MuSu kicking my @$$

[Avigdore]

Anyone have any recommendations on how to get a MuSu going? I've tried 100? and can't make any real progress. Most of the time I'm dying in the first few monsters...a pair of anything, a coyote pack, sometimes even a single cockroach...I spend all 3 of my mana summoning level 1 stuff and end up dying to it anyway. I don't think that I'm a great player (I do have goodplayer I think), but I'm trying to make some headway with this combo, but failing miserably. Sometimes I can make it to the Lair, but haven't gotten even close to a rune yet. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Avigdore

[Siegurt]

Try this:
1. Train fighting.
2. If something comes into view walk away until you're in a cleared area.
3. Summon stuff, and importantly whack the things alongside your summons.

Treat your summons as augmentation to your offense rather than defense/blockers, train heavy into melee and use summons as a additional offense.

Groups of things can be tough, but solid fighting skills can help you with staying power, summons can be effectively used as supplemental offense.

[archaeo]

gammafunk, Crawl's most dedicated summoner, has some VODs on his twitch channel of doing DESu. I think a lot of your problems may have to do with just not having a great idea of using summons optimally, because it's not always incredibly obvious.

Siegurt's strategy is fine, but strikes me as a little difficult for MuSu, if only because hybridizing right away is tough for something that has atrocious apts and stats. If you can occasionally make it to Lair with this combo, you can win this combo. Worship Sif, learn to use summons, and don't forget to channel like your unlife depends on it.

[Siegurt]

gammafunk, Crawl's most dedicated summoner, has some VODs on his twitch channel of doing DESu. I think a lot of your problems may have to do with just not having a great idea of using summons optimally, because it's not always incredibly obvious.

Siegurt's strategy is fine, but strikes me as a little difficult for MuSu, if only because hybridizing right away is tough for something that has atrocious apts and stats. If you can occasionally make it to Lair with this combo, you can win this combo. Worship Sif, learn to use summons, and don't forget to channel like your unlife depends on it.

Yeah, I really meant that as a "get past level 1" strategy, If you're really dying in the first couple things you fight. (I really meant "train fighting, *only* just for like D:1 until you go down to D:2)

If that was hyperbole and you're really dying after that point, then my advice doesn't really apply..

[Avigdore]

Starting to think that my only real option is to ditch summoning as soon as I find my first weapon and just use the spells as my only escape option.I though I was going to quit the games trying to get a felid and a demigod to win...MuSu's still breaking me.

[archaeo]

avigdore, did you give gamma's videos a look? I just gave MuSu a try, and I think the only reason you could really be having a huge problem is a) training too many skills and b) not really knowing how to play summoners. Once you have to positioning down, MuSu isn't so bad, and is really no more tedious than any other summoner; you just have to know when to run away and reset an encounter, and running away using summons is often pretty safe in the early game.

[archaeo]

actually never mind, I just ran several MuSu and it really does kind of suck. Not sure I've hit upon the best way to do it either, but centaurs and orc packs can really just ruin a MuSu's day, huh?

[Avigdore]

And coyote packs, gnoll packs, bees swarms & sky beats on level 3...the always enjoyable spectre on level 5...still haven't figured it out.

[gammafunk]

I'm going to stream some C A S U A L MuSu for the tournament on twitch in a couple hours. Will try recording it while streaming so I can maybe turn the stream into a tutorial with voice-over commentary.

[gammafunk]

On my twitch page is a VOD of my first MuSu, which got to lair and 6* piety with Sif. I was messing around trying to kill a really huge yak pack with two komodos and got chomped to death by one of the latter after killing the Yaks. Wanted to see if I could kill the whole group instead of escaping part-way, so I got what I deserved there. If I'd realized it was my first ever MuSu, I'd probably not have messed around like that, since it's always cool to win a char first try. This char was quite straightforward overall, the only challenge being a D:9 vault with some crazy OoD monsters that I elected to fight. Highlights from my D:9 kills:

  Code:

A yaktaur captain (D:9)
A centaur warrior (D:9)
2 cyclopes (D:9)
A boulder beetle (D:9)

Definitely the earliest I've killed a yaktaur captain.

My skilling was the same initially that I do for speedruns: 33% SC / 66% summons until XL 4 when I can learn Ice Beast, then 25% SC / 25% Summons / 50% Ice until Ice 3, then back to 33% SC / 66% Summoning until I find Sif and get to one star piety for channel. Next I do 25% SC / 50% Summons / 25% Invo until 5 invo, followed by 33% Fighting / 66% Summoning until 5 fighting. About that time I turned on Dodging instead of Fighting and hit 6* piety with maybe 12 summons+ on Lair:1. The first gift had some good L5 spells and XXX, so at that point I'd be adding in more Fighting/Dodging/M&F (had elec whip) and only summons in magic before going back to SC and other magic skills. This is a nice way to skill if you use summons (and channel) very heavily like I do.

I noticed that D:1 can be more challenging with only 3 MP and clearly less spellpower compared to ELVES (no quokkas in early D:1, lots of miscasts early on in general), but I think your summons are still very strong early. My next run after the lair splat did die on D:1 to a giant gecko, but I wasn't being too careful with that fight. The 3rd MuSu is alive on D:4, and I'll continue from there tomorrow. My streams won't be the best demonstration of how to play purely for winrate, but they show good summoning tactics in terms of doing damage and staying out of harms way without too much kiting.

[Avigdore]

I was watching your twitch games last night, and learned a bit. Unfortunately I made my own plans on how to best play a summoner...don't be a summoner. I turned Lightning Spire into a Cloud Mage and made my escape that way. Chain lightning > summons for me =/. I do appreciate your examples, and I plan on going over them a bit more tonight. I should probably learn a better way than constantly being a cloud mage (seriously, check my http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/avigdore.html ).

  Code:

 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.17.0-23-g0de4337 (webtiles) character file.

2218634 Avigdore the Cloud Mage (level 27, 197/217 (226) HPs)
             Began as a Mummy Summoner on Nov 12, 2015.
             Was the Champion of Sif Muna.
             Escaped with the Orb
             ... and 4 runes on Nov 13, 2015!
             
             The game lasted 07:48:25 (79955 turns).

Avigdore the Cloud Mage (Mummy Summoner)           Turns: 79955, Time: 07:48:25

HP:   197/217 (226) AC: 25    Str: 13    XL:     27
MP:   55/55         EV: 14    Int: 26    God:    Sif Muna [******]
Gold: 9492          SH:  5    Dex: 13    Spells: 11 memorised, 7 levels left

rFire  + + .     SeeInvis +     a - staff of air
rCold  + + .     Clarity  .     c - +6 ring mail "Hacvuq" {rC+ MR+ SInv}
rNeg   + + +     SustAt   .     L - +0 buckler
rPois  ∞         Gourm    .     p - +2 helmet {Int+3}
rElec  +         Spirit   .     T - +1 cloak of the Turtle {rF++ MR+}
rCorr  .         Warding  .     h - +2 pair of gloves {Dex+3}
rMut   .         Stasis   .     H - +0 pair of boots of Cheibriados's Favour {rF+ Dex-5 Slay+2}
MR     +++++                    f - amulet of Vitality {Regen+ HP+15}
Stlth  +.........               o - ring "Noploasch" {MR+ MP+9}
                                P - ring of wizardry

@: very slightly contaminated, deflect missiles, almost entirely resistant to
hostile enchantments, very unstealthy
A: no food or potions, fire vulnerability, cold resistance 1, negative energy
resistance 3, torment resistance, unbreathing, in touch with death 2, restore
body
a: Self-Restoration, Channel Energy, Forget Spell, Renounce Religion
0: Orb of Zot
}: 4/15 runes: decaying, slimy, silver, gossamer


You escaped.
You worshipped Sif Muna.
Sif Muna was exalted by your worship.
You were not hungry.

You visited 11 branches of the dungeon, and saw 62 of its levels.
You visited 1 bazaar.
You also visited: Labyrinth, Ossuary, Ice Cave, Volcano and Wizlab.

You collected 10321 gold pieces.
You spent 829 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Missiles
 Z - 4 throwing nets (quivered)
Armour
 c - the +6 ring mail "Hacvuq" (worn) {rC+ MR+ SInv}
   (You took it off an orc on level 5 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It protects you from cold.
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
   It lets you see invisible.
 e - a +1 shield of protection
 h - a +2 pair of gloves of dexterity (worn)
 p - a +2 helmet of intelligence (worn)
 H - the +0 pair of boots of Cheibriados's Favour (worn) {rF+ Dex-5 Slay+2}
   (You found it on level 8 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   It affects your dexterity (-5).
   It affects your accuracy and damage with ranged weapons and melee attacks
   (+2).
   It protects you from fire.
 L - a +0 buckler (worn)
 T - the +1 cloak of the Turtle (worn) {rF++ MR+}
   (You found it on level 6 of the Pits of Slime)   
   
   It greatly protects you from fire.
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
Magical Staves
 a - an uncursed staff of air (weapon)
 b - an uncursed staff of power
 C - an uncursed staff of wizardry
Rods
 Y - a +7 rod of inaccuracy (13/13)
   (You found it on level 3 of the Elven Halls)
Jewellery
 f - the amulet of Vitality (around neck) {Regen+ HP+15}
   (You bought it in a shop in a bazaar)   
   
   [amulet of regeneration]
   
   It affects your health (+15).
   It increases your rate of regeneration.
 g - an uncursed amulet of clarity
 o - the ring "Noploasch" (right hand) {MR+ MP+9}
   (You found it in an ossuary)   
   
   [ring of magical power]
   
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
   It affects your magic capacity (+9).
 v - the ring of Ygak {rElec rC+ Str+5 SInv}
   (You took it off a deep elf sorcerer on level 3 of the Elven Halls)   
   
   [ring of see invisible]
   
   It affects your strength (+5).
   It protects you from cold.
   It insulates you from electricity.
   It lets you see invisible.
 w - the ring "Ekueczekh" {rC+ AC+4}
   (You found it on level 3 of the Swamp)   
   
   [ring of protection]
   
   It affects your AC (+4).
   It protects you from cold.
 G - an uncursed ring of protection from fire
 P - a ring of wizardry (left hand)
Wands
 i - a wand of fire (14)
 y - a wand of draining (7)
 z - a wand of disintegration (6)
 A - a wand of disintegration (13)
 D - a wand of teleportation (5)
 F - a wand of heal wounds (8)
 I - a wand of lightning (10)
 K - a wand of draining (4)
 N - a wand of cold (7)
 O - a wand of digging (8)
 R - a wand of cold (3)
Scrolls
 d - 3 scrolls of summoning
 j - 21 scrolls of teleportation
 l - 6 scrolls of blinking
 m - 21 scrolls of fog
 r - 6 scrolls of identify
 s - 7 scrolls of magic mapping
 t - 4 scrolls of immolation
 x - 28 scrolls of remove curse
 E - 6 scrolls of recharging
 S - 8 scrolls of fear
 V - a scroll of brand weapon
 X - a scroll of enchant armour
Books
 k - Koalueqe's Handbook of the Glacier
   (Sif Muna gifted it to you on level 5 of the Realm of Zot)   
   
    Spells                             Type                      Level
    a - Freeze                       Ice                           1
    b - Ozocubu's Armour             Charms/Ice                    3
    c - Condensation Shield          Ice                           4
    d - Bolt of Cold                 Conjuration/Ice               6
    e - Simulacrum                   Ice/Necromancy                6
Miscellaneous
 n - a lamp of fire
 q - a plain deck of summoning {drawn: 2}
 u - a lantern of shadows
 J - 2 phantom mirrors
 M - a plain deck of escape
 Q - a stone of tremors
 W - a phial of floods


   Skills:
 + Level 16.3 Fighting
 + Level 14.3 Armour
 - Level 8.0 Dodging
 - Level 1.5 Stealth
 - Level 5.0 Shields
 + Level 19.7 Spellcasting
 - Level 17.0 Conjurations
   Level 2.0 Hexes
 - Level 10.0 Charms
 - Level 5.0 Summonings
 - Level 2.0 Translocations
 - Level 5.0 Ice Magic
 + Level 24.3 Air Magic
 - Level 15.0 Invocations


You had 7 spell levels left.
You knew the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Airstrike             Air            ########..   0%          4    N/A
b - Orb of Destruction    Conj           #######...   1%          7    N/A
c - Blink                 Tloc           N/A          1%          2    N/A
d - Summon Lightning Spi  Summ/Air       ########     1%          4    N/A
e - Passage of Golubria   Tloc           N/A          6%          4    N/A
f - Chain Lightning       Conj/Air       ########..   2%          8    N/A
g - Freezing Cloud        Conj/Ice/Air   ########..   1%          6    N/A
h - Deflect Missiles      Chrm/Air       ########..   1%          6    N/A
i - Tornado               Air            ########..   9%          9    N/A
j - Haste                 Chrm           ######..     4%          6    N/A
k - Swiftness             Chrm/Air       ########     0%          2    N/A


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (15/15)            Temple (0/1) D:7            Lair (8/8) D:10
  Swamp (4/4) Lair:5       Spider (4/4) Lair:4        Slime (6/6) Lair:7
    Orc (4/4) D:9             Elf (3/3) Orc:4        Vaults (5/5) D:13
  Crypt (3/3) Vaults:3       Tomb (0/3) Crypt:3      Depths (5/5) D:15
    Zot (5/5) Depths:5