The Tavern

duvessa wrote:Gr and Mi aren't even in the top 5 most broken races, and neither are these.

Who would you put at the top? I'm looking to try for a few more 15 rune wins with different races.

I would guess (in no particular order)

DD - start with wand of Heal Wounds
Sp - 0.6 move speed
Ce - 0.7 move speed
Tr - Claws 3, Robust 3 and Regen 2
Dr - Robust 1 and innate AC

I don't think broken means the same as good here, I think the most broken races would probably be something like

Ce, Sp, Fe (movespeed)
DD (Start with HW etc.)
Vp (their resist system is kind of broken in the sense of being poorly thought out)

Commas mean I can't decide between several items. I actually did mean "good" because that's what the post I was responding to meant (it was something like "brokenly overpowered")

Top 6 strongest species imo: DD, Ce > Sp > Tr > Dg, Fe
Top 6 weakest species: Mu, Na > DE, Ds, Fo, Te
Top 4 species with the worst, most broken mechanics: DD > Fe > Vp > Gh
Top 2 best designed species: Hu > Dg
Gods: Fedhas, Trog > everyone else > Chei, Xom > Qazlal

I think DD is probably stronger than Ce and Dg is probably stronger than Fe.

Lacertilians would be 3rd in the most broken mechanics list but they're definitely going to change so that isn't the case, right???

duvessa wrote:Commas mean I can't decide between several items. I actually did mean "good" because that's what the post I was responding to meant (it was something like "brokenly overpowered")

Top 6 strongest species imo: DD, Ce > Sp > Tr > Dg, Fe

I think DD is probably stronger than Ce and Dg is probably stronger than Fe.

Lacertilians would be 3rd in the most broken mechanics list but they're definitely going to change so that isn't the case, right???

Are you sure you aren't underestimating fast movement here? I can agree with DD>Ce, but Dg>Fe? Really?

By my perspective of species strength i.e. ability to survive and win a 3 rune game:

Tr, DD > Ce > Mi, HO > Sp > Dr > rest

I don't think Fe is any good until you get your first life, and I think Sp speed is overrated vs their HP if you consider 1-2 shot scenarios and getting trapped. Og, Gr, Hu, Gh, Dg are hard to place but probably above average. Gr really is good apart from orc priests and Grinder.

If I'm interpreting "best species" as "which species are you personally most likely to win with":

Tr >> Ce >> DD >> Gh, Mi > Dr

I think those are the species with the easiest early games that don't suffer for it later on. I don't much care for Sp and Fe; I feel like almost every death I take in Crawl is my fault, but those two species tend to have a higher ratio of "oops, bad teleport" or "oops, my EV failed" type of deaths that seem beyond my control even when the run is going well. The time wasted on those runs is more than enough to put me off of trying to use Sp to streak.

WingedEspeon wrote:
duvessa wrote:Commas mean I can't decide between several items. I actually did mean "good" because that's what the post I was responding to meant (it was something like "brokenly overpowered")

Top 6 strongest species imo: DD, Ce > Sp > Tr > Dg, Fe

I think DD is probably stronger than Ce and Dg is probably stronger than Fe.

Lacertilians would be 3rd in the most broken mechanics list but they're definitely going to change so that isn't the case, right???

Are you sure you aren't underestimating fast movement here? I can agree with DD>Ce, but Dg>Fe? Really?

Fe isn't as fast as Sp or Ce (which is actually important) and has the worst hp. It is top tier upon reaching xl4 but I suspect the first 3 XLs make it a little worse than Dg.
I could also see Mi, HO, Og, or Dr in that position. Dr really shouldn't have +10% hp.

I don't think Gr is better than median.

…
I maybe wrong, but no matter how fast spriggs and centaurs are, kiting is a real pain. Sprigg is in the last place, felid and centaurs come next.(centaurs shit ac and ev).
IMO, Gr>=Mi>Vs>Ho>rest>Mu>>>>>>>>>Ce>Fe>Sp.
Hate low hp races.(Vs is kinda broken)

You hate low HP races but put Gr at the top?

Sar wrote:You hate low HP races but put Gr at the top?

Well, Gr has superb defences(AC AC AC AC AC AC AC AC). And torment resist. Guess it's an exception.

Forgot to put troll, but i hate it because of trollish hunger, so why not put it at bottom.

Ce is like Dr with better equipment options and innate swiftness in return for (mostly) worse aptitudes, which sounds like a good trade given how much XP there is in the game, but it still kind of sucks because you have to play Ce.

Fe is cool because it looks like it sucks at first but it's actually really great, what with the extra lives and movespeed and awesome stealth. Low HP doesn't matter too much if stuff can't actually kill you, and only Sp can pick their fights better.

Gr's low HP hurts more than Sp/Fe/VS because Gr doesn't have move speed to get out of early trouble nor spirit shield+mana drain to give a secret bigger HP pool, and their AC doesn't do much about orc priest smiting or early ogres. But hey, at least they aren't Te.

Then again, I like Na even though they're pretty bad to start, so whatever

sweetrabies wrote:Ce is like Dr

except for armour restrictions, size, pretty much every single aptitude, resistances, innate AC, auxiliary attacks, HP bonus, movespeed bonus

otherwise, pretty much the same thing

Sar wrote:
sweetrabies wrote:Ce is like Dr

except for armour restrictions, size, pretty much every single aptitude, resistances, innate AC, auxiliary attacks, HP bonus, movespeed bonus

otherwise, pretty much the same thing

What HP bonus?

They both also have relitivly flat apts in broad "aptitude categorizes" like melee weapons and spell schools.

WingedEspeon wrote:
Sar wrote:
sweetrabies wrote:Ce is like Dr

except for armour restrictions, size, pretty much every single aptitude, resistances, innate AC, auxiliary attacks, HP bonus, movespeed bonus

otherwise, pretty much the same thing

What HP bonus?

Centaur get 10% extra HP.

Huh, I thought Ce get bigger HP bonus (+20%), my mistake. And yeah, I guess their aptitudes are kind of similar, with Ce ones being just worse by 1-2 points.

Sar wrote:except for armour restrictions, size, pretty much every single aptitude, resistances, innate AC, auxiliary attacks, HP bonus, movespeed bonus

otherwise, pretty much the same thing

Pretty much what WingedEspeon said, HP bonus and fairly even aptitudes across each group of skills. Dr resistances don't matter most of the time unless you get lucky with your color, and I pointed out the barding and movespeed advantages of Ce, so I'm not sure why you felt like acting as if I didn't. I guess I should've mentioned the breath weapon, but eh, I wasn't trying to do an exhaustive comparison between them *shrugs*

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Best Species (split from Lacertilians thread)

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