The Tavern

I heard gozag gives better loot depending on how deep you are (deeper shops have better loot). So, I am wondering how depth is calculated. Is it additive? Are branches weighted?

For example, Lair spawns on D9, Orc on D11, Slime on L8, Vaults on D13, and Crypt on V3.
Additive:
Lair1 Depth = D9+L1= 10?
Lair8 Depth = D9+L8=17
Slime6 Depth = D9+L8+S6=23
Crypt1 Depth = D13+V3+C1=17
Tomb1 Depth= D113+V3+C3+T1=20
Depths5 Depth = D15+U5=20
Zot5 Depth = D15+U5+Z5=25

Is this accurate?

Close -- that's sort of how it used to work. Now each branch has a specific depth it starts at, and the location where the entrance spawns is irrelevant. So L:1 will be depth 10 no matter where the Lair entrance spawns.

e: Also, D:1 is depth 0, so D:9 would be depth 8, for instance.

An easy way to find the depth of a place you're interested in is to warp yourself there in wizmode (&~) and then check the level builder stats (& ctrl-E).

Ahh

Lair 1=11
Lair 8=17
Slime 1=17
Slime 6=22
Vaults 1=19
Vaults 5=23
Crypt 1=19
Tomb 1 =21
Depths 1=22
Depths 5=26
Zot 1=27
Zot 5=31
Gehenna 7=34
Pan =24

Zig 1= 27
Zig 27= 53
Edit: Gozag Merchants don't go to zig.

Thank you!

So it is encouraged behaviour to dive into depths as gozaq worshipper and spawn a couple of shops around the entrace for high quality loot? Seems still scummy.

I love such incentives. I like to dive, and I think the modest bonus provided by the gold god creates excellent challenges and strategy. There is an incentive as a gozag worshiper to kill the guards at D15 as soon as it is feasible. And then hope this isn't U1:

edgefigaro wrote: And then hope this isn't U1:

that is hilarious

I get a U:1 like that often enough that I'd be leery of making that dive just for the sake of trying to get a better shop, tbh. Although I wasn't aware that shop quality varied based on where you placed the shops. I'd always assumed it was based on your xl or something.

edgefigaro wrote:I love such incentives. I like to dive, and I think the modest bonus provided by the gold god creates excellent challenges and strategy. There is an incentive as a gozag worshiper to kill the guards at D15 as soon as it is feasible. And then hope this isn't U1:

Wow nothing standing right next to your stairs? I am shocked. I am starting to think that is the norm for the game now. It seems rare I go down any stairs not find monsters right next to me immediately before I do anything. Glad to see it does happen that you get other configurations, though that many in one place in U1 looks a little painful.

U1 break is no joke now. This was one of my latest:

I thought that gozag shops were special cased to generate loot as if the depth was 25, so it doesn't matter where you place the shops.

This thread has given me +1 reasons to want to learn Shatter in a 3 rune game.

Serious question: what do you DO if you get that for your U:1 entrance? Stairdance a lot? entropy weavers, basilisks, orbs of eyes--yikes! And you can't bypass it.

MainiacJoe wrote:Serious question: what do you DO if you get that for your U:1 entrance?

Depends on the character and the monsters involved. In some cases stairdancing may be an option, otherwise blink to a corridor and work from there. If I'm out of blinking, probably teleport somewhere else. Scrolls of fear are good in this kind of situations.

Both of those screenshots offer a "run downstairs" option.

MainiacJoe wrote:Serious question: what do you DO if you get that for your U:1 entrance? Stairdance a lot? entropy weavers, basilisks, orbs of eyes--yikes! And you can't bypass it.

Note that both of these nasty welcoming parties also include down stairs and/or hatches very close to the entrance. So basically you can escape the initial party and tackle U:1 from different stairs (coming from below), but only by committing to staying in Depths until you can resolve the issue.

On that particular run, I remember ?immolation, ?summoning, evokables, potions, and a teleport were all involved, but I thinned the heard significantly as I retreated for the upper left before the teleport.

inspiring topic

obv no jool shop and also no statue form book ;P but that randart ring behind the glass nao tickles me to get further into depths and splat

my last OP^gozag didnt get a single prot ring during 15 runes and multiple stores so id say gozag is a cool and strong god for OP but nothing to rely on to get op rings ;P

IIRC: Vault Spoiler Below

Spoiler: show

Is it possible to create shops in Zig:27 to get awesome items for sell ?

Turns out merchants don't want to go to zigs.

mopl wrote:Is it possible to create shops in Zig:27 to get awesome items for sell ?

Maybe? Gozag is actually a fairly useful Zig god, anyways. Odds of enemies being stalled grow with the amount of gold around, so hit a huge pack with firestorm and suddenly everything else is stalled.

imho stairdancing is the best solution for medium to high survivability characters. If you have decent ac+hp, you can safely walk in/out and grab a few monsters. Frail characters shouldn't do this, and can either try a teleport, blinking (probably several times at least, may be very expensive if you are using scrolls), or going downstairs.

Teleports are always risky but you are almost guaranteed to end up in a better spot than this trap.

Also, reading a scroll of tele before you take the upstairs often a good strat.

That's a great table, except... I created all my shops in Temple and Hell, and neither is on the list.

Weird thing is, I thought the Temple shops were a touch better than the Hell ones...

All of the above is now obsolete in trunk.

Code:: 72c9994 | Chris Campbell | 2016-01-09 02:30:18 +0000 Scale the effective depth of Gozag shops with XL Rather than having it depend on your actual location, since that encourages things like travelling to place all shops as deep as possible.

le_nerd wrote:All of the above is now obsolete in trunk.

Code:
72c9994 | Chris Campbell | 2016-01-09 02:30:18 +0000 Scale the effective depth of Gozag shops with XL Rather than having it depend on your actual location, since that encourages things like travelling to place all shops as deep as possible.

This is a good change. Diving ought to be something you do by choice for fun, not to play a god optimally.

MainiacJoe wrote:
le_nerd wrote:All of the above is now obsolete in trunk.

Code:
72c9994 | Chris Campbell | 2016-01-09 02:30:18 +0000 Scale the effective depth of Gozag shops with XL Rather than having it depend on your actual location, since that encourages things like travelling to place all shops as deep as possible.
This is a good change. Diving ought to be something you do by choice for fun, not to play a god optimally.

I'm ambivalent about the change in specific (Gozag shops scaling with XL). However, I strongly disagree with the reasoning stated, and the statement "Diving ought to be something you do by choice for fun, not to play a god optimally."

God conduct allows for different design space in the game. I like diving, and I like god conducts that encourage (and reward) the player to take mini-challenges.

In this case I feel that gozag encourages people to dip U1 early (for a rather marginal benefit of 1-3 shops). Dangerous and exciting! Never know what that depths portal is going to give you, or if a wizlab/bazaar is on U1, further confounding players. Makes for interesting gameplay.

There should be more conducts in the game that encourage the player to break from clearing levels 1 at a time before proceeding to the next (optimal).

Back to this specific case, Goazg wasn't designed as a diving god, and this is somewhat an unexpected consequence of him being designed out of other mechanics and purposes. However, This kind of mechanic is something I appreciate as a player, and I want that opinion represented. I don't necessarily want a god designed around it, but certainly appreciated it in a piece of an overall god.

I also believe this kind of mechanic can have a place in crawl and be a better game for it.

Diving is a great mechanic, and it's what makes speedrunning so compelling/challenging. But it's a pretty serious increase in difficulty, and probably not something you'd want to encourage for/push on players who are struggling to win. Keep regular players focused on the win, and let the few elite speedrunners focus on winning in <25k turns

I wouldn't mind a god who focused on speed/diving, but I think you'd want that to be the main idea behind the god, rather than a side effect of shop generation.

Having Gozag reward diving would be good if that forced you to actually risk danger, but that wasn't how it would have worked. The "diving" proposal would reward you for stepping just one toe onto the floor, so that you can get a significant boost in shop quality merely by walking down stairs into Depths and then coming back out; ditto all the Lair branches, Slime, Tomb, Hell, etc. It was eminently gameable without adding any interesting level of risk.

The Tavern

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