Horrible Mismatches

[Sometimes]

I've noticed a fair few people are prepared to hammer Trolls into spellcasters, but there are a lot of builds that should just never ever be attempted. From the doggedly persistent mummy berserker, to the Medicine Troll- some combos are plain horrible, whether through mechanics or background.
Tell me about the least likely character combos you've ever played. Any surprising successes? Horrible, unsurprising deaths?

[Kate]

I managed to splat almost all of the last tournament's Nemelex choices, which I thought was quite an achievement. HaTm, SEAs and GhFE all died horribly, and after that I didn't even try NaPr or MDEn. The GhFE of Kiku died to ancient lich paralysis on Zot:5, which was pretty stylish I guess.

I did just win a CePr of Zin, which was a horrible exercise in starvation, had loads difficulty in Lair and was generally hateful and useless. Eventually I ninjaed V:8 (after reciting to the vault guards of course), dived through Zot without fighting anything and teleapported the orb with Sanctuary, almost the only thing Zin was useful for all game other than pacifying orcs.

[goo]

I'm pretty sure Cheibriados with a Spriggan or Felid is pretty awful.

[mageykun]

I once had a NaWa of Sif who surprised me by making his way halfway through the lair. Never technically died either- he got left behind when I moved from .5 to .6, and I never had the heart to go back and kill him.

[tormodpwns]

Strangely, there are still two unwon combos (not counting combos of races that no longer exist). They are SEMo and MuAs. Mummies in general suck so that's somewhat understandable, but Sludge Elves are great at unarmed combat so that puzzles me.

[Zicher]

Strangely, there are still two unwon combos. They are SEMo and MuAs.

From ##crawl:

[10:17] <Zicher> !lg * won semo
[10:17] <Sequell> 2. Nosferax the Grand Master (L27 SEMo), worshipper of Okawaru, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2010-08-07, with 1398284 points after 108796 turns and 6:57:47.

[10:18] <Zicher> !lg * won muas
[10:18] <Sequell> 1. xyblor the Warrior (L23 MuAs), worshipper of Makhleb, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2009-10-09, with 1500526 points after 72175 turns and 6:21:45.

If I recall correctly, all playable combos were already won online (in various DCSS versions), except some Felid combos, which are rather new to the game anyway.

[casmith789]

Strangely, there are still two unwon combos. They are SEMo and MuAs.

From ##crawl:

[10:17] <Zicher> !lg * won semo
[10:17] <Sequell> 2. Nosferax the Grand Master (L27 SEMo), worshipper of Okawaru, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2010-08-07, with 1398284 points after 108796 turns and 6:57:47.

[10:18] <Zicher> !lg * won muas
[10:18] <Sequell> 1. xyblor the Warrior (L23 MuAs), worshipper of Makhleb, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2009-10-09, with 1500526 points after 72175 turns and 6:21:45.

If I recall correctly, all playable combos were already won online (in various DCSS versions), except some Felid combos, which are rather new to the game anyway.

Yup, correct. All species combinations have been won except certain felids. On ##crawl we are doing an "oldwon" which is combos not won online in v>=0.5: DEPa DrSu DrWn FeAs FeEn FeHe FeNe FePa FePr GhBe GhTm GhWr HEHe HEWn HOEn HOTm HOVM HOWr HOWz HuAs HuHe MDAE MDAs MDIE MDVM MfAE MfHe MfPa MfSu MfWr MiAs MiEn MiHu MiNe MiSu NaCK NaCr NaMo SEPr SpCj TrCj TrGl TrWz

Some of these are completely fine as combos, others not so much. Ones that really don't work well are MuMo, DEPr, MDEn (before .8), SEAM. Basically base a class off apts it isn't good at at all

[GameKnut]

Recently, I had a fairly successful OgSt (the trunk Stalker, to be precise). It's actually pretty nice if you ignore the stealth part, with a +2 club, a cloak, Fulsome Distillation, and Evaporate. The skills are alright, too.

I was pretty lucky in the early game, to be fair. I snagged a whip of pain from Pikel, a flail of holy wrath from Edmund, and a mace of protection off the floor, so I had a weapon for every occasion. I also found an altar to Kikubaaqudgha before the temple, an obvious choice considering the whip.

Sadly, my luck ran out when on Lair:3, Rupert gave me a run for my money. I teleported away successfully, only to die to a black mamba a few turns later. And I'd poisoned Rupert pretty severely, too. Alas...

[jackalKnight]

Spriggan berserker. Watch they fey folk go SPLAT when Ogre enemies first show up.

[ryak]

Ghoul transmuter. You'd think there would be some synergy there, but it doesn't really work.

[Zicher]

Spriggan berserker. Watch they fey folk go SPLAT when Ogre enemies first show up.

Not true. But the time you meet ogres you're bound to have enough HP to survive at least one hit, and with their clumsiness and spriggan's EV, they hardly hit you at all.
And, you can kill ogres with two or three hits when zerking.
Another advantage: Trog's gifts given really quickly (ever received a +5,+8 Qblade on D:6, or any gift at all on D:3?).
For more good news, add Brothers in Arms. Say, two zerking stone giants can literally tear apart anything in bottom Snake, Swamp and Shoals, as well as the vault guard cluster on Vaults:8.
And on top of that, add stabbing, and you have a pretty viable combo at least for a standard three-runer.

[Sometimes]

Another advantage: Trog's gifts given really quickly

Didn't cross my mind just how fast a herbivore would crank up piety with Trog. Going to give this a shot.

[Zicher]

Another advantage: Trog's gifts given really quickly

Didn't cross my mind just how fast a herbivore would crank up piety with Trog. Going to give this a shot.

Go for it. In my current game I received first gift on D:5, and a Qblade as a second gift on D:6. Orc and Lair were an absolute breeze, I didn't have to zerk even against hydrae and death yaks (I was very careful fo fight them one by one). Now with rPois, I guess I'll have an easy time in Swamp ....

[Zicher]

One more thing you may want to know: Amulet of Guardian Spirit is SpBe's friend, effectively boosting it's HP by something like 25-30% in the midgame. Under Trog, you're unlikely to ever use any MP anyway.

[danr]

You do need some MP for Trog's abilities, but as an SP you can usually run away enough to recover the few MP needed for that, or you just make sure to use the ability before your MP is depleted. This is good practice anyway because you really should be using them to stay out of trouble, not to get out of trouble.

I'm starting to feel like Trog is cheap though.

[mageykun]

After reading this last night, I went and rolled myself a SpBe. It does work surprisingly well, I'm already to Hive. Since you don't have any spells draining hunger, you pretty much only have to eat after you 'zerk, which gets saved for emergencies. Piety flies up- the only problem is building up enough skill in short swords before Trog starts gifting. The first few gifts were all over the place- got a broad axe, artifact xbow of penetration, and sling of fire before I got my venom sabre. And I just got an artifact 2 handed axe. Not complaining though- I absolutely murdered a wide open bailey filled with orcs with that xbow.

[Zicher]

You do need some MP for Trog's abilities ...

You don't. Food and piety are the only costs with Trog. Also, Trog does not use invocations.

[danr]

Man, I've gotta start checking my facts! Sorry...

[tormodpwns]

Ghoul transmuter. You'd think there would be some synergy there, but it doesn't really work.

Nope actually I see what you mean by Unarmed Combat synergy, but ghouls can't use bodily transformations so essentially all they get from the book is Distillation+Evaporate, and Sticks to Snakes.

What's fun (and not recommended by the game) are Troll hybrids, like TrCr and TrTr. Just focus on Unarmed Combat like your average berserker/monk and only after your combat is stable and powerful enough do you start victory dancing your spells. Combine that with stuff like Berserker Rage and Ice Form and you got a real beast.

[omndra]

Ghoul transmuter. You'd think there would be some synergy there, but it doesn't really work.

Nope actually I see what you mean by Unarmed Combat synergy, but ghouls can't use bodily transformations so essentially all they get from the book is Distillation+Evaporate, and Sticks to Snakes.

What's fun (and not recommended by the game) are Troll hybrids, like TrCr and TrTr. Just focus on Unarmed Combat like your average berserker/monk and only after your combat is stable and powerful enough do you start victory dancing your spells. Combine that with stuff like Berserker Rage and Ice Form and you got a real beast.

Lol I've gotta try that some time.

But i can't believe that No one has mentioned the Ogre Wanderer
Its Winable... but thats because ANY/ALL Combos are winnable
Out of all of the Combos this is the most difficult one to play

[midknight129]

I tried the Spriggan Berserker thing. Took 4 tries before I broke that initial luck hurdle and got a good start rolling. Got a +8/+8 quick blade as my first gift on D:5. Made my way down to about D:15 or so, got a few nice things along the way including a +6/+5 artifact demon blade with vampirism among other bonuses, etc, etc. Cleared the Hive, Orc Mines, and Lair (minus advanced branches) and was going through the Vault. I was downright plowing through everything, ogres and orc hordes begged for mercy as my little Spriggan sent ichor flying and licked it off his blade. Ettins, 2 Headed Ogres, Giants, Cyclops, Trolls, Centaur Warriors, you name it, I was diving into them without even having to rely on berserk unless there were 4+ and no corridor to use. On about Vault:3, I came across some Slimes. Now I had already cleared an 8x8 Jiyva vault with various ooze, amoeba, and other forms of snot and mucous, so I didn't feel some slimes would be any trouble. I started to Kleenex them one by one when they started merging. I had fought them merged up to stage 4 no problem, but these guys merged to stage 5. I didn't consider it an issue; I had 98 HP, some AC bonuses, an +2 robe, and crazy dodge. So I'm hacking at it for a few rounds and get it down to about half it's life. Then, all of a sudden, out of nowhere, BOOM! You Died...
.
.
.
ffffffffffffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu!!!!!!!!!!! WTF just happened!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

My obit said I died with 0/98 HP, meaning he decided to hit me from full life to zero with no overkill. For all the giants and such that I slaughtered indiscriminately, it was a freaking snotball that did me in!?

[Zicher]

My obit said I died with 0/98 HP, meaning he decided to hit me from full life to zero with no overkill. For all the giants and such that I slaughtered indiscriminately, it was a freaking snotball that did me in!?

A titanic slime creature (made of five standard slimes) can deal up to 110 damage. You don't want to fight these bastards in a corridor.
(I learned the hard way, being the first online to die to a titanic. 77 damage in my case can give you a true lesson).

[joellercoaster]

Yeah, this one seems to kill each Crawl player exactly once (my own rite of slime passage (no pun intended) was fairly recent). Big slimes are scary, but hey, at least they can be coaxed into separating again eventually! Once you know to respect the snotballs, they're a good source of XP

[mageykun]

I once tried a few vampire berserkers. I thought it would be an interesting combination- with Trog gifts you could theoretically get a vampiric blade very early, and with that and Trog's hand for healing you could go undead ASAP for the stealth and resistance boosts.

In practice, it doesn't seem to work so well. Vamps are incredibly fragile, and the 'zerker start seems to put everything in the wrong place for them. I never got one even halfway to the temple.

DDBe's are probably a better choice to abuse Trog for healing, but it's been done. :p

[XuaXua]

Yeah, this one seems to kill each Crawl player exactly once (my own rite of slime passage (no pun intended) was fairly recent). Big slimes are scary, but hey, at least they can be coaxed into separating again eventually! Once you know to respect the snotballs, they're a good source of XP

How do you keep them from splitting up though? I get a good big one and hit it and am about to kill when... divide.

[Zicher]

Yeah, this one seems to kill each Crawl player exactly once (my own rite of slime passage (no pun intended) was fairly recent). Big slimes are scary, but hey, at least they can be coaxed into separating again eventually! Once you know to respect the snotballs, they're a good source of XP

How do you keep them from splitting up though? I get a good big one and hit it and am about to kill when... divide.

They split when there's open room around you. Lead them to a chokepoint or a corridor.
But take warning - five 22-damage attacks are far less of a threat than a single 110-damage attack.

[joellercoaster]

Right. And it's certainly more dangerous!

[XuaXua]

Uh...why do you want to keep them from splitting up? Killing a titanic slime creature actually gives you less experience than killing five normal ones, according to the Gretell knowledge bot.

Had no idea. The large dump of XP seemed a lot larger than several small dumps. Sort of like how when you win the lottery you are supposed to take the cash instead of pay-outs.

[smock]

Uh...why do you want to keep them from splitting up? Killing a titanic slime creature actually gives you less experience than killing five normal ones, according to the Gretell knowledge bot.

Had no idea. The large dump of XP seemed a lot larger than several small dumps. Sort of like how when you win the lottery you are supposed to take the cash instead of pay-outs.

Shouldn't it be the opposite? To encourage players to take the risk of fighting a titanic? (And should titanic slime creatures shoot electricity?)

[XuaXua]

Uh...why do you want to keep them from splitting up? Killing a titanic slime creature actually gives you less experience than killing five normal ones, according to the Gretell knowledge bot.

Had no idea. The large dump of XP seemed a lot larger than several small dumps. Sort of like how when you win the lottery you are supposed to take the cash instead of pay-outs.

Shouldn't it be the opposite? To encourage players to take the risk of fighting a titanic?

That's what I'd have thought, with a bit more health or damage when combined rather than equal health and damage. There needs to be an advantage to doing it other than health re-distribution on separation.

[KoboldLord]

You aren't supposed to be encouraged to fight the titanic slime creature. It's there to force you to fight them away from corridors. They are part of a series of changes meant to make it less overwhelmingly optimal to lure every last monster on the level to a corridor where it can be safely killed without worrying about other monsters.

[Grimm]

I enjoy encountering them for that very reason, being forced to think a bit more carefully about tactical movement.

[sigfried von murdock]

You aren't supposed to be encouraged to fight the titanic slime creature. It's there to force you to fight them away from corridors. They are part of a series of changes meant to make it less overwhelmingly optimal to lure every last monster on the level to a corridor where it can be safely killed without worrying about other monsters.

I would say it should be give and take. Yes a titanic slime has the strength of 4-5 slimes, but you also have all your slimes in one bucket. And since slimes seem to regenerate at more than modest rate for their HP, sometimes there is an advantage to keeping your slimes together.

Still a tsunami of green spittle can wipe a character very quickly, so it does discourage people, but there is an advantage that can be used.

Naga Zerker seems like an awful idea to me.

[Stormfox]

Going slightly OT here, but if varkarrus went up against a titanic slime creature, would that be "Hamster Huey and the Gooey Kablooie", for fans of Calvin and Hobbes?

Back on topic, any mechanism that breaks up the standard "fight from a choke point" tactic is a good one. Slime creatures on Swamp:5 with the dragon rune vault is particularly "fun", as I tend to want to drill a hole in one of the walls and take out the dragons and hydrae from there.

[Whart]

I tried a troll healer today. It wasn't pretty.

[Whart]

That's awesome, Minmay. Is it OK if I just express that I had some trouble with it?

[Jeremiah]

Deep Elf Healer seems pretty impossible to survive the first level; you have basically no way to kill anything, combined with a DE's lousy HP and Elyvilon's ability to pacify, which is almost guaranteed to fail.

[pratamawirya]

Deep Elf Berserker is awful....

[Stormfox]

I'm in a weird mood today, so for my next game I'll start a FeHe. The pacification ability will be justified as "awwwwww, lookit da cyoot kitteh", which is why it works on humanoids, but eldritch abominations and undead wouldn't care. I'll let you all know how it pans out...

[Stormfox]

Sorry for the double post (if you can call it that, it's been almost 24 hours). FeHe isn't a horrible mismatch. The biggest hurdle to overcome in the beginning is the lack of Unarmed Combat. But there's plenty to eat to fuel Ely's abilities and you can sac every single weapon you find, so your piety builds fast and stays high. (Once I realized that at some point Ely's weapon sacrifice got moved to 'p'ray like all the other sacrifices, that is...)

In my best attempt, I took down a gnoll fort by pacifying half of its occupants and letting them fight amongst themselves...I had to kill fewer than ten gnolls and jackals myself. Getting to the point where orc priests, wizards, and warriors were susceptible to pacification was the turning point. Priests are the worst when you don't have ranged attacks.

Ultimately I didn't last incredibly long, but that's mainly because I don't play Healers well yet. But that can be worked on.