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Incoming Jugg nerf!
https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/4 ... 14aa3bdeec
Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.
Vestibule Violator
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Lasty wrote:I'm a little worried that this nerfs them too much, but there's also a concern about them being a relatively common one-shot-kill against squishier species. Scaling their damage over two dice makes that less likely, but at the cost of making AC way better against them.
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Lasty wrote:I'm a little worried that this nerfs them too much, but there's also a concern about them being a relatively common one-shot-kill against squishier species. Scaling their damage over two dice makes that less likely, but at the cost of making AC way better against them.
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The Ferret wrote:What's wrong with similarly dangerous enemies in the later game?
ManiacJoe wrote:one monster can throw away many hours of work
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Lasty wrote:The Ferret wrote:What's wrong with similarly dangerous enemies in the later game?
This is where I was at when I made juggernauts.ManiacJoe wrote:one monster can throw away many hours of work
Whereas this is how others on the team felt about it. The concern is that rounding a corner and getting one-shot is too big a risk and too big a problem after investing hours into a game.
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MainiacJoe wrote:I don't get to play that often, so one thing that worries me about juggernauts and the new death cobs and caustic shrikes is that one monster can throw away many hours of work, whereas with adders and ogres I'm still in the point of the game where a death is not felt as a big waste of time and effort.
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Location: Brazil. RS, Santa Cruz do Sul.
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dynast wrote:I believe players should have the feeling that they died because they made a mistake, not because they didnt stand a chance, which is usually the case for juggernauts.
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ldf wrote:I believe that juggernaut's danger is highly exaggerated. You have a plenty of options to deal with them safely with any character ready for Depths. Just release tab button and use these options.
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100 HP, 10AC
1d120: 12% chance of kill, 66.2 avg damage, 4.5% chance to hit for zero
1d80+1d40: 1.7% chance of kill, 50.6 avg damage, 1.0% chance to hit for zero
2d60: 3.2% chance to kill, 55.5 avg damage, 0.46% chance to hit for zero
100HP, 30AC (spriggan in dragon armour, or moderately wounded normal race)
1d120: 5.3% chance of kill, 46.3 avg damage, 12.9% chance to hit for zero
1d80+1d40: 0.2% chance of kill, 35.6 avg damage, 7.5% chance to hit for zero
2d60: 1.2% chance to kill, 45.8 avg damage, 4.0% chance to hit for zero
100HP, 50AC (wounded melee tank)
1d120: 3.2% chance of kill, 38.5 avg damage, 21.2% chance to hit for zero
1d80+1d40: 0.1% chance of kill, 25.5 avg damage, 19.4% chance to hit for zero
2d60: 0.7% chance to kill, 36.9 avg damage, 11.5% chance to hit for zero
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The Ferret wrote:Lasty wrote:I'm a little worried that this nerfs them too much, but there's also a concern about them being a relatively common one-shot-kill against squishier species. Scaling their damage over two dice makes that less likely, but at the cost of making AC way better against them.
So are adders and ogres and centaurs, and they're in a portion of the game where you aren't expected to have a full panoply of consumables and divine abilities to help you fight or escape.
What's wrong with similarly dangerous enemies in the later game?
Sometimes I feel like the reason that any character that reaches some arbitary point past early game should win is because we built the game to allow those wins.
dpeg wrote:The only good player is a dead player.
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partial wrote:The Ferret wrote:Lasty wrote:I'm a little worried that this nerfs them too much, but there's also a concern about them being a relatively common one-shot-kill against squishier species. Scaling their damage over two dice makes that less likely, but at the cost of making AC way better against them.
So are adders and ogres and centaurs, and they're in a portion of the game where you aren't expected to have a full panoply of consumables and divine abilities to help you fight or escape.
What's wrong with similarly dangerous enemies in the later game?
Sometimes I feel like the reason that any character that reaches some arbitary point past early game should win is because we built the game to allow those wins.
because restarting after a D1 poison death is nbd
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chequers wrote:Walking around a corner and getting one-shot by a Juggernaut is a Bad Death.
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sweetrabies wrote:On the other hand, it seems silly to me to say that getting popped after walking around a corner into an ogre in the early game is an acceptable/good/fun death
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Hurkyl wrote:That's a bad death too. But it's generally much less tragic, so there is less need to for the game design to make sacrifices (i.e. to be less fun/interesting/challenging/whatever) to avoid ogre OHKs.
So, yes, there may be situations where you are doomed - no action could have saved your life. But then, from the midgame on, most deaths are not of this type: By this stage, almost all casualties can be traced back to actual mistakes; if not tactical ones, then of a strategical type, like wrong skilling (too broad or too narrow), unwise use of resources (too conservative or too liberal), or wrong decisions about branch/god/gear.
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njvack wrote:Both Deathfeel and Jugg Nerf would be excellent band names.
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stoneychips wrote:Where are people getting trounced by these juggernauts generally?
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Bart wrote:
... Also, I think that due to most of players being spoiled and paranoid about juggernauts, they do not get a share of kills they deserve.
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they do not get a share of kills they deserve
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prozacelf wrote:Whereas Death Nerf would be an excellent sport. And uh...Juggfeel some sort of adult publication, I guess.
stoneychips wrote:It seems like some believe there should always be a threat of insta-death for no tactical reason (that's not counting strategy such as maybe lack of sufficient HP/general physical defenses?), and others feel there should generally be a chance for some tactical response, provided one has at least reasonably decent overall abilities whatever those would be. I suppose I'm in the second camp: I want a few ways to respond, at least say a turn or three.
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kuniqs wrote:Don't explore Depths
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