Hasted and Spider Form but still could not out run Duvessa

[Lawndart Jedi]

V0.17

Saw Duvessa and Dowan
Closed door so they couldn't see me
Drink Haste and change to spider form.
Duvessa opened down and was able run me down and attack at same time.
Duvessa was still able to move and attack for every single move of mine.

What am I doing wrong that spider form seems to be a total waste.

  Code:

Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.17-b1-6-g763630e (webtiles) character file.

1105 LawndartJedi the Magician (level 8, -1/59 HPs)
             Began as a Green Draconian Transmuter on Nov 3, 2015.
             Was a Follower of Okawaru.
             Slain by Duvessa
             ... wielding a +2 rapier of venom
              (6 damage)
             ... on level 6 of the Dungeon.
             The game lasted 00:29:53 (7714 turns).

LawndartJedi the Magician (DrTm)                    Turns: 7714, Time: 00:29:53

Health: -1/59      AC:  2    Str: 13    XL:     8   Next: 11%
Magic:  15/17      EV: 20    Int: 15    God:    Okawaru [*.....]
Gold:   141        SH:  0    Dex: 17    Spells: 5 memorised, 4 levels left

rFire  . . .     SeeInvis .       - Unarmed
rCold  + . .     Clarity  .     (armour unavailable)
rNeg   + . .     SustAt   .     (shield currently unavailable)
rPois  x         Gourm    .     (helmet currently unavailable)
rElec  .         Spirit   .     (cloak currently unavailable)
rCorr  .         Warding  .     (gloves currently unavailable)
rMut   .         Stasis   +     (boots currently unavailable)
MR     .....                    s - amulet of stasis
Stlth  ++........               q - ring of positive energy
                                k - ring of protection from cold

@: lethally poisoned (-1 -> -32), spider-form, not resistant to hostile
enchantments, unstealthy
A: (breathe noxious fumes), unfitting armour, (poison resistance),
(cold-blooded), AC +6
a: End Transformation, Heroism, Renounce Religion


You were on level 6 of the Dungeon.
You worshipped Okawaru.
Okawaru was aware of your devotion.
You were not hungry.

You were a venomous arachnid creature.

You visited 1 branch of the dungeon, and saw 6 of its levels.

You collected 281 gold pieces.
You spent 140 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Missiles
 a - 144 arrows
 e - 5 stones
 E - 3 tomahawks (quivered)
Armour
 m - a +0 cloak (melded)
Jewellery
 k - a ring of protection from cold (left front leg)
 q - a ring of positive energy (right front leg)
 s - an amulet of stasis (around neck)
Wands
 w - a wand of random effects (38)
Scrolls
 d - 2 scrolls of amnesia
 f - 4 scrolls of enchant weapon
 n - 3 scrolls of fog
 v - a scroll of recharging {unknown}
 x - a scroll of teleportation {unknown}
 y - a scroll of random uselessness {unknown}
 A - 3 scrolls of remove curse
 B - 2 scrolls of magic mapping {unknown}
 C - a scroll of fear {unknown}
Potions
 g - 2 potions of curing
 h - a potion of mutation
 i - 3 potions of agility
 j - a potion of cure mutation {unknown}
 l - a potion of might {unknown}
 o - a potion of cancellation
 p - a potion of brilliance {unknown}
 r - 2 potions of haste
 t - 2 potions of flight
Books
 b - a book of Changes   
   
    Spells                             Type                      Level
    a - Beastly Appendage            Transmutation                 1
    b - Sticks to Snakes             Transmutation                 2
    c - Spider Form                  Transmutation/Poison          3
    d - Ice Form                     Ice/Transmutation             4
    e - Blade Hands                  Transmutation                 5
Comestibles
 c - 5 bread rations
 D - 3 beef jerkies


   Skills:
 - Level 1.1 Fighting
 - Level 2.1 Dodging
 + Level 5.0 Unarmed Combat
 - Level 6.0 Spellcasting
 + Level 5.3 Transmutations
 - Level 3.1 Poison Magic


You had 4 spell levels left.
You knew the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Beastly Appendage     Trmt           ###...       8%          1    None
b - Blade Hands           Trmt           ###.......   75%         5    ######.
i - Ice Form              Ice/Trmt       ##......     75%         4    ####...
s - Sticks to Snakes      Trmt           ###.......   10%         2    #......
w - Spider Form           Trmt/Pois      ###.......   24%         3    ##.....


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (6/15)           
Temple: D:4-7       

Altars:
Ashenzari
Gozag
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
Qazlal
Ru
Sif Muna
Vehumet
Xom

Shops:
D:4 *

Annotations:
D:6 Dowan, Duvessa


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

((You can breathe blasts of noxious fumes.))
((Your lurid green scales are hard (AC +6).))
Your body does not fit into most forms of armour.
((Your system is resistant to poisons.))
((You are cold-blooded and may be slowed by cold attacks.))


Message History

Dowan drinks a potion. Dowan is healed! Dowan looks more healthy.
You completely miss Duvessa.
Duvessa is severely wounded.
You feel very sick.
Duvessa hits you with a rapier of venom!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Dowan casts a spell.
Dowan blinks!
You hit Duvessa but do no damage.
Duvessa is severely wounded.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You feel very sick.
Duvessa barely misses you. Duvessa misses you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You feel very sick.
Unknown command.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You feel very sick.
Duvessa hits you with a rapier of venom.
You die...

    ## ### ###
    #..#..##.###
    #.....#....#
    #....e#....#
    #.....'....#
    #.....#e...#
    #.....#.s..#
 ############.#####
##..##....###.##..##
#.<........#.......#
##.........#.......#
 #.........##..##.##
#..........##..####
+...............#
##..#########...#


You could see Duvessa and Dowan.

Vanquished Creatures
  Sigmund (D:5)
  2 ice beasts (D:5)
  A phantom (D:5)
  A centaur (D:5)
  2 giant frogs (D:5)
  2 crimson imps (D:5)
  2 orc wizards (D:5)
  3 worker ants
  3 iguanas (D:5)
  A hound skeleton (D:4)
  6 adders
  3 gnolls
  An ooze (D:1)
  3 adder skeletons
  11 orcs
  10 bats
  6 giant cockroaches
  9 goblins
  4 hobgoblins
  4 jackals
  4 quokkas
  3 ball pythons
  5 giant geckos
  4 giant newts
  12 kobolds
  4 rats
107 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (collateral kills)
  A gnoll (D:4)
  A hobgoblin (D:3)
2 creatures vanquished.

Grand Total: 109 creatures vanquished

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | LawndartJedi the Draconian Transmuter began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 16/16 MP: 3/3
   118 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 18/23 MP: 3/5
   454 | D:1      | HP: 1/23 [gnoll/flail (7)]
   457 | D:1      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 1/28 MP: 4/6
  1235 | D:2      | Learned a level 2 spell: Sticks to Snakes
  1239 | D:2      | Learned a level 3 spell: Spider Form
  1742 | D:2      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 35/35 MP: 6/8
  2737 | D:4      | Noticed a phantom
  3376 | D:4      | Found Coiqoqar's General Store.
  3384 | D:4      | Bought a potion of haste for 140 gold pieces
  3433 | D:4      | Found an opulent altar of Gozag.
  3593 | D:4      | Reached skill level 4 in Transmutations
  3627 | D:4      | Found a shattered altar of Ashenzari.
  3905 | D:4      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 34/40 MP: 7/9
  3911 | D:4      | Learned a level 4 spell: Ice Form
  3925 | D:4      | Found a sacrificial altar of Ru.
  3932 | D:4      | Found a sparkling altar of Nemelex Xobeh.
  3939 | D:4      | Found a deep blue altar of Sif Muna.
  3944 | D:4      | Found a stormy altar of Qazlal.
  3955 | D:4      | Found a radiant altar of Vehumet.
  3962 | D:4      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
  3967 | D:4      | Found an iron altar of Okawaru.
  3971 | D:4      | Became a worshipper of Warmaster Okawaru
  4072 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  4378 | D:5      | Noticed Sigmund
  5126 | D:5      | Killed Sigmund
  5126 | D:5      | Reached skill level 5 in Transmutations
  5126 | D:5      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 39/47 MP: 7/10
  5614 | D:5      | Noticed an ice beast
  5644 | D:5      | Killed an ice beast
  5644 | D:5      | Reached * piety under Okawaru
  5644 | D:5      | Reached skill level 5 in Unarmed Combat
  5644 | D:5      | Your scales start taking on a lurid green colour.
  5644 | D:5      | Gained mutation: Your system is resistant to poisons. [Green Draconian growth]
  5644 | D:5      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 28/52 MP: 3/12
  5852 | D:5      | Reached skill level 1 in Poison Magic
  6928 | D:5      | Reached skill level 5 in Spellcasting
  7145 | D:5      | Learned a level 5 spell: Blade Hands
  7250 | D:5      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 20/59 MP: 14/16
  7535 | D:5      | Reached skill level 6 in Spellcasting
  7700 | D:6      | Noticed Duvessa
  7700 | D:6      | Noticed Dowan
  7714 | D:6      | Slain by Duvessa


Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Unarmed           |   144 |   208 |   162 ||   514
Throw: Stone             |     3 |     3 |       ||     6
       Tomahawk          |       |       |     3 ||     3
 Cast: Beastly Appendage |    24 |    30 |    12 ||    66
       Sticks to Snakes  |       |     7 |       ||     7
       Spider Form       |       |     7 |     9 ||    16
  Use: Scroll            |       |     5 |     5 ||    10
       Potion            |       |       |     2 ||     2
 Stab: Sleeping          |       |     1 |       ||     1
  Eat: Chunk             |     2 |     4 |     3 ||     9
       Fruit             |     1 |       |     3 ||     4
       Meat ration       |       |     1 |       ||     1
       Beef jerky        |       |     1 |       ||     1
       Pizza             |       |     1 |       ||     1
       Bread ration      |       |     1 |       ||     1

[Siegurt]

Spider form doesn't change your movement rate (a long time ago it used to, but no longer)
You were also not hasted when you died, it either ran out, or got cancelled in some form.
Likely Duvessa was hasted.

Also you lost your intrinsic poison resistance when you cast spider form (Duvessa was using a venom rapier)

[duvessa]

heh

[Laraso]

What was the reason that spider form lost its speed and wall clinging abilities? If it was too strong for a level 3 spell, you could have raised the level of it. Now the only similarity between spider form and actual spiders is the venom branded attack.

[Sar]

If it was too strong for a level 3 spell, you could have raised the level of it.

Let's nerf Tm even more!

Now the only similarity between spider form and actual spiders is the venom branded attack.

And poison vulnerability, and high EV... wait, regular spiders don't have high EV!

[duvessa]

well it's not like statue form has much similarity to actual statues

[byrel]

Aside from being permanently kitable, you mean?

[ldf]

Apparently you had stasis and didn't quaff haste because of that.

[WingedEspeon]

Spider form doesn't change your movement rate (a long time ago it used to, but no longer)
You were also not hasted when you died, it either ran out, or got cancelled in some form.
Likely Duvessa was hasted.

Also you lost your intrinsic poison resistance when you cast spider form (Duvessa was using a venom rapier)

It still does if you are playing a spriggan, felid, centaur, or naga. It is only really useful for nagas in this manner though.

[MainiacJoe]

Apparently you had stasis and didn't quaff haste because of that.

What is statis good for in early-game anyway? Here's what the wiki says it prevents:

• Teleportation
• Blinking
• Slow
• Haste
• Paralysis
• Finesse
• Berserk
• Level shifts in the Abyss

Of these, teleportation and blinking are escape options. Finesse and Abyss are not encountered at this stage of the game. Moths of wrath don't appear outside that one Trog vault, so Berserk is never involuntary and only helps the player if timing is chosen well. Haste also only helps the player, indeed I find I use it more frequently to escape than to fight in the early game. Grinder does paralyze, and that's it.

So IMO "Stasis is worse than even "Inacc in the early game.

[byrel]

Stasis is worse than inaccuracy for the entire game outside extremely specific situations (say, fighting Grinder)

[Siegurt]

Also orc wizards slow you, not really feeling like that is worth wearing stasis for though.

And yes, you are correct, I was not precise in my speaking, what spider form used to do is just make you faster than your natural speed, what it does now is make you speed 10, regardless of your natural form's speed.

[tasonir]

The only reason I'd ever wear stasis is if it's cursed. Technically I have used it to pick up loot on a teleport trap once or twice, but it's hardly worth mentioning.

[Hurkyl]

There's the "teleport trap blocking the path in Zot:5", but people never seem to remember you can use stasis for that.

[Laraso]

I mean, it only takes 5 auts to remove an amulet. Yeah, stasis doesn't really do anything in 99% of situations, but it's not very harmful either as long as you remember to take it off when you need to blink or something. Unless you find a stasis amulet that is cursed, I wouldn't exactly say that it's anywhere near as bad as an amulet of inaccuracy, which nobody wears intentionally and is almost always cursed.

[Sar]

Why would you ever want to add 0.5 delay to any situation in which you'd like to teleport or haste, yet alone blink?

[Laraso]

I never said you would, what I'm saying is that I don't think it is nearly as bad as not ever being able to hit anything.

[dynast]

So you were a green draconian, interesting!

[jason0320]

Sadly the strength of Spider Form doesn't make up with it's weakness, even with speed and clinging. But what do you expect from a low level transmutation?

[daggaz]

I like stasis in the early game, myself. Slow is constantly used by orc wizards and it has a very detrimental effect at this stage of the game, and your MR is usually so low it sticks pretty much every time. If you honestly need that 0.5 aut it takes to remove the amulet in case of blink/tele, then you might be doing things wrong... just sayin'. Yes there are occasionally situations where you open a door/walk around a corner and get hit for a bunch of damage and you need to leave NOW, but in those cases you are likely going to die anyhow if you don't have any other options other than tele/blink (if you even have blink), and if you do have other options, they will likely buy you the time you need to remove the amulet. Not getting hit by a teleport trap is also usually a big bonus. Often I take the amulet off if find rage instead, but it depends on the character.

For that matter, stasis is great in lair when a torpid snail gets in view and you cant back out, but admittedly that is a niche situation.

[Sar]

If you honestly need that 0.5 aut it takes to remove the amulet in case of blink/tele, then you might be doing things wrong

If you honestly need blink/tele, you might be doing things wrong. Erasing mistakes is literally the point of scrolls of blinking, and scrolls of tele to an extent.

[Sprucery]

Yes there are occasionally situations where you open a door/walk around a corner and get hit for a bunch of damage and you need to leave NOW, but in those cases you are likely going to die anyhow if you don't have any other options other than tele/blink (if you even have blink)

In my opinion ?blinking practically always saves my life if I need it to. I don't remember the last time I've blinked away from something and still died.

[daggaz]

If you honestly need that 0.5 aut it takes to remove the amulet in case of blink/tele, then you might be doing things wrong

If you honestly need blink/tele, you might be doing things wrong. Erasing mistakes is literally the point of scrolls of blinking, and scrolls of tele to an extent.

As if random very bad luck is a mistake. It IS possible to die pushing 'o'. But otherwise you are correct. I usually have a decent pile of blinking and waaaay too much teleport available by the time I am heading into depths.

[adozu]

duvessa should totally taunt you during fights

"you're a trivial enemy"

[tasonir]

"You wouldn't know optimal play if I hit you over the head with it."

I was talking to someone on tiles chat whose name I have forgotten, might have been sharkman1231, about how he felt about controlled blink being level 8. He liked the change, and said he'd even go ahead and remove scrolls of blinking. You can pry my scrolls of immediately-fix-the-stupid-idiotic-mistake-I-have-made from my cold, dead hands

Honestly if you removed scrolls of blinking I expect a very significant drop in winrates would follow. Probably more so than any other single consumable. Heal wounds/haste/teleport are the other key ones, but imho blinking is a notch above them (individually, not as a group).

[Pollen_Golem]

Yeah if you removed scrolls of blinking altogether all of a sudden it could roil up a fuss among players. I notice devteam likes to do things gradually, in steps, so... how about first making ?blink imprecise (expect minor deviation) and then semi-controlled (choose 1 of 8 directions) and then random, until it is finally not needed and can go.

Wait a second... you are so off-topic out of nowhere, tasonir, why would you even post that here...

[WingedEspeon]

Yeah if you removed scrolls of blinking altogether all of a sudden it could roil up a fuss among players. I notice devteam likes to do things gradually, in steps, so... how about first making ?blink imprecise (expect minor deviation) and then semi-controlled (choose 1 of 8 directions) and then random, until it is finally not needed and can go.

Wait a second... you are so off-topic out of nowhere, tasonir, why would you even post that here...

Please do not remove scroll of blinking. Post lair is already tedious as it is, there is no reason to make it even more tedious.

[byrel]

How do you use scrolls of blinking to remove tedium? Even more importantly, how do you get enough to generate to significantly affect anything aside from a handful of situations?

[WingedEspeon]

scrolls of blinking remove tedium because they allow you to play in a slightly sub optimal manner without significant risk of death in the later part of the game. For example, my SpEn was able to melee Jory because I had scrolls of blinking for when he hit me for over 80 damage with LCS though deflect missals. Without scrolls of blinking I would have had to kite him on the edge of my line of sight to deal with the slight chance of being hit by an 80+ damage LCS. Was it optimal to kite every user of LCS at the edge of my line of sight? Probably. Would it be supper tedious? Yes.

And no, cBlink would not be a reliable replacement for scrolls of blinking for this. Good luck getting the failure rate to 0% especially with the resent cBlink nerf.