The first level of the dungeon is too chance dependent.

[PowerOfKaishin]

For the first few floors it blows to be a pure caster that doesn't specialize in blowing stuff up right off the bat. FE, basically, since even conjurer is just stuck with magic dart at level 1. But the very first floor is absolutely the worst. Around half of my deaths are here and it has basically just become a game of "hope I don't get unlucky and not run into the dreaded jackal pack". Maybe I'm just bad at this game, but when I walk into the dungeon and subsequently run, walk, slither, crawl, whathaveyou down a corridor and I see a hobgoblin with a club and I zap it with 6 magic darts, 1 of which miscasts and the other 5 of them hit it for 0 damage, I'm not entirely sure what I should do. The only valid strategy for most characters is to kite it around a corner until they gain the MP to cast another magic dart. This in itself is a problem, because it's tedious which you may note as being against the game's philosophy. In the case of Nagas, they are just completely boned, which is coincidentally the race I am having this problem with. Somebody tell me how I activate the secret Elbereth cheat code, because I really need it.

And I have a 15-rune despite being somewhat inept at this game, so I think I at least have some semblance of what I'm talking about. Of course my 15-rune is with SpEn who oh-so-conveniently don't have this problem since literally nothing in the first few floor moves faster than them, so maybe not. Maybe I should just stick to Spriggans all day every day?

Disregarding anyone who answered yes to that last question and didn't see a problem with that answer, let's continue. It's one thing when you're in the bottom of Cocytus and shit has gone to hell (quite literally) and the mystical force spawns 3 shrikes, or when you're in jelly:6 and TRJ has woken up because you got a shitty stealth roll at THE worst possible time. That's just part of the game, learning to deal with the situation. You can do this by using scrolls, quaffing potions, casting game-breakers from the Necronomicon, simply playing intelligently with a backup plan, avoiding the situation in the first place with proper preparation and rHubris, or any other valid strategy that is simply not available to a character on the first floor. It is absolutely ridiculous to hear people claim that every game is ascendable when you can randomly run into an adder right out the game and just straight up die. Maybe every game where the player is able to fully explore (or almost fully explore) the first two floors is ascendable, but not every literal game. It's just not possible because the player spawns without the ability to have contingency plans and when they walk down a hallway and every enemy on the floor seems to know their location because they didn't pick a stealthy class and get rocked, some people may be inclined to suggest that it's their fault, when it is most certainly not.

The game's philosophy also includes skill being a real factor, but that's simply not true for the first dungeon floor. There's no stair dancing, no running away, no scrolls and no potions (other than MAYBE some unidentified ones, which is not an acceptable outcome from a game-design standpoint regardless of whether or not you have them), and if you play a mage-class, no weapons and no weapon training. The only thing keeping 10 speed races with mage classes alive at this point is kiting until they get the necessary MP to keep going. That's not even an option if you run into the jackal pack or an adder. And don't say "well you should just play a warper or a berserker". That's just a work around. Every class-race combination (or almost every race-class combination) should be viable.

Maybe I'm just stupid for not playing nothing but Spriggans, but the first floor should be made significantly easier. Leave all that shit in the second floor, when the player at least has stair-dancing and the ability to lucksack with potions and scrolls to add to the equation. Adders and Jackals (and possibly Hobgoblins with clubs, who two-shot with a couple lucky hits) should never appear on the first floor. At least this way the damage is minimized so that the only race that gets screwed are the Nagas. It's not the best solution but it's the best one I can come up with for now. I very highly doubt this is something I'm doing wrong and that it is simply a problem with the game, but I would love to hear some other opinions from more-experienced players.

I would also really like it if Magic Dart ignored AC so I would never deal no damage with it, but I'll hold my tongue on that one for now.

[ydeve]

Most casters can pick up a weapon and use untrained melee to clear the first floor. A short sword works really well. I play mostly casters, and most of my characters don't die on the first floor. Sure, there are those times when you exit the entry vault and find a jackal pack waiting you, but most of the time you have some tools. Maybe a DE or Te would have some trouble due to low HP.

[dynast]

What race are you playing as a spellcaster? I feel you that getting killed by jackals packs and giant geckos are annoying, but that doesnt happen often. If i could give you any tip is to avoid engaging humanoids when you start the game, start small, killing bats and mice until xl 2 at least, you do have some stealth, use it wisely, try to be more strategic when covering the first floor, dont go too far, dont turn corners that could have a creature too close on the other side, dont walk to deadends, specially in open rooms. Basically make sure your map has a circular route that you can scum for hp/mp while being chased.

With that said, i do agree that the first floors are too chance dependent, in comparison to the rest of the game, that is.

[Sprucery]

Elliptic's streak of 43 has several non-fast spellcasters: TeCj, KoEE, VSEE, NaNe, DDFi, KoCj, OpMo, CeCK, DgEE, MiCK, HEAs, VSFi, CeAE, DrAr, OgNe, NaBe, HuAE, SpAM, OpFE, DDAs, FoSk, SpIE, VSSk, GrTm, HOSk, HOGl, MiAK, HuAK, OgHu, DDAr, FoFE, MiWr, DrVM, SpWz, TrVM, GrBe, TrAE, FeCj, MfAs, GhWr, VpIE, DDSu, TrAM.

For the first few floors it blows to be a pure caster

Don't try to be a pure caster.

Of course my 15-rune is with SpEn

Ironically, SpEn broke Elliptic's streak...

[Tiktacy]

Is there any particular reason he chose Chaos Knight for a streak? I was always under the impression that they were a challenge class.

[Hurkyl]

IIRC, I once looked at whether a speed 10 Wz of a 'normal' casting race with zero mana and standing next to a jackal should try to melee with a zero skill short sword or run around in circles to regain MP and cast more magic darts. I'm pretty sure magic dart was the winner by a fair margin.

(but take this with a few grains of salt since it's an old memory)

[ion_frigate]

Elliptic's streak of 43 has several non-fast spellcasters: TeCj, KoEE, VSEE, NaNe, DDFi, KoCj, OpMo, CeCK, DgEE, MiCK, HEAs, VSFi, CeAE, DrAr, OgNe, NaBe, HuAE, SpAM, OpFE, DDAs, FoSk, SpIE, VSSk, GrTm, HOSk, HOGl, MiAK, HuAK, OgHu, DDAr, FoFE, MiWr, DrVM, SpWz, TrVM, GrBe, TrAE, FeCj, MfAs, GhWr, VpIE, DDSu, TrAM.

Will people please stop citing this to dismiss complaints about the early game? The fact that the early game is beatable does not mean that the early game is good. As the OP and others have pointed out, most situations that lead to death on D:1 are ultimately avoidable, but a major point of the OP was also that the early game is boring. There aren't a whole lot of strategies to try, and many of them (like pillar-dancing to recharge MP) are tedious as hell.

And the title of the OP isn't wrong: the early game is chance-dependent. It's just that "unlucky" means "lots of tedium" instead of death, if you have the stomach to sit through several minutes of grinding rats/bats, pillar-dancing, placing exclusions, etc.

[PowerOfKaishin]

Most casters can pick up a weapon and use untrained melee to clear the first floor. A short sword works really well. I play mostly casters, and most of my characters don't die on the first floor. Sure, there are those times when you exit the entry vault and find a jackal pack waiting you, but most of the time you have some tools. Maybe a DE or Te would have some trouble due to low HP.

I straight up do not believe you. Hobgoblins with clubs wreck me when I try this. So do adders and jackals. And no, I generally do not actively engage adders as a race without rPois, so let's avoid that point. The most normal race I've played with regards to this situation is the demonspawn, who does not have low HP. I have still had this issue with a wizard demonspawn. Until you have call imp it's just... no.

What race are you playing as a spellcaster? I feel you that getting killed by jackals packs and giant geckos are annoying, but that doesnt happen often. If i could give you any tip is to avoid engaging humanoids when you start the game, start small, killing bats and mice until xl 2 at least, you do have some stealth, use it wisely, try to be more strategic when covering the first floor, dont go too far, dont turn corners that could have a creature too close on the other side, dont walk to deadends, specially in open rooms. Basically make sure your map has a circular route that you can scum for hp/mp while being chased.

Ds, VS, DE, and Ng are the big ones. It almost never happens as a VS, obviously, especially considering the only magic class I use with them is transmuter, but the rest are somewhat common.

With that said, i do agree that the first floors are too chance dependent, in comparison to the rest of the game, that is.

That's an interesting strategy, but how do I avoid humanoids? I've had about 1 out of every 4 early game deaths because I just walk around a bit as a not-enchanter or a not-assassin and everyone on the floor rushes me.

Elliptic's streak of 43 has several non-fast spellcasters: TeCj, KoEE, VSEE, NaNe, DDFi, KoCj, OpMo, CeCK, DgEE, MiCK, HEAs, VSFi, CeAE, DrAr, OgNe, NaBe, HuAE, SpAM, OpFE, DDAs, FoSk, SpIE, VSSk, GrTm, HOSk, HOGl, MiAK, HuAK, OgHu, DDAr, FoFE, MiWr, DrVM, SpWz, TrVM, GrBe, TrAE, FeCj, MfAs, GhWr, VpIE, DDSu, TrAM.

He got a victory with a formicid in there. That's pretty badass. I want to see a video of this streak. Is there a video?

Don't try to be a pure caster.

I meant starting as a pure caster. Of course I can pick up a weapon if I find one, but even that is not possible all the time. And of course punching things to death almost never seems to work.

Ironically, SpEn broke Elliptic's streak...

SpEn is like one of the easiest class-race combinations out the entire game. I wonder what got him.

IIRC, I once looked at whether a speed 10 Wz of a 'normal' casting race with zero mana and standing next to a jackal should try to melee with a zero skill short sword or run around in circles to regain MP and cast more magic darts. I'm pretty sure magic dart was the winner by a fair margin.

(but take this with a few grains of salt since it's an old memory)

That's crazy. With 2 AC I get bitten to shreds by those fuckers in seconds. But this further goes to show how bad of an idea it is to melee jackals as a not-melee race.

Will people please stop citing this to dismiss complaints about the early game? The fact that the early game is beatable does not mean that the early game is good. As the OP and others have pointed out, most situations that lead to death on D:1 are ultimately avoidable, but a major point of the OP was also that the early game is boring. There aren't a whole lot of strategies to try, and many of them (like pillar-dancing to recharge MP) are tedious as hell.

Admittingly, I was complaining about having this problem as a Naga. But yeah, it really does take out a lot from the game. Thanks for getting that.

And the title of the OP isn't wrong: the early game is chance-dependent. It's just that "unlucky" means "lots of tedium" instead of death, if you have the stomach to sit through several minutes of grinding rats/bats, pillar-dancing, placing exclusions, etc.

In the case of Nagas it actually does mean death. That's what got me so mad I had to complain about this on the forums. Rather ironic that for such a tanky race their 1 less starting AC far counterbalances their massive HP pool, especially if they try to kite to prolong their death to get MP.

[Jarlyk]

Nagas have poison spit, which helps a lot in surviving D:1. It's on a pretty low cooldown, too, so you can still do a little bit of kiting as long as you start the engagement from a good distance. They also get excellent cheap Stealth. I've had an easier time on D:1 with nagas than with other squishy races. The slowness becomes more of a problem when you first meet priests and centaurs, depending on the nature of the encounter.

I do agree that D:1 is pretty dangerous, though. Entry vaults with only one door, a jackal pack outside and no obstacle to use for maneuvering are a really hard start for any squishy background. You might try closing the door, hiding in the corner of the room, waiting a while, then opening the door again. I'm usually not this careful, though, so I splat a lot in the early game.

[Siegurt]

FWIW I have died 0 times in the last 25 book starts I've played on level 1, I suspect skill *might* be the difference between your experience and mine.

[PowerOfKaishin]

Maybe. I just fired 5 magic darts at a bat and it was at green health (one notch from the top). I managed to get a lucky punch that killed it from there.

Poison spit misses half the time.

Should I invest in stealth right off the bat? I thought the strategy was investing in killdudes stuff.

Edit: Just splatted a Naga. I tried to poison spit a cockroach. It missed. I then magic darted it twice and remembered its AC makes that mostly useless, so I then tried to magic dart the hobgoblin that just showed up at the edge of my radar. No health bar was displayed after unloading 3 magic darts. The cockroach still had bright green near full health bar as well. Ugh...

Edit 2: Didn't realize I was derailing this. I still stand by what I said in the first post. I simply pointed out these things because while they are extreme, stuff like this isn't uncommon at all.

[tabstorm]

Naga casters are probably the worst thing in the game early on short of MuCK and I think even that is debatable

[ydeve]

Almost all my lvl1 spell shots at bats miss. That isn't a problem, since bats do hardly any damage and you can just melee them. If you're wasting mp on stuff like rats and bats (and by D2 goblins, etc), you're putting yourself at risk of a hobgoblin rounding the corner when you're at low mp.

[Blade]

Naga casters are probably the worst thing in the game early on short of MuCK and I think even that is debatable

Considering that MuCK is pretty strong early on and its real problems show up much past d:1, yes, it's debatable.

[hannobal]

I don't have much problem with D:1 deaths - at that point you have invested only couple of minutes to the game, if you die, it's not a big investment you lose.
Just start another character.

[Sar]

I don't think it's fair to conflate stuff like NaIE and NaNe with stuff like NaAE (hard to set up double-bounces when you are slow) and NaWr (though maybe blink tomahawks and free ?blink are good and I don't know shit?) and broadly call it "Naga casters" and say that they all are worse than MuCK on D:1.

Edit: also I enjoy earlygame, lack of options is what makes it interesting. I don't play optimally, though.

[MainiacJoe]

D:1 is how you start-scum, blaming the RNG.

[PowerOfKaishin]

Naga casters are probably the worst thing in the game early on short of MuCK and I think even that is debatable

Please, they aren't THAT bad. Not on paper, anyway.

Almost all my lvl1 spell shots at bats miss. That isn't a problem, since bats do hardly any damage and you can just melee them. If you're wasting mp on stuff like rats and bats (and by D2 goblins, etc), you're putting yourself at risk of a hobgoblin rounding the corner when you're at low mp.

The thing is, Magic Dart doesn't miss. That's why I find it absolutely ridiculous to have this situation come up so much.

D:1 is how you start-scum, blaming the RNG.

I shouldn't have to do that since it's against the game's philosophy. It's aggravating to have to do it around 3 or 4 times.

[ydeve]

Almost all my lvl1 spell shots at bats miss. That isn't a problem, since bats do hardly any damage and you can just melee them. If you're wasting mp on stuff like rats and bats (and by D2 goblins, etc), you're putting yourself at risk of a hobgoblin rounding the corner when you're at low mp.

The thing is, Magic Dart doesn't miss. That's why I find it absolutely ridiculous to have this situation come up so much.

No they don't, they do 0-1 damage instead. What's the big difference?


If you're having to restart 3-4 times to get a book start off of D1, you're doing something wrong.

[MainiacJoe]

I was joking abut the start-scumming. I agree that if you are dying on D:1 3-4 times in a row with a book start, you're doing something wrong.

You do realize that you don't have to fight everything, right? Your #1 priority on D:1 as a caster is to find a melee weapon. Pretend you're in Abyss and try to avoid everything until you find one, or alternately kill a kobold or (hob)goblin if it's carrying one. Even a club is better than nothing, but replace it as soon as you can. You won't train it, of course, but it's purpose is to save your MP for things you really need them on.

Lately I've always turned on Fighting and turned off all other skills on D:1, because your starting skills can manage that floor and the HP helps and the accuracy helps your zero-skill weapon.

[Lasty]

Nagas have poison spit, which helps a lot in surviving D:1

Also, for nagas with magic dart in particular, try to use your poison spit on sleeping creatures before using dart. Magic dart always hits, but poison spit benefits from the ease of hitting a sleeping monster. Also, starting with poison spit means that you'll probably have spit available again when you're out of mp.

In general, success with the non-IE book backgrounds means making a serious effort to only attract one monster at a time, softening it up with magic (and anything else you have) as it approaches, and then finishing it off with whatever weapon you scrounged off the floor.

[Hurkyl]

IIRC, I once looked at whether a speed 10 Wz of a 'normal' casting race with zero mana and standing next to a jackal should try to melee with a zero skill short sword or run around in circles to regain MP and cast more magic darts. I'm pretty sure magic dart was the winner by a fair margin.

(but take this with a few grains of salt since it's an old memory)

I'm going to recant on this; I think it was unarmed combat I was looking at. I'm not sure how things stand with any weapon, or if other starting spells are concerned.

[Kate]

Moved to advice since that's mostly what the thread consists of.

[Jeremiah]

In my experience dying on D:2-3 is much more likely than dying on D:1

[tabstorm]

Naga casters are probably the worst thing in the game early on short of MuCK and I think even that is debatable

Please, they aren't THAT bad. Not on paper, anyway.

Yes they are. Early game magic use requires a lot of running away to recover MP, and you have bad defenses. Nagas are very bad at running away and also have worse AC and EV than most other races.

This is also why people who suggest that Chei is best used with a Mage background are wrong.

[Reptisaurus]

Naga casters are probably the worst thing in the game early on short of MuCK and I think even that is debatable

Please, they aren't THAT bad. Not on paper, anyway.

Oh yeah they are. Every other race at least gives you the option of pillar dancing, which is your # 1 escape option for a low level mage if a fight goes bad. I would specifically say that Naga Warpers are the worst race/class combination for d:1, but any naga caster is gonna have a rough time of it .

[scorpionwarrior]

If you want a challenging game that isn't dependent on dice rolls maybe play something other than a crpg?