Vorpal vs Flaming weapon brand in extended

[Tressol]

Assuming that you find no incredible randarts and are "stuck" with just a +9 weapon (Demon Whip, Triple Sword, GSC, whatever)... It seems to me that Vorpal would be the brand of choice, but that does not seem to be the conventional wisdom on the matter.

My reasons for feeling this way are twofold... Firstly, the standard argument - despite higher "base" damage (+25% vs +16.67... 1/3 less "bonus" damage, baseline) of the elemental brands, most threatening enemies, particularly in extended where one is constantly facing demons and such, but even in Zot where Ancient Liches and Orbs of Fire roam, resistances are common. A single pip of resistance means that flaming deals slightly less bonus damage than Vorpal.

The second reason... I have not dived into the code for damage and to see exactly brands when and how are applied, but my intuition is that it would make sense for Vorpal damage to be multiplied *before* applying AC, and if that were the case, it would be far superior against high AC opponents that also possess resistances (Hell Lords, etc). If this *isn't* the case, then I can see how many would find Flaming/Freezing "superior" to Vorpal - I might disagree, but I get it. On that note, even if Vorpal did less than it currently does (Say, +12.5%), it seems like a more interesting option (to me) for it to multiply before AC were applied, though that's beside the point for an "advice" thread.

[Siegurt]

Assuming that you find no incredible randarts and are "stuck" with just a +9 weapon (Demon Whip, Triple Sword, GSC, whatever)... It seems to me that Vorpal would be the brand of choice, but that does not seem to be the conventional wisdom on the matter.

My reasons for feeling this way are twofold... Firstly, the standard argument - despite higher "base" damage (+25% vs +16.67... 1/3 less "bonus" damage, baseline) of the elemental brands, most threatening enemies, particularly in extended where one is constantly facing demons and such, but even in Zot where Ancient Liches and Orbs of Fire roam, resistances are common. A single pip of resistance means that flaming deals slightly less bonus damage than Vorpal.

The second reason... I have not dived into the code for damage and to see exactly brands when and how are applied, but my intuition is that it would make sense for Vorpal damage to be multiplied *before* applying AC, and if that were the case, it would be far superior against high AC opponents that also possess resistances (Hell Lords, etc). If this *isn't* the case, then I can see how many would find Flaming/Freezing "superior" to Vorpal - I might disagree, but I get it. On that note, even if Vorpal did less than it currently does (Say, +12.5%), it seems like a more interesting option (to me) for it to multiply before AC were applied, though that's beside the point for an "advice" thread.

What actually happens is the damage *after AC is applied* is calculated, then vorpal or flaming or whatever is applied after that. So your intuition is incorrect. Also it's incorrect to say that it's +25%, it's technically d(50%) 25% is merely the average. (Literally it's "roll damage done divided by two" and "roll damage done divided by three" for flaming and vorpal respectively.)

[daggaz]

A +9 top-tier weapon is an endgame weapon regardless of the brand on it, assuming you put the skill points in. Obviously for extended, and if you want to do more damage, if you can find holy then that is the way to go, but elec, ice/fire, vorpal are just fine (thats my own preferred order there). If I am going melee, I will get my weapon, get one of those brands, and then get it maxed enchanted. The, if I find another of that weapon, I will use brand scrolls on it trying to go for something that is better or complimentary, and toss enchants on it as I find them. I've got a Gr with two +9 eveningstars, holy and elec, another Gr with two more +9 eveningstars with fire and ice, and a KoAs with +9 quickblades of ice and elec.

Antimagic is also a brand I will automatically keep now, having learned the error of my ways. But it doesnt pop up quite as often.

[Tressol]

Ahh - yes, that's what the wiki seemed to indicate, but I know that the wiki isn't always correct on these matters. I still think it would help to differentiate Vorpal as a brand if it were sort of an "AC Buster" - there are already some brands that sort of function that way (Pain, Electric), but those tend to taper off rather hard in terms of late-game damage output (particularly Pain in extended).

Anyway, the way you put it does help - "Roll damage done divided by x." Thanks for that, it does help to understand what's going on "behind the curtain."

Oh- there was another post as I was writing!

Daggaz - I was under the impression that Electric wouldn't be so hot in extended, due to it's "fixed" damage per hit/proc. Do you find that the relative rarity of Electricity resist (no Storm Hell, as it were) makes up for this, or am I underestimating just how much electric does per hit?

[daggaz]

Elec is a GREAT brand. It packs a punch, ignores AC (if I am not mistaken) which is big, and yes, almost nothing is elec resistant. The wiki gives a really bad impression that the additive damage will be outdone by a multiplicative brand on a slower weapon. I think the fsim trials people run here consistently show elec matching or beating fire/ice for all kinds of situations.

[Tressol]

Well, that's super, because Sojobo just dropped me a Triple Sword of Electrocution. :p

Also, Sojobo is a crazy badass. I had to teleport to get away from him more than once (Mara was also on Valuts:2 - you don't want to fight those two at the same time!), since I was having a hard time landing hits. Eventually, I took him down with Corpse Rot. Usually I have Freezing Cloud or Fireball or something at this point, so I can just ignore his incredible EV...

[daggaz]

Yeah, Sojobo is deadly even with rElec, one of the uniques I like to hit as hard and as fast as possible, or just avoid entirely (tho I often want his sword). I'd wager I've gotten into far more tight situations with him than Mara, actually.

[partial]

I was under the impression that Electric wouldn't be so hot in extended, due to it's "fixed" damage per hit/proc. Do you find that the relative rarity of Electricity resist (no Storm Hell, as it were) makes up for this, or am I underestimating just how much electric does per hit?

additive brands are extra good on fast weapons

[Sar]

Elec is good on any weapon.

[Magipi]

Elec is a GREAT brand. It packs a punch, ignores AC (if I am not mistaken) which is big, and yes, almost nothing is elec resistant.

Almost nothing is elec resistant, except all the 4 big Hell lords, 3 of the 4 big Pan lords (except Cerebov) and 3 of the 5 fiends.

Elec is a great brand, but in extended it is not THAT great.

[daggaz]

Lol Ok, so its only good for killing 99% of all the fights in extended you are going to get into, with the notable exception of the bosses who have their own weakness (and strengths) for which you typically always prepare for anyhow unless you want to die in extended. And since it is extended, that usually means you have some back up weapons you can switch to, or even a superior brand like holy which I mentioned first thing in this thread...


So what was your point again?

[chequers]

I don't really care what my brand is for anything but those elec resistant monsters tbh.

[daggaz]

Ok put it this way then: Ice is great against Cerebov, but there are other bosses who are resistant to it. There are also far more endgame monsters who are resistant to ice than to elec. And this problem is duplicated for each and every boss. So what do you do? Obviously the best answer is either holy or antimagic, but these brands aren't very easy to come buy and notably, cannot be generated with a brand weapon scroll.

That's why I said elec is a great brand. It will definitely get you to the end fights efficiently, and at that point, if your only option is to depend on your endgame weapon's brand (if you are melee-focused you should be able to kill them with an unbranded weapon, honestly, making use of other resources), you probably aren't going to do so well either way. Typically for a heavy melee build, I will pick up one or two useful switch weapons assuming I haven't found holy, it is extended after all. But if my first brand weapon scroll gives me elec on my endgame piece, I am NOT going to be rebranding that.

[Tressol]

It may or may not be worth noting that, when I posted the original question, Holy was not an option for the character I had in mind as it was a Demonspawn... Who did go on to win with an Electric branded weapon. I ended up using a lot of charms and some consumables to take down those bosses (hell lords in particular), and I still can't help but thinking a Vorpal brand would have been nice, but it worked well enough.

Speaking of which, do the multiplicative brands apply after buffs light Might, or is that like, a flat bonus that goes on at the very end?

[Pollen_Golem]

Buffs like might are applied before AC reduction and multiplicative brands are applied after AC reduction so yes because a before b and c after b means c after a.

[Tressol]

Awesome. That sort of seems like a mark in favor of multiplicative brands in extended, at least for bosses and difficult spots (where one would typically use Might, etc).

[Hurkyl]

Aside: cerebov doesn't have rElec either. A Staff of Air is probably the most damaging melee weapon in the game against him when in the hands of someone with nearly maxxed Air skill.