SpEn and a horde of yaks


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Temple Termagant

Posts: 11

Joined: Monday, 15th February 2016, 22:44

Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 08:05

SpEn and a horde of yaks

I'm killing it with my SpEn. Literally. Single enemies are hilariously easy.
Then I get to the Lair. With yaks. They come in herds and always notice me. I don't have the firepower to take them down and I'm at a loss how to deal with them. To a lesser extent orcs pose the same issue. How do I deal with them?

For completeness sake my char:

  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.17.1 (tiles) character file.

Stabby the Covert (Spriggan Enchanter)              Turns: 8799, Time: 00:41:40

Health: 39/39      AC:  4    Str:  4    XL:     9   Next: 97%
Magic:  21/21      EV: 25    Int: 17    God:    Dithmenos [*.....]
Gold:   476        SH:  0    Dex: 19    Spells: 5 memorised, 11 levels left

rFire  . . .     SeeInvis +     u - +3 dagger (speed)
rCold  + . .     Clarity  .     b - +2 robe
rNeg   . . .     SustAt   .     (shield restricted)
rPois  .         Gourm    .     (helmet restricted)
rElec  .         Spirit   .     (no cloak)
rCorr  .         Warding  .     (gloves unavailable)
rMut   .         Stasis   .     (boots unavailable)
MR     +....                    a - amulet of rage
Stlth  ++++++++..               k - ring of protection from cold
                                (no ring)

@: wreathed by umbra, very quick, somewhat resistant to hostile enchantments,
extraordinarily stealthy
A: unfitting armour, see invisible, herbivore 3, speed 3, slow metabolism 2
a: Renounce Religion, Evoke Berserk Rage


You are on level 1 of the Lair of Beasts.
You worship Dithmenos.
Dithmenos is aware of your devotion.
You are very hungry.

You have visited 3 branches of the dungeon, and seen 10 of its levels.

You have collected 476 gold pieces.

Inventory:

Hand Weapons
 u - a +3 dagger of speed (weapon)
Armour
 b - a +2 robe (worn)
Jewellery
 a - an amulet of rage (around neck)
 k - a ring of protection from cold (right hand)
 o - a notched opal ring
 r - a notched opal ring
 s - an opal ring
Wands
 j - a wand of frost
 m - a wand of digging {zapped: 1}
Scrolls
 e - 2 scrolls of remove curse
 i - a scroll of identify
 n - a scroll of teleportation
 p - a scroll labeled VOTZEGGAYVE
 w - a scroll of fog
Potions
 f - a potion of invisibility
 g - 5 potions of heal wounds
 h - 7 potions of curing
 l - a potion of ambrosia
 v - a viscous golden potion
Books
 c - a book of Maledictions   
   
    Spells                             Type                      Level
    a - Corona                       Hexes                         1
    b - Ensorcelled Hibernation      Hexes/Ice                     2
    c - Confuse                      Hexes                         3
    d - Tukima's Dance               Hexes                         3
    e - Dazzling Spray               Conjuration/Hexes             3
Comestibles
 d - 7 bread rations
 q - 3 royal jellies
 t - 7 slices of pizza


   Skills:
 + Level 6.0 Short Blades
 + Level 8.8 Dodging
 * Level 13.3 Stealth
 + Level 7.5 Spellcasting
 + Level 7.9 Hexes


You have 11 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Corona                Hex            ####...      1%          1    None
b - Ensorcelled Hibernat  Hex/Ice        ###...       3%          2    None
c - Confuse               Hex            ####....     1%          3    ##.....
d - Dazzling Spray        Conj/Hex       ###.....     10%         3    ##.....
e - Tukima's Dance        Hex            ####....     1%          3    ##.....


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (8/15)             Temple (1/1) D:6            Lair (1/8) D:8

Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Dithmenos
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Gozag
Kikubaaqudgha
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
Qazlal
Ru
Sif Muna
Trog
Vehumet
Xom
Yredelemnul
Zin
The Shining One

Shops:
D:7 *

Annotations:
D:4 Bish's ghost, amateur HOFi


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You are tiny and cannot use many weapons and most armour.
You have supernaturally acute eyesight.
You are a herbivore.
You cover ground extremely quickly.
You need consume almost no food.


Message History

You butcher the black mamba corpse.
There is a stone staircase leading down here.
You see here a pair of gloves.
w - a scroll of fog
Found 11 stones and a club.
You hear the slow rumble of a very distant avalanche of rocks.
You see here 11 stones.
You see here a club.
A yak comes into view.
A yak comes into view.
The yak bellows!
A yak comes into view.
Saving game... please wait.
You feel an oppressive heat about you.
There is an entrance to a volcano on this level. Hurry and find it before the entrance collapses!
Welcome back, Stabby the Spriggan Enchanter.
Dithmenos says: Spread the eternal night.
Press ? for a list of commands and other information.
Char dumped to '/home/harm/.crawl/morgue/Stabby.txt'.
Saving game... please wait.

           .
           ..
            #.    ###  #
            ...####.##.####
            #....!........Y
          ...   #..@....Y.Y
          #..   ##.###.#.##
          #.##  #P.##
   ########..#  #..P#
   #.....##.P## ##.##
####.###.#....###...#
##...###..........#....#
..........###..#....P###
#.#..###...#..####.###
###.## ##.###.###..#
 ##.#  #P..........#


You can see 3 yaks.

Vanquished Creatures
  Pikel (D:6)
  A black mamba (Lair:1)
  Prince Ribbit (D:6)
  A wyvern (D:8)
  A human (D:7)
  A hippogriff (D:7)
  A hog (D:7)
  Menkaure (D:4)
  A water moccasin (D:8)
  An ice beast (D:7)
  4 ogres
  2 phantoms
  A centaur (D:6)
  A necrophage (D:8)
  A gnoll sergeant (D:7)
  A giant frog (D:6)
  3 scorpions
  6 killer bees (D:8)
  2 crimson imps
  3 hounds
  2 orc priests (D:3)
  3 iguanas
  An orc wizard (D:3)
  6 worker ants
  3 sheep (D:7)
  A hound skeleton (D:8)
  9 gnolls
  2 worker ant zombies
  3 adders
  An ooze (D:3)
  2 worms
  2 adder skeletons
  2 giant geckos (D:4)
  16 orcs
  4 bats
  4 giant cockroaches
  5 goblins
  6 hobgoblins
  2 jackals (D:2)
  4 ball pythons
  A giant cockroach zombie (D:5)
  3 giant gecko skeletons
  6 giant newts
  11 kobolds
  5 quokkas
  12 rats
  A fungus (D:8)
151 creatures vanquished.

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | Stabby the Spriggan Enchanter began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 9/9 MP: 5/5
   229 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 10/13 MP: 6/6
   234 | D:1      | Learned a level 2 spell: Ensorcelled Hibernation
  1078 | D:2      | Reached skill level 5 in Stealth
  1078 | D:2      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 16/16 MP: 8/8
  1924 | D:3      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 21/21 MP: 1/10
  1961 | D:3      | Reached skill level 6 in Stealth
  2123 | D:3      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 10/24 MP: 0/11
  3159 | D:4      | Noticed Menkaure
  3161 | D:4      | Killed Menkaure
  3161 | D:4      | Reached skill level 7 in Stealth
  3161 | D:4      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 28/28 MP: 9/13
  3343 | D:4      | Noticed Bish's ghost (amateur HOFi)
  3427 | D:4      | Learned a level 3 spell: Confuse
  3431 | D:4      | Learned a level 3 spell: Dazzling Spray
  3675 | D:4      | Reached skill level 5 in Hexes
  3703 | D:4      | Reached skill level 8 in Stealth
  3871 | D:4      | Reached skill level 5 in Dodging
  4135 | D:4      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 32/32 MP: 14/14
  4262 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  5208 | D:6      | Identified a scroll of acquirement
  5361 | D:6      | Noticed Prince Ribbit
  5422 | D:6      | Killed Prince Ribbit
  5422 | D:6      | Reached skill level 9 in Stealth
  5422 | D:6      | Reached skill level 5 in Spellcasting
  5578 | D:6      | Learned a level 3 spell: Tukima's Dance
  5797 | D:6      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  5804 | Temple   | Entered the Ecumenical Temple
  5904 | Temple   | Became a worshipper of Dithmenos the Shadowed
  6007 | D:6      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 36/36 MP: 17/17
  6041 | D:6      | Found an iron altar of Okawaru.
  6165 | D:6      | Noticed Pikel
  6169 | D:6      | Killed Pikel
  6169 | D:6      | Reached skill level 10 in Stealth
  6548 | D:7      | Reached skill level 11 in Stealth
  6799 | D:7      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 39/39 MP: 16/19
  6970 | D:7      | Reached skill level 5 in Short Blades
  6988 | D:7      | Found Gozag's Platinum Reserve.
  6989 | D:7      | Found an opulent altar of Gozag.
  7343 | D:7      | Reached skill level 12 in Stealth
  7346 | D:7      | Reached * piety under Dithmenos
  7969 | D:8      | Reached skill level 13 in Stealth
  8033 | D:8      | Found a stormy altar of Qazlal.
  8122 | D:7      | Found a sacrificial altar of Ru.
  8169 | D:8      | Found a staircase to the Lair.
  8692 | Lair:1   | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts
  8739 | Lair:1   | Noticed a black mamba
  8746 | Lair:1   | Killed a black mamba


Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Dagger            |    86 |    74 |   205 ||   365
 Cast: Corona            |     7 |     3 |     1 ||    11
       Ensorcelled Hiber |    17 |    23 |    37 ||    77
       Confuse           |       |       |    10 ||    10
  Use: Potion            |     3 |       |       ||     3
       Scroll            |       |     3 |    13 ||    16
 Stab: Sleeping          |    26 |    25 |    49 ||   100
       Distracted        |       |     2 |     3 ||     5
       Confused          |       |       |     7 ||     7
  Eat: Bread ration      |       |     1 |       ||     1


Vestibule Violator

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Joined: Sunday, 14th July 2013, 16:36

Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 08:15

Re: SpEn and a horde of yaks

You don't kill yaks with firepower; you kill them by putting them to sleep then getting a sleep stab.

Your spell power for Ensorcelled Hibernation is, in my opinion, somewhat low for Lair. This is making it harder to deal with mildly resistant enemies, but should still work for yaks.

Elephants are what is going to be a nightmare for you, with your low spell power (and death yaks too, of course). You can use Dazzling Spray to get blind stabs (and maybe Confuse on the elephants), but you'll get hurt and it will be slow going. Blowguns with poison needles are a much easier way to deal with them.

---

On a more general note, I think your Dodging is somewhat low (thus making it more often painful if you try to EH while next to a monster rather than backing away or to go for Confuse stabs). Also, your Short Blades + Stealth is a little high, although I suppose it's not too much more than what you need to kill a hydra with one stab and it's probably better to be on the safe side of that boundary.
Last edited by Hurkyl on Thursday, 18th February 2016, 08:39, edited 3 times in total.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Joined: Wednesday, 23rd October 2013, 07:56

Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 08:25

Re: SpEn and a horde of yaks

You have overtrained Spellcasting. Stop training it until you need more spell slots (which means for a long time).
DCSS: 97:...MfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}
FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWrNaAKBaFi{MiDeMfDe}{DrAKTrAMGhEnGnWz}
{PaBeDjFi}OgAKPaCAGnCjOgCKMfAEAtCKSpCjDEEE{HOSu
Bloat: 17: RaRoPrPh{GuStGnCa}{ArEtZoNb}KiPaAnDrBXDBQOApDaMeAGBiOCNKAsFnFlUs{RoBoNeWi

Shoals Surfer

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Joined: Monday, 17th December 2012, 16:04

Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 09:02

Re: SpEn and a horde of yaks

Wear id those rings, you have rem curse, and could be holding +12 slaying or ac and not using it.
My advice: train ice magic to ~5-6 to increas sp of hibernation.
See if you have someway to become invisible gear/spell to make death yaks easy.
Might want to do a few levels of dungeon instead of lair, it can be easier for certain characters then early lair (d8) especially if you're xp lite.
aka: Innameasone and electricaloddity

Temple Termagant

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Joined: Monday, 15th February 2016, 22:44

Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 09:08

Re: SpEn and a horde of yaks

I love this forum. :)

You guys gave some conflicting information. My spell power of EH is a tad too low. But my Spellcasting is overtrained. Should I then start training Ice Magic? Seems a waste since there aren't any other good Ice spells.

EDIT: our posts crossed, I'm training Ice Magic now and IDed one of the rings as a ring of invisibility. Now all I need to do is figure out how to use that effectively.

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 280

Joined: Monday, 17th December 2012, 16:04

Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 09:14

Re: SpEn and a horde of yaks

First 5 lvls are almost free and give a bigger boost to sp then 1 lvl of hexes.
Train some evo for the ring, inv is awesome on stabbers! :D
Best way to use it is become invisible when no monsters are in sight, then stab the poor beasties to death. Whatch out though some have sinv!
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Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 10:25

Re: SpEn and a horde of yaks

haarts wrote:You guys gave some conflicting information. My spell power of EH is a tad too low. But my Spellcasting is overtrained. Should I then start training Ice Magic?


Not conflicting; in terms of spell power and success, one point of spellcasting only counts as a quarter of a point in every spell school.

Thus, for EH, it takes two points of Spellcasting skill to get the same effect a single point of Hex (or Ice) skill; by training Spellcasting and Hexes equally (and none in Ice), your spell power is lower than it could have been.

Seems a waste since there aren't any other good Ice spells.

So? You still have one good Ice spell. A few points of Ice skill will always be boosting EH's power (except maybe late game should you train a lot of Hexes and Spellcasting to reach the cap with those alone, and by then a few points of 'wasted' skill don't matter), and hexes tend to be very dependent on spellpower.

Incidentally, my SpEn's tend to pick up some Ice magic to take advantage of the initial training I do. (Freezing Cloud is a favorite, especially since you often want to train Air anyways, for Silence and Deflect missiles should you get them)

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Barkeep

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Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 15:24

Re: SpEn and a horde of yaks

Also, if you haven't been doing so, lure one yak at a time away from its buddies and deal with it 1v1. Having a herd of yaks gang up on you is going to be brutal as all get-out.

You're faster than basically anything else you'll meet, so anything that damages monsters when you aren't standing next to them is going to be good for your character. It's especially strong in Lair where basically nothing has a ranged attack.
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.

Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 17:45

Re: SpEn and a horde of yaks

Whatch out though some have sinv!

In Lair, the surprise SInv monsters are the canines.
Won (52). Remaining (15): 5 species: Ba, Fe, Mu, Na, Op; 5 Backgrounds: AM, Wr, Su, AE, Ar; 5 gods: Jiyv, newNem, WJC, newSif, newFedh

Halls Hopper

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Post Friday, 19th February 2016, 04:00

Re: SpEn and a horde of yaks

Have you found a blowgun?
Poison needles take yaks out easily with a normal speed character- a spriggan with a blowgun should trivialize yaks...

Vestibule Violator

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Post Friday, 19th February 2016, 05:39

Re: SpEn and a horde of yaks

njvack wrote:Also, if you haven't been doing so, lure one yak at a time away from its buddies and deal with it 1v1. Having a herd of yaks gang up on you is going to be brutal as all get-out.

I'm usually lazy and if there's not a nearby corridor, I just maneuver to the corner of a pack; for example:

  Code:
  Y
 YY
@


and cast EH from there. I only risk getting attacked once if it resists, and a chance of getting attacked once if it succeeds.

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Post Thursday, 25th February 2016, 23:04

Re: SpEn and a horde of yaks

killdudes wrote:Have you found a blowgun?
Poison needles take yaks out easily with a normal speed character- a spriggan with a blowgun should trivialize yaks...


I'd like to emphasize this advice. I ignored blowguns for a long time because I wasn't training throwing, or they seemed like a lot of work to manage. Then I started picking them up and found out that they can be very useful with 0 skill on any character up through about lair. And on a Spriggan, where you can just kite things forever while you poison them up, they are much better. The last 2 Spriggan Enchanters I had were only able to kill Death Yaks through lots of poison needles, and it was slow, but I did it without getting hurt and without any skill investment. There will be a subset of enemies susceptible to poison and resistant to enchantments, and needles will be a great option for them.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 25th February 2016, 23:06

Re: SpEn and a horde of yaks

TwoLeggedMammal wrote:I ignored blowguns for a long time because I wasn't training throwing, or they seemed like a lot of work to manage. Then I started picking them up and found out that they can be very useful with 0 skill on any character up through about lair.

Also, curare is useful throughout the game.
DCSS: 97:...MfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}
FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWrNaAKBaFi{MiDeMfDe}{DrAKTrAMGhEnGnWz}
{PaBeDjFi}OgAKPaCAGnCjOgCKMfAEAtCKSpCjDEEE{HOSu
Bloat: 17: RaRoPrPh{GuStGnCa}{ArEtZoNb}KiPaAnDrBXDBQOApDaMeAGBiOCNKAsFnFlUs{RoBoNeWi

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Post Thursday, 25th February 2016, 23:18

Re: SpEn and a horde of yaks

A spriggan and a blowgun can take out even that big elephant graveyard vault with no trouble at all.
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Post Friday, 26th February 2016, 05:51

Re: SpEn and a horde of yaks

TwoLeggedMammal wrote:
killdudes wrote:Have you found a blowgun?
Poison needles take yaks out easily with a normal speed character- a spriggan with a blowgun should trivialize yaks...


I'd like to emphasize this advice. I ignored blowguns for a long time because I wasn't training throwing, or they seemed like a lot of work to manage. Then I started picking them up and found out that they can be very useful with 0 skill on any character up through about lair. And on a Spriggan, where you can just kite things forever while you poison them up, they are much better. The last 2 Spriggan Enchanters I had were only able to kill Death Yaks through lots of poison needles, and it was slow, but I did it without getting hurt and without any skill investment. There will be a subset of enemies susceptible to poison and resistant to enchantments, and needles will be a great option for them.


It should be noted, that unless things have changed, poison and curare needles don't use Throwing. Also, yaks should be trivial for this char, regardless, as you can easily just run away from them.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Sunday, 28th February 2016, 09:27

Re: SpEn and a horde of yaks

Could swear I saw a recent thread where curare and high throwing were mentioned for taking out oofs.

Cocytus Succeeder

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Post Sunday, 28th February 2016, 12:51

Re: SpEn and a horde of yaks

It was almost certainly referred to Orb Guardians, unless blowgun' stab worked against things immune to needles too - I never checked that.
Anyway blowgun stab has been recently removed so that isn't a question anyway anymore.
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok

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