How to win a melee octopode on a streak?


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Slime Squisher

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Post Wednesday, 17th February 2016, 09:03

How to win a melee octopode on a streak?

Many people claim that octopodes are fun and not-so-hard, but I have a feeling that there's a hidden message in that ("if you are lucky enough to find good equipment and spells"). Considering that octopodes have the worst win ratio of all species, they are certainly amongst the most challenging, too.

Is it possible to reliably win a melee octpode on a streak? +AC rings are nowhere near guaranteed, the same goes for ozo/stoneskin and even shield. My problems start mostly after temple, when a single orc warrior or any of bigger lair creatures has a significant potential of being a crazy boss who kills 1AC/20+EV octopode in two hits. Nice stealth apt is helpful to avoid initial encounters, but eventually some enemies must be killed to get experience...

It seems to me that winning a melee octopode safely is a real challenge if one is forced to play with 1AC. Is it viable to branch into things like summonings/hexes ASAP? What god do you recommend? Same as always? Trog does not appeal to me because spell buffs seem extremely handy later on. Probably Fedhas is top-tier considering the ease of disengaging.

Any thoughts / hints? Are there things that work well for you?
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Zot Zealot

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Post Wednesday, 17th February 2016, 09:30

Berder gave some advice in Berder's melee octopode formula.

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Dis Charger

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Post Wednesday, 17th February 2016, 09:46

Re: How to win a melee octopode on a streak?

Op make good stabbers, if you consider them as melee...

Also Op having the worst winrate is because they are an appealing specie, and are played by a lot of new players...
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 17th February 2016, 09:54

Re: How to win a melee octopode on a streak?

mopl wrote:Also Op having the worst winrate is because they are an appealing specie

it's spelled "appalling"

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Barkeep

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Post Wednesday, 17th February 2016, 15:02

Re:

Turukano wrote:Berder gave some advice in Berder's melee octopode formula.

IIRC Dith doesn't let you shadow step to plants anymore, so if you're all "lolz I can follow this guide and get away from everything in Lair", sorry.
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Swamp Slogger

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Post Wednesday, 17th February 2016, 15:45

Re: How to win a melee octopode on a streak?

I would honestly look to going Trog if possible. Berserk will handle most things and for everything else there's BIA. Fedhas will get you through lair and orc as easily as Trog and makes Zot5 trivial but between orc and zot, Trog is much better and guarantees strong weapons. The sketchiest stage is the period before * piety and berserk is reached. Early altars of other good gods pose a dilemma but I think tavern wisdom is slightly too far towards the side of 'take the first useful god'.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 17th February 2016, 15:56

Re: How to win a melee octopode on a streak?

Wrt weapons Trog is probably your best bet at getting a good one-hander and as an Op I'd probably like to have a shield.

Cocytus Succeeder

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Post Wednesday, 17th February 2016, 16:05

Re: How to win a melee octopode on a streak?

My advice: just tab everything as constriction will kill things very fast.
Then die to a gnoll on D:8 or a giant frog on L:2 and forget about your streak because AC 1 and low hp sucks and why are you even bothering to have to plan to fight every popcorn monster in a game so long as it can kill you in two turns.


Otherwise my only not terribly frustating experiences with Op are:
- IE, which is strong because it's IE and you also have your guaranteed AC ass-saver spell.
- Fi\Hu\Be, using a shield, Trog and javelins that kills thing easy from distance and still can take some beat in melee because of shield and BIA.
- Su and Ne works easily because there are other things that can take punishment for you.
- Tm. It's bad but you have good AC and HP till post Lair. Later Ice form as you know is kinda weak and if you haven't found HF or DF enjoy your very glass cannon with BH.
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Post Wednesday, 17th February 2016, 19:36

Re: How to win a melee octopode on a streak?

There are two parts of the game where Op is stronger than average: D:1-2, where your constricting aux does more work than low-skill melee, and post-endgame, where you can take advantage of having more slots than other races. In between, Op is mostly harder than average.

In terms of the best way to play melee Op, start by ignoring every single specific case in Berder's guide, aside from the common-sense stuff that applies to all characters (e.g. use a blowgun if you have one). All the gods that are normally good are still good for melee Op, but ones that give extra defense of some sort are better than normal (Dith, Fedhas, Ru, Yred, Kiku, even Qaz) as are the ones that give ways to harm things that aren't standing next to you (Veh, Makh, Fedhas, Qaz, Ru, Lucy, etc.). Dodging and Stealth are your defensive skills, and you have little excuse not to get a few levels of both early in the game. Shields are better for you than average, but not so much so that you need to abandon a good early two-hander. Branching into spells is definitely worth doing.

Edit:
Here are a few examples of melee-start Ops, covering a range of different approaches:
OpGl^Dith, specializing in hexes w/ Majin Bo: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Lasty/morgu ... 214038.txt
OpFi^Qaz, specializing in kicking ass with a vamp broad axe and Qaz invocations: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Lasty/morgu ... 003945.txt
OpCK^Xom, stabbing, large shield, evocations, summoning: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Lasty/morgu ... 215141.txt
OpAK^Lucy, great mace of protection, summoning: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Lasty/morgu ... 023609.txt

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Blades Runner

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Post Wednesday, 17th February 2016, 20:50

Re: How to win a melee octopode on a streak?

Gozag Gozag Gozag Gozag Gozag Gozag Gozag Gozag.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Wednesday, 17th February 2016, 23:12

Re: How to win a melee octopode on a streak?

Turukano wrote:Berder gave some advice in Berder's melee octopode formula.

Worshipping one of the weaker gods in the game on an already bad character is probably not a good idea.

I would just play Trog or Oka and get ready to rest a lot. At least with Oka you might get a good shield or hat and he dosen't forbid statue form later on in the game. I don't see why this guide obsesses over "handling hydras" when they move at the same speed as you, and dumping XP into a skill you won't use a whole lot later when the character is near its weakest seems dumb.

Op of Trog is not much fun but it's not especially difficult. Fedhas is also a good choice. Just play it like you would play any really bad character, since that is what octopodes are.
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Barkeep

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Post Wednesday, 17th February 2016, 23:51

Re: How to win a melee octopode on a streak?

Wait, do you mean you won't use Throwing much? I would use a boatload of throwing. Might not train it that early, but I'm also a terrible player.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 00:21

Re: How to win a melee octopode on a streak?

Right now it's probably optimal to use Throwing on all characters because the current formulas for it are bonkers. I generally abstain for that same reason.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 01:29

Re: How to win a melee octopode on a streak?

Because your character is the weakest in Lair, won't have a lot of projectiles to throw anyway, and needs to train melee to do damage or evasion to not splat. Throwing is overpowered in mid-late game when there's enough ammo to use it semi-regularly, but everything is OP mid-late game except stealth, as long as you keep training something you can do whatever. The same is true with launchers - by the time there's enough ammo to use them regularly, everything is overpowered. I could see if it said to use throwing with Oka because then you would have actual projectiles to throw with +5 to the skill, not Dith.
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Slime Squisher

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Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 09:50

Re: How to win a melee octopode on a streak?

Berder's guide made me smile - mostly because of the part about hydras and plant shadow-stepping. Additional stealth and evasion from Dithmeons are advantages which octopode shall enjoy. Nevertheless, no panic button means Dith would not solve my problems. At least the topic had some other interesting remarks.

Throwing is not exciting without Oka/Trog. I've been a victim of limited ammo multiple times. I'm rather inclined to train Evocations. It's not a one-to-one replacement, but training both skills takes eventually more exp I'm willing to spend on supportive skills.

Abyss Ambulator

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Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 11:56

Re: How to win a melee octopode on a streak?

I train stealth early on Octopodes because a) huge stealth aptitude and b) no armor penalty means c) you can just walk away from anything that would otherwise kill you. Pick your fights at your leisure, gain xp, and boost stealth as needed for cheap.

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 13:41

Re: How to win a melee octopode on a streak?

How to win melee octopode:
- go transmuter
- find a branded dagger or ss, protection and draining and electrocution are nice
- train fighting, dodging
- train your weapon skill until you drop weapon delay to 1.0
- train transmutations until you get s2s reliably castable
- go chei, so what
- use s2s against anything scary
- start training UC when you get blade hands castable
- train shields when you find one
- if you find SF or HF, nice
- if not, don't play Op
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Slime Squisher

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Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 20:37

Re: How to win a melee octopode on a streak?

unfortunately statue form is the only comfortable way of playing op
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Tomb Titivator

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Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 20:56

Re: How to win a melee octopode on a streak?

I will dispute that clain on the grounds of the tediousness of statueform. Casting statueform is about as tedious as pressing 5 after a fight.
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Slime Squisher

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Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 22:37

Re: How to win a melee octopode on a streak?

le_nerd wrote:I will dispute that clain on the grounds of the tediousness of statueform. Casting statueform is about as tedious as pressing 5 after a fight.


when you macro "o" under "+" and "cast stoneform" under "-" (on numpad) its fine. i once macroed "wield staff of wizardry, cast stoneskin, cast statue form, cast haste, unwield staff" under one button. it was fine and didnt kill me
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 19th February 2016, 06:07

Re: How to win a melee octopode on a streak?

I bet most of the people who diss Berder's guide here aren't even greatoctopode greatplayer tenpercenters with a streak of octopode wins...
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 19th February 2016, 06:48

Re: How to win a melee octopode on a streak?

Sar wrote:I bet most of the people who diss Berder's guide here aren't even greatoctopode greatplayer tenpercenters with a streak of octopode wins...

Perhaps Berder wrote that guide so that there would be no other such player... :)
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 19th February 2016, 09:00

Re: How to win a melee octopode on a streak?

That's devilish. Made me want to write a Naga guide, but then I remember tasonir had done it already!

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Post Sunday, 21st February 2016, 12:24

Re: How to win a melee octopode on a streak?

I play melee octopodes mostly, and I think the most reliably option right now (on trunk) is OpFi of Pakellas using polearms. Early game until temple should be manageable. The trident is perhaps the most powerful starting weapon, the shield will adequately compensate for lack of AC early on, and the aux attack makes short work of adders and individual killer bees. Leveling stealth to 4-5 allows you to survive shafting and aggro enemies one at a time.
Why Pakellas? Once you find a few good wands, the rest of the game becomes a cakewalk. You will have practically infinite charges for wand of heal wounds, teleport and confusion. Confusion will help you kill even magic resistant monsters such as hydras in lair since you can easily spare 5 charges for one. Any rods that pakellas gifts you are just icing on the cake.

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