Maces&Flails and Shields

[ydeve]

I have a normal-sized character who ended up using maces&flails. Generally speaking, do you usually use shields with maces since the 2H mace isn't as good as other 2H weapons? Do you do better with a demon whip or a great mace? (Normal sized species, no GSC)

[Wahaha]

I always use a great mace.

[tabstorm]

"Should I use a shield when I can use a 2h, if..."
Almost always no.

[mopl]

"Should I use a shield when I can use a 2h, if I'm a monstruous demonspawn with +10 slaying"

[daggaz]

I'll go with shields IF I find an evening-star before I get too far past Lair. It does good fast damage, if branded and +9 is more than enough for end-game, you only need 14 skill, and hey you can have a shield which is also useful in itself for various reasons.

Otherwise, by the time you are tearing up Orc, you will definitely find a dire flail and a great mace and you might as well go for the oomph.

[njvack]

Early demon whip is also good.

[duvessa]

If your character wants to do damage with a weapon, then the answer to "should I use a shield?" is, in probably 99% of cases, the same as the answer to "is your most damaging weapon one-handed?"

[WingedEspeon]

If your character wants to do damage with a weapon, then the answer to "should I use a shield?" is, in probably 99% of cases, the same as the answer to "is your most damaging weapon one-handed?"

This helped me choose shields in a resent game I had (My most damaging option was one handed with a randart buckler with +2 slaying)

[tasonir]

There are good one handed weapons that are worth going shields with - demon whips with additive brands, eveningstars/double swords, etc. It's a short list, but it exists. The problem is none of them are common early on - you probably won't find them before you need to make a decision on a weapon. So you generally want to go 2h and ignore shields because that's what you actually have, and not dying right now is the first priority.

I tend to sidestep this issue with unarmed, but unarmed is bad and don't do that.

[Aethrus]

Shields are great. Demon whips are a particularly good one-hander. The precise answer to this question depends as well on your equipment, aptitudes, artefacts, and further build details, where you need to spend experience...

[partial]

90% of the time I go 2H

but don't think that an elec/pain dwhip or a holy scourge won't be more than enough to ascend

[Laraso]

in probably 99% of cases, the same as the answer to "is your most damaging weapon one-handed?"

I would assume the other 1% is when you're playing a Formicid.

[daggaz]

Why would you ever play a formicid they are clearly sub-optimal.

[radinms]

clearly playing Formicid is one of the most optimal play style in DCSS

[duvessa]

in probably 99% of cases, the same as the answer to "is your most damaging weapon one-handed?"

I would assume the other 1% is when you're playing a Formicid.

If you're playing a formicid then all weapons are one-handed, so it still falls into that case. I was more thinking of stuff like unarmed combat, or having a one-handed weapon that's reasonably close to your best two-handed weapon together with a randart buckler with dex+10 or something.

[radinms]

if you want to win without raising any skill to 13, you should use one-handed weapon.
if you want to win without raising any skill to 10, you should choose Troll.

[Lasty]

duvessa's rule of thumb is a pretty decent one, but I would generally advocate for eveningstar over great sword (as one example), which duvessa's rule doesn't. Most weapon categories have two really good one-handers: one a "demon" weapon that's fast and has moderate damage, and one "good one-hander" that does nearly as much damage as a two-handed weapon for a relatively modest skill investment. Generally weapons in these classes along with a shield compete reasonably well with a good two-handed weapon, though the demon ones in particular tend to be a bit lacking against targets their brand doesn't affect.

[WingedEspeon]

duvessa's rule of thumb is a pretty decent one, but I would generally advocate for eveningstar over great sword (as one example), which duvessa's rule doesn't. Most weapon categories have two really good one-handers: one a "demon" weapon that's fast and has moderate damage, and one "good one-hander" that does nearly as much damage as a two-handed weapon for a relatively modest skill investment. Generally weapons in these classes along with a shield compete reasonably well with a good two-handed weapon, though the demon ones in particular tend to be a bit lacking against targets their brand doesn't affect.

I fsimmed a +9 demon blade vs a +9 great sword vs an OOF at 27 fighting and dodging (both weapons unbranded to simulate a brand that doesn't affect the OOF and found that the demon blade did nearly as much damage. ( I had a randart slay+2 buckler in the game the tests were for so I checked and the +11 demon blade slightly outdammaged the +9 greatsword) as the OOF is a high AC target that should skew the results to favor the lower higher base damage over your normal opponents. Now that facts that the character had significantly higher dex than str, demon blades are slower and higher base damage than demon whips, and that great swords are weaker than great maces may skew the results.

In short I don't think that demon weapons come up particularly lacking compared VS high AC targets that their brand doesn't affect

[duvessa]

duvessa's rule of thumb is a pretty decent one, but I would generally advocate for eveningstar over great sword (as one example), which duvessa's rule doesn't.

Well first I'll assume you mean "double sword" and not "eveningstar" because the idea that your long blades and maces skill are both the same and both near 15 is ridiculous.
How did you find a double sword with identical enchantment/brand to your best two-handed weapon, which also happens to be a great sword?
I think that this is a pretty small fraction of that 1% of cases, if anything.

[Lasty]

Well first I'll assume you mean "double sword" and not "eveningstar" because the idea that your long blades and maces skill are both the same and both near 15 is ridiculous.
How did you find a double sword with identical enchantment/brand to your best two-handed weapon, which also happens to be a great sword?
I think that this is a pretty small fraction of that 1% of cases, if anything.

Yeah, good point. I tend to forget that double swords exist because they're vanishingly rare. Oddly I have nowhere near the same trouble finding an eveningstar, but that might just be strange luck.

As for enchantment, a pretty high proportion of these good one-handers spawn with brands and enchantment, since they mostly come from acquirement or other biased generation scenarios. Finding such a weapon certainly happens in the minority of my games, but it's significantly more than 1%. Again, it's possible that this is unusual, but based on the games I watch and get told about, I doubt it.