Which Are Good Benchmark Monsters for fsim?

[MainiacJoe]

Now that I've learned how to use fsim and &# I use it during my games to help choose between various weapons. I haven't used it yet to choose between armor kits, but I plan to the next time I get a chance to play. I feel, though, that I'm not getting the best information out of it since I'm never quite sure which monsters I ought to test against. I tend to choose the monsters that scare me the most at the given time: adders, orc priests, spiny frogs, black mambas, death yaks, orc warlord, etc.

Please share the monsters you tend to choose for fsim at various points in the game. Thanks!

[byrel]

That sounds about right, but if you want a series of test monsters, something like:
Death yak, manticore, shadow dragon, orb guardian
will probably give you adequate tests.

Orc priest sounds fairly useless, since their damage is primarily mitigated by tactics, not actually how quickly your weapon can kill them.

[Sar]

I check yak for "generic monster", stone giant for "generic tough monster", maybe oof to see how you'll deal with those (good AC, good EV, high threat).

That's for 3 runes, for postend probably some fiend and a reaper.

[WingedEspeon]

OOF is generaly a good target for fsiming as something that resists nearly everything and also has a ton of AC.

[duvessa]

I wouldn't want to use shadow dragon since you have to go to the extra effort of giving your character rN+++ to get useful results.

[neil]

I wouldn't want to use shadow dragon since you have to go to the extra effort of giving your character rN+++ to get useful results.

That was fixed a while ago, at least assuming nothing has re-broken it since then. Players with draining brand are still a problem for fsim results, though; that commit only prevented draining/mutating of players, not monsters.

[MainiacJoe]

After diving mon-data.h I came up with a list of monster, AC, EV, uses_armour. Here then are suggested fsim targets to test weapons for the player attacking, based on the advice above. None of these use armour, in case fsim gives a random kit to monsters during simulations.

  Code:

AC = 0
EV = 0   ghost
EV = 5   hydra
EV = 10   Snorg
EV = 15   giant newt
EV = 20   golden eye
EV = 25   butterfly

AC = 5
EV = 0   deathcap
EV = 5   sphinx
EV = 10   wyvern
EV = 15   giant leech
EV = 20   electric golem

AC = 10
EV = 0   plant
EV = 5   large simulacrum
EV = 10   wraith
EV = 15   Ignacio
EV = 20   Lom Lobon
EV = 25   Mnoleg

AC = 15
EV = 0   bush
EV = 5   snapping turtle (AC = 16)
EV = 6   Ice Fiend
EV = 10   reaper

AC = 20
EV = 0   Roxanne, kraken
EV = 4   iron troll
EV = 6   iron dragon
EV = 10   juggernaut
EV = 20   orb of fire

I don't know if any of these might cause problems similar to the one duvessa suggested for shadow dragons.

[Sar]

What's the point? You just think of the monsters that are giving your character trouble at this part of the game and test on them.

[tasonir]

Would be useful for general advice/comparison of weapon types...ie, if you want to know just how badly short blade damage falls off vs high ac targets, etc.

[Siegurt]

I wouldn't want to use shadow dragon since you have to go to the extra effort of giving your character rN+++ to get useful results.

That was fixed a while ago, at least assuming nothing has re-broken it since then. Players with draining brand are still a problem for fsim results, though; that commit only prevented draining/mutating of players, not monsters.

Note that I submitted a patch a long long time ago to fix "players using draining weapons in fsim" I don't know if it is still relevant though, since I think it was before draining weapons acquired their current form. (The response at the time was pretty much 'eh it's fsim, who cares')

[MainiacJoe]

Would be useful for general advice/comparison of weapon types...ie, if you want to know just how badly short blade damage falls off vs high ac targets, etc.

Yeah this. I don't have the game experience to know this innately yet. Also questions like, is this +3 hand crossbow I just found worth using at zero skill.

[Sar]

is this +3 hand crossbow I just found worth using at zero skill

well, you probably aren't going to test it on Cerebov

[partial]

I wouldn't want to use shadow dragon since you have to go to the extra effort of giving your character rN+++ to get useful results.

That was fixed a while ago, at least assuming nothing has re-broken it since then. Players with draining brand are still a problem for fsim results, though; that commit only prevented draining/mutating of players, not monsters.

adders still poison players in fsim (at least in 16.2 stable idk about trunk)

[MainiacJoe]

is this +3 hand crossbow I just found worth using at zero skill

well, you probably aren't going to test it on Cerebov

No of course not. But I might wonder whether it's better than my skilled sling on high AC targets. You'll have to forgive me, I'm still at the place where I'm learning general principles from fsim and not using it only for specific case studies.

[Sar]

Well, probably just think of an enemy you might want to use it on. Adders if it's D:2? Orc priests? An ogre?

[MainiacJoe]

Well, probably just think of an enemy you might want to use it on. Adders if it's D:2? Orc priests? An ogre?

I get what you're saying, and I suspect we're approaching the same problem from different angles. I'm interested in finding benchmark monsters so I can learn how weapons compare to one another in general. If I have a specific monster in mind, I can look at my previously generated figures for a similar benchmark monster and quickly make a decision. So for adders at AC 1 EV 15, for instance, I'd use the "low-level nimble" benchmark giant newt AC 0 EV 15.

[Sar]

adders have something like 18 EV and yes, it's a silly high EV number for earlygame monsters

[MainiacJoe]

FWIW here are AC and EV values from http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=bl ... mon-data.h. If the monster's name is capitalized, then it has a MONUSE_WEAPONS_ARMOUR tag which may or may not affect fsim results.

  Code:

AC   EV   Monster
-3   10   DRACONIAN MONK
-1   0   DRACONIAN ANNIHILATOR
-1   2   DRACONIAN SCORCHER
-1   6   DRACONIAN SHIFTER
0   0   BLACK SUN
0   0   BLOOD SAINT
0   0   CHAOS CHAMPION
0   0   CORRUPTER
0   0   DRACONIAN CALLER
0   0   ghost
0   0   large abomination
0   0   large skeleton
0   0   skeleton
0   0   small abomination
0   0   small skeleton
0   1   giant eyeball
0   2   jelly
0   2   WARMONGER
0   4   small zombie
0   4   zombie
0   5   battlesphere
0   5   fire vortex
0   5   hydra
0   5   spatial maelstrom
0   5   spatial vortex
0   5   the lernaean hydra
0   5   twister
0   6   IRONHEART PRESERVER
0   8   blink frog
0   8   HAROLD
0   8   prince ribbit
0   9   BLORK THE ORC
0   10   ball lightning
0   10   EDMUND
0   10   FRANCES
0   10   FREDERICK
0   10   giant spore
0   10   glowing shapeshifter
0   10   HELL KNIGHT
0   10   IRONBRAND CONVOKER
0   10   JESSICA
0   10   JOSEPH
0   10   JOSEPHINE
0   10   KIRKE
0   10   LAVA ORC
0   10   lost soul
0   10   LOUISE
0   10   lurking horror
0   10   MARGERY
0   10   MAUD
0   10   moth of wrath
0   10   orb of destruction
0   10   ORC
0   10   RUPERT
0   10   shapeshifter
0   10   snorg
0   10   TERENCE
0   11   ball python
0   11   ERICA
0   11   SIGMUND
0   12   BOGGART
0   12   giant frog
0   12   GOBLIN
0   12   MERFOLK AQUAMANCER
0   12   PSYCHE
0   13   CLOUD MAGE
0   13   DEEP ELF ANNIHILATOR
0   13   DEEP ELF CONJURER
0   13   DEEP ELF DEATH MAGE
0   13   DEEP ELF DEMONOLOGIST
0   13   DEEP ELF FIGHTER
0   13   DEEP ELF MAGE
0   13   DEEP ELF PRIEST
0   13   DEEP ELF SORCERER
0   13   DEEP ELF SUMMONER
0   13   DOWAN
0   13   drowned soul
0   13   EUSTACHIO
0   13   FANNAR
0   13   HELLBINDER
0   13   NECROMANCER
0   13   ORC WARRIOR
0   13   WIZARD
0   14   flayed ghost
0   14   MERFOLK JAVELINEER
0   15   DEEP ELF KNIGHT
0   15   DEEP ELF MASTER ARCHER
0   15   giant newt
0   17   hungry ghost
0   18   MERFOLK IMPALER
0   20   AGNES
0   20   golden eye
0   25   butterfly
0   25   DEEP ELF BLADEMASTER
1   0   ballistomycete
1   0   crawling corpse
1   0   fungus
1   0   hyperactive ballistomycete
1   0   macabre mass
1   0   pillar of salt
1   0   toadstool
1   2   hell lord
1   2   pandemonium lord
1   2   player ghost
1   2   player illusion
1   3   acid blob
1   3   ooze
1   4   slime creature
1   4   two-headed ogre
1   5   brain worm
1   5   OCTOPODE
1   5   worm
1   6   ogre
1   7   OGRE MAGE
1   8   ROBIN
1   9   bog body
1   9   NIKOLA
1   9   NORRIS
1   10   ORC PRIEST
1   10   rat
1   10   WIGLAF
1   12   ORC HIGH PRIEST
1   12   ORC WIZARD
1   12   purgy
1   13   MAURICE
1   13   VAULT GUARD
1   13   VAULT SENTINEL
1   13   VAULT WARDEN
1   14   bat
1   14   fire bat
1   14   giant gecko
1   14   vampire bat
1   15   adder
1   15   electric eel
1   18   OCTOPODE CRUSHER
1   18   SPRIGGAN
1   18   SPRIGGAN DRUID
1   18   SPRIGGAN RIDER
1   20   THE ENCHANTRESS
1   22   SPRIGGAN AIR MAGE
2   1   elephant slug
2   1   gastronok
2   4   death ooze
2   4   giant orange brain
2   7   hippogriff
2   7   sheep
2   8   black bear
2   9   crazy yiuf
2   9   DUVESSA
2   9   GNOLL
2   9   GNOLL SERGEANT
2   9   GNOLL SHAMAN
2   9   GRUM
2   9   hell hog
2   9   hog
2   9   holy swine
2   10   faun
2   10   harpy
2   10   HOBGOBLIN
2   10   necrophage
2   12   DEATH KNIGHT
2   12   DEEP DWARF
2   12   DEMIGOD
2   12   DWARF
2   12   HALFLING
2   12   IJYB
2   12   jackal
2   12   KOBOLD
2   12   natasha
2   12   porcupine
2   12   redback
2   12   satyr
2   12   slave
2   12   TENGU
2   12   VINE STALKER
2   13   hound
2   13   KOBOLD DEMONOLOGIST
2   13   ORC KNIGHT
2   13   quokka
2   13   URUG
2   15   JORGRUN
2   15   sea snake
2   15   shock serpent
2   15   ufetubus
2   15   vampire mosquito
2   15   water moccasin
2   17   lava snake
2   17   TENGU CONJURER
2   17   TENGU REAVER
2   17   TENGU WARRIOR
2   18   air elemental
2   18   felid
2   18   killer bee
2   18   shard shrike
2   18   SPRIGGAN BERSERKER
2   20   sixfirhy
2   22   SOJOBO
2   24   SONJA
3   0   DRACONIAN ZEALOT
3   0   fulminant prism
3   1   eye of draining
3   1   shining eye
3   2   DRACONIAN KNIGHT
3   4   hill giant
3   6   menkaure
3   6   mummy
3   7   CENTAUR
3   7   EROLCHA
3   7   orange demon
3   10   ARACHNE
3   10   DONALD
3   10   FORMICID
3   10   giant cockroach
3   10   MONSTROUS DEMONSPAWN
3   10   orb spider
3   10   ORC WARLORD
3   10   SAINT ROKA
3   10   spider
3   10   trapdoor spider
3   10   troll
3   10   wolf spider
3   10   ynoxinul
3   11   grinder
3   11   shadow imp
3   11   swamp drake
3   12   basilisk
3   12   BIG KOBOLD
3   12   fire drake
3   12   swamp worm
3   12   wind drake
3   13   ANUBIS GUARD
3   13   DEEP ELF HIGH PRIEST
3   13   DEMONSPAWN
3   13   HUMAN
3   13   phantom
3   13   PUTRID DEMONSPAWN
3   13   SHADOW
3   13   sky beast
3   13   TORTUROUS DEMONSPAWN
3   14   CRIMSON IMP
3   14   mana viper
3   14   tarantella
3   15   ELF
3   22   SPRIGGAN DEFENDER
4   4   ASTERION
4   4   YAKTAUR
4   6   griffon
4   7   snaplasher vine
4   7   water elemental
4   7   yak
4   8   CENTAUR WARRIOR
4   8   NESSOS
4   10   crocodile
4   10   ghoul
4   10   ugly thing
4   10   white imp
4   10   WIGHT
4   10   worker ant
4   12   fire elemental
4   12   MERFOLK
4   12   merfolk avatar
4   12   neqoxec
4   12   pikel
4   12   SIREN
4   12   warg
4   13   water nymph
4   14   raiju
4   15   black mamba
4   15   wolf
4   16   anaconda
4   18   insubstantial wisp
5   0   deathcap
5   0   wandering mushroom
5   3   cyclops
5   5   sphinx
5   5   tentacled monstrosity
5   5   tentacled starspawn
5   5   YAKTAUR CAPTAIN
5   7   green death
5   7   manticore
5   7   MINOTAUR
5   7   SALAMANDER
5   7   SALAMANDER MYSTIC
5   7   tentacle
5   7   tentacle segment
5   9   alligator
5   9   iguana
5   9   smoke demon
5   10   azure jelly
5   10   hellion
5   10   ice beast
5   10   mottled dragon
5   10   SALAMANDER STORMCALLER
5   10   scorpion
5   10   spectral weapon
5   10   steam dragon
5   10   thrashing horror
5   10   unseen horror
5   10   wyvern
5   11   river rat
5   12   BALRUG
5   12   ORC SORCERER
5   14   hell beast
5   14   wasp
5   15   giant leech
5   15   SALAMANDER FIREBRAND
5   15   silent spectre
5   17   quasit
5   18   ILSUIW
5   20   electric golem
6   0   snaplasher vine segment
6   6   ancient zyme
6   8   IRON IMP
6   9   GUARDIAN MUMMY
6   9   spiny frog
6   10   deep troll
6   10   deep troll shaman
6   10   GREATER NAGA
6   10   NAGA
6   10   NAGA MAGE
6   10   NAGA RITUALIST
6   10   NAGA SHARPSHOOTER
6   10   NAGA WARRIOR
6   10   VASHNIA
6   10   very ugly thing
6   12   dryad
6   12   GELID DEMONSPAWN
6   12   INFERNAL DEMONSPAWN
6   12   jumping spider
6   13   hell hound
6   14   death drake
6   14   guardian serpent
6   14   RAKSHASA
6   16   bennu
7   7   shadow wraith
7   7   swamp dragon
7   8   komodo dragon
7   8   polar bear
7   10   hell rat
7   10   shadow
7   12   chaos spawn
7   12   shadow demon
7   13   entropy weaver
7   13   RED DEVIL
7   14   death scarab
7   14   hornet
8   1   torpor snail
8   2   elephant
8   2   starspawn tentacle
8   2   starspawn tentacle segment
8   4   FIRE GIANT
8   4   the royal jelly
8   5   large zombie
8   5   mutant beast
8   5   spectral thing
8   5   toenail golem
8   6   lindwurm
8   7   MUMMY PRIEST
8   8   elemental wellspring
8   10   ghost moth
8   10   hellwing
8   10   PURPLE DRACONIAN
8   10   soldier ant
8   12   revenant
8   18   aizul
8   18   caustic shrike
9   3   FROST GIANT
9   4   ettin
9   5   apis
9   5   death yak
9   6   fire crab
9   6   ghost crab
9   6   USHABTI
9   9   thorn hunter
9   10   BLACK DRACONIAN
9   10   GREEN DRACONIAN
9   10   MOTTLED DRACONIAN
9   10   RED DRACONIAN
9   10   WHITE DRACONIAN
9   10   YELLOW DRACONIAN
9   11   NERGALLE
9   14   PALE DRACONIAN
10   0   briar patch
10   0   burning bush
10   0   oklob plant
10   0   oklob sapling
10   0   plant
10   0   starcursed mass
10   1   dissolution
10   2   catoblepas
10   2   guardian golem
10   3   great orb of eyes
10   3   polyphemus
10   3   titan
10   4   simulacrum
10   4   small simulacrum
10   5   AZRAEL
10   5   EFREET
10   5   large simulacrum
10   6   demonic crawler
10   6   GREATER MUMMY
10   6   KHUFU
10   8   fire dragon
10   8   ice dragon
10   8   rust devil
10   10   blizzard demon
10   10   gloorx vloq
10   10   jiangshi
10   10   lich
10   10   ophan
10   10   queen bee
10   10   spellforged servitor
10   10   VAMPIRE
10   10   VAMPIRE KNIGHT
10   10   VAMPIRE MAGE
10   10   wraith
10   10   wretched star
10   11   draconian
10   12   lorocyproca
10   12   sun demon
10   13   DAEVA
10   14   MARA
10   15   death cob
10   15   executioner
10   15   ignacio
10   15   JORY
10   15   killer klown
10   15   pearl dragon
10   15   quicksilver dragon
10   17   flying skull
10   20   ANGEL
10   20   CHERUB
10   20   dancing weapon
10   20   lom lobon
10   20   profane servitor
10   20   SERAPH
10   25   mnoleg
10   30   ERESHKIGAL
11   6   apocalypse crab
11   10   cacodemon
12   1   diamond obelisk
12   1   eye of devastation
12   1   ice statue
12   1   obsidian statue
12   1   orange crystal statue
12   1   statue
12   2   stone giant
12   4   worldbinder
12   10   BORIS
12   10   deep troll earth mage
12   10   eidolon
12   10   freezing wraith
12   10   ice devil
12   10   phantasmal warrior
12   12   tormentor
13   0   eldritch tentacle
13   0   eldritch tentacle segment
13   2   dire elephant
13   3   lightning spire
13   3   shambling mangrove
13   10   hellephant
13   10   nellie
13   10   storm dragon
13   13   orb guardian
14   2   chuck
14   3   queen ant
14   4   earth elemental
14   7   molten gargoyle
14   10   blue devil
15   0   block of ice
15   0   bush
15   3   iron golem
15   6   brimstone fiend
15   6   geryon
15   6   ice fiend
15   6   shadow fiend
15   7   golden dragon
15   7   xtahua
15   10   ANCIENT CHAMPION
15   10   reaper
15   10   shadow dragon
15   10   SKELETAL WARRIOR
15   28   MENNAS
16   5   snapping turtle
16   10   GREY DRACONIAN
16   12   the serpent of hell
16   12   the serpent of hell
18   2   the iron giant
18   6   gargoyle
18   10   soul eater
19   1   alligator snapping turtle
20   0   kraken
20   0   roxanne
20   2   boulder beetle
20   2   iron elemental
20   4   bone dragon
20   4   iron troll
20   4   MOON TROLL
20   6   iron dragon
20   10   ancient lich
20   10   juggernaut
20   12   emperor scorpion
20   12   the serpent of hell
20   20   orb of fire
22   0   crystal guardian
22   4   war gargoyle
25   1   curse toe
25   3   hell sentinel
28   4   ANTAEUS
30   7   ASMODEUS
30   8   CEREBOV
30   8   the serpent of hell
30   10   murray
30   10   TIAMAT
35   3   curse skull
40   3   DISPATER

[Sar]

Sonja has how much EV???

[MainiacJoe]

Sonja has how much EV???

Yeah, 24 EV:

  Code:

{
    MONS_SONJA, 'K', RED, "Sonja",
    M_UNIQUE | M_WARM_BLOOD | M_SPEAKS | M_SPEAKS | M_FEMALE,
    MR_NO_FLAGS,
    40, MONS_KOBOLD, MONS_KOBOLD, MH_NATURAL, 10,
    { {AT_HIT, AF_PLAIN, 9}, {AT_HIT, AF_PLAIN, 5}, {AT_HIT, AF_PLAIN, 5},
       AT_NO_ATK },
    { 6, 0, 0, 30 },
// this next line is AC, EV, other stuff
    2, 24, MST_SONJA, CE_NOXIOUS, S_SHOUT,
    I_HUMAN, HT_LAND, 14, DEFAULT_ENERGY,
    MONUSE_WEAPONS_ARMOUR, SIZE_SMALL, MON_SHAPE_HUMANOID
},


[Sprucery]

Sonja has how much EV???

  Code:

++++--

[Hurkyl]

Sonja has how much EV???

Don't look at Mennas.

[MainiacJoe]

These prompted me to discover that there are lots of single target evocables but relatively few AOE ones.

[daggaz]

adders have something like 18 EV and yes, it's a silly high EV number for earlygame monsters

Considering they are one of the most deadly monsters in the game, it makes it worth it to immediately memorize and use magic dart, should you be so lucky to find an early book drop with that spell.