Unarmed and bucklers?

[Sometimes]

I have a level 23 Demigod Transmuter pummeling his way through the dungeon. He does all of his damage with bare or transmuted hands. Can he afford to wear a buckler? I can't work out exactly what the penalty is for unarmed, or if it could be mitigated by training.

[Shade]

I have a level 23 Demigod Transmuter pummeling his way through the dungeon. He does all of his damage with bare or transmuted hands. Can he afford to wear a buckler? I can't work out exactly what the penalty is for unarmed, or if it could be mitigated by training.

For casting, the penalty on a buckler goes away with Shields 7 (I think, off the top of my head). I've never found a buckler to be a big detriment to casting even with no Shields skill. For fighting with a weapon you'll get a "Your shield gets in the way" type message until your Shields is high enough. On a caster with a sword I've found the buckler worth it, especially if you can get one with a resist or reflection. I've played SETms with bucklers, and I didn't feel 'broken' with a few points in Shields...

Somebody else undoubtedly knows better than me, but if in doubt get some XP in your pool, and turn off dodging and armour, and go stand in front of a rat or something. To me a buckler is pretty much always worth it, even on a race that has a bad aptitude.

[XuaXua]

Depending on how many skills you have (skill levels get harder and harder to increase the more total skill levels you have; is there a chart that shows this? Sometimes I feel it takes 5000xp just to get level 1 in a skill), at level 23 if you turn off all other skills to train, you should get shields: 7 in no time.

Just remember to turn your skill training back on after you get it. Maybe don't turn off Fighting or Spellcasting (though Fighting may consume your points).

[mrbobbyg]

To quickly train shields:

1) Turn off fighting, dodging, and unarmed (or whatever skill you are using to kill things)

2) Get 10-20k experience in your pool

3) Go to d:1, find a bat, and let it attack you until you have no more exp in your pool. You should have a few points in shields.

4) turn fighting, dodging, and unarmed back on.

[absolutego]

guys, he's not asking how to train shields, but whether it's worth it.
you can compute it from this, if you feel like it:
http://crawl.develz.org/info/index.php?q=unarmed+combat
check aevp too.

[Sometimes]

Thanks, absolutego. I'm used to training up a bit of shields for other classes, just trying to work out the impact it'll have on my damage as an entirely unarmed combatant. Checking out that link now.

[absolutego]

don't thank me until you've read it. ;)
a simpler way to go about this is to check your current attack speed with '@', then equip the buckler, and check it again (you won't know how skill levels affect it, but at least you'll understand its effect right now). you can find out what the messages mean with the bots too (under 'attack delay'). you miss out on offhand attacks too but that's not a big deal.

[galehar]

For casting, the penalty on a buckler goes away with Shields 7 (I think, off the top of my head).

The evasion penalty goes away at skill level 5 for bucklers and normal size races. Check this.

Depending on how many skills you have (skill levels get harder and harder to increase the more total skill levels you have; is there a chart that shows this?

There is. You like numbers? I'm currently trying to revise the XP / skill point exchange rate, so that it doesn't depend on skill level anymore.

[XuaXua]

You like numbers?

You've seen my attempts at contribution to the EDIT: Spellcasting concept; what do you think?

Bookmarking this topic for further review when I can look at numbers.

[galehar]

You like numbers?

You've seen my attempts at contribution to the EDIT: Spellcasting concept; what do you think?

Bookmarking this topic for further review when I can look at numbers.

I already answered in the original topic. I really like the concept of "overskills" and think the way fighting and spellcasting work is one of the best feature of crawl's skill system. I don't consider any of the things you describe in "Problem summary" as a problem.

[Sometimes]

Thanks to everyone. I wore that buckler and had it trained enough not to interfere pretty fast. The extra defence was extremely handy, and I was doing most of my endgame fighting in lich form, so it stayed on. Didn't save my transmuted ass in a particularly cruel Zig, but that was entirely my fault.

[XuaXua]

You like numbers?

You've seen my attempts at contribution to the EDIT: Spellcasting concept; what do you think?

Bookmarking this topic for further review when I can look at numbers.

I already answered in the original topic.

Forgot I made that thread.

[smock]

Wait. So a troll monk should be wearing a large shield?

[Curio]

to sum up crawls unarmed combat:
Go Captain America!