcases early summoner play. But I couldn't find it. A recommendation for a ttyrec or foo.tv would also be welcome. Unfortunately discussions of tactical positions with ascii art aren't that common in the tavern ... but I would appreciate it.


EDIT: Forgot some questions.

[archaeo]

Here's gammafunk's twitch channel.

The answers to your specific questions, of which there are most definitely more than "a couple":

• You should cast basically all of your summons, up to the cap, for any non-trivial encounter. Don't get rid of spammals until you've got something better to memorize; I usually end up never casting it again after I have imps and canine up, but it can be good to get some blockers in.
• If you tell everybody to attack someone, they will, with probably a bunch of exceptions like haunt's behavior. Just use t a when you really want something dead, and otherwise don't bother.
• Bros pick an enemy to attack when they're summoned.
• Summons will automatically follow you if they don't have an enemy. I've never understood what "wait" is useful for. "Retreat" is good if you want to get your summons to walk ahead of you or if you want to reposition them in front of a corridor or whatever, but it's rarely necessary when you could just summon more dudes.
• It's Hypothetically Optimal to always have some summons out, but it's a pain and I recommend not doing it.
• I assume that's how stealth works? I doubt it's really all that worth it, and getting distraction stabs isn't the best way to use summons imo. The better positioning trick is to not be next to enemies and use polearms.
• I'm pretty sure summoned allies won't fight enemies you can't see, and allies you can't see don't attack. If I'm mistaken, I'd sure like to know too.
• You should have a good handle on your summon cap, because you could waste mp recasting a summon when you're already at the cap. Alternately, you can recast to get a fresh summon, which is the best way to cure your canine's poison or your guardian golem's inner flame.
• If you're a summoner, I'd stop worrying too much about efficiency. Worship Sif and summon all the dudes and then channel so you can summon all the dudes the next time you need them. Pretty easy!!

[crate]

A note on summon targeting: if summons are following you (tf OR when there are no monsters in los after using ta), they will not acquire a new target until you either: tell them to do so, tell them to wait (this is usually better than ta imo), attack something, or get attacked by something. Note that summons are summoned as if you used ta on ... I think the nearest monster? Not sure, but it's the same behaviour as ta on some monster. (Note to Fedhas worshippers: this is why your oklobs aren't behaving as you expect; you need to use tw on them. Yes, it is really dumb.)

I almost never use ta, since tw is better for stopping monsters from reaching you, and in my opinion that's more useful anyway than targeting a specific enemy. It's also slightly better since they will re-acquire targets if you do something like step back to make an enemy leave los for 1 turn, whereas ta is inconsistent at best. You usually don't need to use either ta or tw unless summons lose all their targets, which mainly happens if you walk around with summons up with no enemies around. Retreat is mainly for permanent allies, though it probably has some uses for summons (I'm too lazy to care).

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Stealth only indirectly helps you get this kind of distraction stab. I don't think it makes enemies become distracted more easily, though it (very slightly, you should not actually train it for this reason) improves the chance you will successfully perform a distraction stab (0.5% increase per level of stealth skill). It is good for making things lose track of you if you get them out of los.

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Nothing in crawl will perform any action except moving (or shouting? I don't know how shouting works, and it's also not really an action since it can e.g. happen between two bounces of lightning bolt), unless that thing can see an enemy, except that slime creatures will merge back together. Additionally, summons that actually count as summons (i.e. it says "summoned" when you x over them) will not attack anything that is not in the player's LOS (it obviously has to be in the summon's LOS as well from the previous sentence). There are a few things that aren't actually summons like sticks to snakes and malign gateway; these will freely attack things outside the player's LOS. All summons in your LOS will obey whatever commands you give them, so if you use ta on something outside of the summon's LOS it will head over in that direction.

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If you want to win you should definitely walk around with a canine from ccf with you, at least until they stop being very useful. Saves mp and time and if you get a higher-tier summon you can keep it instead of possibly getting a hound, and the duration is enormous. There are a few other summons that you can use like that (summon demon for one) but it's annoying so I never bother.

[edgefigaro]

Set up lightning spires to create choke points where the lighting can bounce. It is really strong. It also makes my head hurt. +1 if you can use ice beasts/k9 to create the choke for you.

Always keep an imp up once you get imp. Always keep a canine up once you get canine. Reset if you miscast canine.

[Utis]

Thank you all! (I miss the thank button.)

I find it quite curious how my retreat behaviour and what I consider favourable/unfavourable terrain is reversed for summoners. Unless I meet a centaur, in which case things are back to normal again.

It seems to me that if I direct my summons to attack foe #1 by attacking it myself (e.g. with a ranged weapon), then they continue to attack the same one, even if I attack foe #2 myself afterwards. I hope that this observation is correct. It was relevant once when I wanted my summons to destroy a hungry ghost (blocking my line of fire in the process) while I was using a freezing weapon to get rid of an imp behind the lines.

Set up lightning spires to create choke points where the lighting can bounce. It is really strong. It also makes my head hurt. +1 if you can use ice beasts/k9 to create the choke for you.

Is the latter thing something that 'just happens' once in a while or is this a 'summoners tactical trick' that you can influence? So far, I went the ice beasts route exclusively. I know most bouncing patterns instinctively, but wasn't looking forward to lightening spires being rendered ineffective because my other summons are getting into its firing path.

[Sprucery]

Thanks crate, I learned something new!

[gammafunk]

I disagree re. tw over ta; I prefer ta because it helps me better predict where my summons will be relative to myself and the monster in the next few turns. I only use a t command in general when I feel the cost of making noise is worth having my summons move in a specific, relatively predictable way. This tends to be when I want them to move towards a specific monster or towards myself. If I can, I avoid making noise by throwing stones (or other throwables) at a monster or just by hitting it with a weapon (early on this can be 0-skill weapon, and polearms are nice for this due to reach). For the latter, the tf command is very helpful. If you see a monster in a corridor and your summons are such that only one can attack it, it's often good to issue tf to get them to move away from the monster, allowing it to move forward to a doorway or corner, where you can then direct your summons to attack it so that 2-3 summons are hitting it at once instead of one. Issuing two t commands does make additional noise, but again this can make the difference between getting effective use out of a summon versus not.

The choice of ta versus tw often is not terribly important, even if you accept my view that ta is more optimal, since allies give you tremendous leeway for surviving and/or escaping dangerous fights as it is. It's worth keeping in mind that you can use even just one weak summon to help you run from a dangerous monster, either swapping with it to make a space or moving away as it distracts the monster with a hit. Fast summons like bats and hounds can be particularly good for this.

[crate]

Part of the reason I prefer tw is it is very hard to replicate the tw behaviour with quiet actions (which, yes, are better than shouting), because the point of it is using summons to block multiple monsters from reaching you. ta is less good at this.

[njvack]

"Retreat" is good if you want to get your summons to walk ahead of you

So "retreat" with summons is best for "do the opposite of retreating."

I guess I should have realized that, but my mind is still blown...

[edgefigaro]

edgefigaro wrote:
Set up lightning spires to create choke points where the lighting can bounce. It is really strong. It also makes my head hurt. +1 if you can use ice beasts/k9 to create the choke for you.


Is the latter thing something that 'just happens' once in a while or is this a 'summoners tactical trick' that you can influence? So far, I went the ice beasts route exclusively. I know most bouncing patterns instinctively, but wasn't looking forward to lightening spires being rendered ineffective because my other summons are getting into its firing path.

This is really quite easy to do in the snakey polar bear ice cave with a frost giant at the end. It is usually achievable nearly anywhere that isn't a giant open space (one floor in spider comes to mind.) A corner to drag creatures around and a wall is all you need.

It will often break down after a few turns, but if your lightning spire gets two-three double zaps on a death yak pack, that is a huge win.

Axe wielding enemies will ruin your plans.

It takes a good deal of experience to understand how your summons and move as well as a lot of practice placing the spire. It is playing the AE shock bounce game using an unreliable 3rd party summon. It is really strong. It is also really irritating. Thus, the comment about making my head hurt.

[archaeo]

It seems to me that if I direct my summons to attack foe #1 by attacking it myself (e.g. with a ranged weapon), then they continue to attack the same one, even if I attack foe #2 myself afterwards. I hope that this observation is correct. It was relevant once when I wanted my summons to destroy a hungry ghost (blocking my line of fire in the process) while I was using a freezing weapon to get rid of an imp behind the lines.

I'm not totally sure about the foe #1 vs. foe #2 thing.

Set up lightning spires to create choke points where the lighting can bounce. It is really strong. It also makes my head hurt. +1 if you can use ice beasts/k9 to create the choke for you.

Is the latter thing something that 'just happens' once in a while or is this a 'summoners tactical trick' that you can influence? So far, I went the ice beasts route exclusively. I know most bouncing patterns instinctively, but wasn't looking forward to lightening spires being rendered ineffective because my other summons are getting into its firing path.

It can be influenced, probably, but requires exactly the same kind of terrain a summoner usually doesn't like; you'd rather have some space for your summons to swarm the enemy instead of being cramped against a choke point.

Plus, it's lightning spire, a super good spell that really doesn't require anything other than setting it up someplace out of the way so your other summons can attack. The "ice beasts route exclusively" plan isn't great, since spire is a very strong spell and while setting up double bounces is usually just futile, moving around a bit to put it someplace effective is pretty easy. Ideally, you sit behind a wall of ice beasts while the spire tears apart the enemy. It remains good for a big part of the midgame, but by then you'll probably have other summons to memorize.

[Sar]

I find spire to be really strong even without setting double-zaps. Just let it blast enemies, maybe stand near and tank some hits. Also really good in corridors.

[archaeo]

Yeah, I had a Swamp:5 with a decently long corridor off of the rune vault, and spire basically mowed through the entirety of the (TLHless) vault. It's also the only targetable summon, which gives it some utility as a blocker that really comes in handy.

[edgefigaro]

Its not exactly that spire isn't powerful. It is crazy powerful.









You get a lot of mileage from moving summons around.

Step 1: Create a spot where the spire double zaps something.
Step 2: Summon spire, bait self to hold the enemy in place. (Spire is double zapping)
Step 3: Cast more summons.
Step 4: Trade places with a summon.

Edit: Update Lair 1 8 headed hydra encounter



I Lure it to a nearby double bounce spot.



I cast canine and ice beast, The hydra eats the canine. This is the result



I step into the hydra. I am at full health (77) and can take a hit. This advances my ice beasts.



Hydra splits its damage between me and the spire. I take ~15 damage. Now I trade places with an ice beast.



Hydra attacks again, killing my spire, but my ice beasts finish it off.

Spire had 2 single shots and 2 double shots at the hydra over the course of this fight.

[Sar]

you can also kill a hydra by just summoning 3 ice beasts and moving in a way so they don't attack the hydra 1 by 1

[edgefigaro]

you can also kill a hydra by just summoning 3 ice beasts and moving in a way so they don't attack the hydra 1 by 1

Granted. Summoners are strong, as are ice beasts.

I'm just trying to say double zapping spires is really strong, and what I am hearing back is double zapping spires don't matter because single zapping spires are strong too. Or double zapping spires don't matter because corridors, which is also really strong. Or double zapping spires don't matter because ice beasts are strong. I don't understand the argument.

Get as much utility out of the starting book as possible.

[njvack]

I look at those and say "spire double-zaps look really tedious to set up."

[Sar]

the joke is that you don't really need to play effectively because you're a Summoner

[Utis]

FWIW, I think with regard to 'tedium' setting Spires up for double zaps the way edgefigaro described is just like double zaps with shock: After doing it for a while, it doesn't require thinking anymore, I do it instinctively and it's no more tedious than, say, meleeing something.

[JFunk]

Retreat can also be useful for mobbing enemies. For example, if your summons have gone after a monster in this kind of situation:

X = enemy
S = Summon

  Code:

@.SS###
...SSX.
...S###


This configuration favors the monster, and if it's a tough monster and you leave your summons to their own devices, the monster will kill the summon at the mouth of the corridor, and another one will step in to take its place, getting killed, etc.

You can set up a more favorable configuration by ordering a retreat by a space or two so the monster has room to advance. Then once it's in a more exposed position, you order an attack, with a configuration like below:

  Code:

@.SS###
..SSX..
...S###


Or even better:

  Code:

@.SS###
..SX...
..SS###


That sort of exemplifies a broader point, which is that summoners (and ally-reliant characters generally) have a very different relationship with terrain than most characters. A melee character could spend the entire game in a corridor if that were an option. A conjurer can, too, although they are a bit more forgiving of open spaces once they have AoEs online. With summoners the tables are turned. Now you are the one to be scared of in wide-open spaces, and you should take advantage of them when you can. However, open spaces still have all the same dangers -- too many monsters showing up unexpectedly, etc. To me, that's a big part of what makes summoners fun.

[Zargon]

I've never understood what "wait" is useful for

I tend to find wait works well with Recall. Say you want to try to take on a threat by yourself (so that you get all the xp), then realise that things aren't going your way, you can recall in your backup and let them do the dirty work while you skidaddle.

[Speleothing]

Hate to necro this, but I've been splatting a pile of Tengu, HO, & DE summoners lately with the goal of winning one before the end of the year. What gods are best for xxSu now? the Sif change is a big nerf to the sit-back-and-wait playstyle. Also, there are the two new gods to consider, seems like Hep provides that permanent canine some people advocate.

[edgefigaro]

VpSu is my favorite summoner, by far.

[Sprucery]

What gods are best for xxSu now?

I have no experience on the new Sif or Hep, but of the older gods for example Fedhas, Gozag, Kiku and Ru should be good.

[Deso]

The most tactical spell/useful from the summoner start book is lightning spire by far. You must set it in a way your other summons won't get in it's line of fire. A good tactic is place it in one direction and move toward the other.
Worst case it can tank some hits - I rather set it for extra hits while enemies approach.

I also love the guardian golem explosion damage (I once died to it due rF-)

Well at the start while you mana is low you should grab a polearm - being able to hide behind a summon and attack for no mana is invaluable. (in fact it might be worth investing in it if you are a tengu or merfolk - Ashenzari's Skill boost being a reasonable option for those races)

"tw" is good to avoid giving free hits or controlling a choke point case in point (my ascii is a bit rusty)

  Code:

##.##
##@##
..SSS..
.......
XXX.X

The reworked Sif muna is still very useful with the much needed amnesia ability - the first ability is quite useful at first too - the extra spire or ice fiend is invaluable early.
The new channel energy should help wining harder battles if you cast it early enough i.e. after one or two spells. It also allows you to retreat and recharge which is invaluable.

[jalala]

When all fails try summoner of chei. Once came up with crazy idea of vssu^chei(summon, hit, mana restore, summon).
Positioning doesn't matter because if you move one step, either all the baddies are bad or you and your buddies will be dead.
Mine went surprisingly far, died in pandemonium because i forgot i was worhipping chei..