Is there ever a good time to pick Sif Muna?

[Laraso]

Like, if you're a Conjurer who's offensive power relies mostly in blasting things with spells, why would you ever choose Sif over Vehumet? Actually, scratch that, why would you ever pick Sif over any other god, on any character?

Literally the only times it actually seems somewhat viable for me to pick Sif, is when I'm playing as a mummy (hungerless channeling is great, but then disappointment overwhelms you once you remember that you're a mummy), a summoner (maybe I'm just extraordinarily unlucky, but I can never seem to find any spell books that actually have decent summons for mid/late game, Sif usually fixes that, still a bad reason to pick her though), or a mummy summoner (lol). But even in those situations, when compared with other gods, Sif looks exceptionally mediocre.

A list of game changing abilities that Sif grants you:
Channeling

And that's pretty much it. Spell books are nice but you don't actually start getting them until after you hit Lair, and I can only think of one time that I've actually found the amnesia ability useful. Miscast protection sounds nice, but even with protection it still isn't a good idea to be casting spells that are probable to fail, so it ends up being irrelevant in most instances.

When I first started playing Crawl, I always thought that Sif was the coolest god. "Infinite mana and every spell in the game! There can be no better magic god!", I thought. Now I rarely ever bother to take Sif, even though I want to like her.

Am I missing something here? Is there something I'm just not getting about Sif?

[Sar]

why would you ever choose Sif over Vehumet

early altar

[Laraso]

Well, early on you don't want to be investing very much XP into invocations so the channeling is a little on the weak side, and you don't start getting the other benefits until the early game is pretty much over with. It feels to me as if it's only marginally better than not having a god at all. In most cases I would still feel like it would be a better decision to wait a few more floors to find something better.

[WingedEspeon]

IMO sif is probably pretty good on a felid conjurer because you can kite and channel. Personally I like dith on cojurers because shadow shards for a magic dart deal about as much damage as stone arrow.

[KoboldLord]

If you can compensate for the fact that it is awful and makes you wish for the sweet release of death, channeling is really strong. It is Sif Muna's only relevant power, but it is a doozy of a power even if it is a miserable chore to actually use that power. As long as you have chunks, you can basically ignore mp costs of spells, and your only restriction for staying in the fight is your hp. Compare to Vehumet, who only refunds a few mp when you actually accomplish something with that mp, rather than just giving you another hit every time you hit aa like you're in a skinner box.

[bcadren]

My last Sif win (and only online Sif win) was a troll that took it for the free book acquirements, primarily. Sif is pretty great for hybrids, because basically guaranteed HASTE, STATUE FORM, DEFLECT MISSILES, REGEN, PHASE SHIFT, etc. Course on that kind of character it's perfectly reasonable to then leave Sif once you get the books you want for...Vehu, Makh, TSO, whatever. (just keep Sif's wrath in mind). Channeling is in theory better than a Staff of Energy...but in practicality most character willing to do extended would be better served to not use channeling much and use the staff once they find it (in order to train Evo, which can also be used for CBoEs, Rings of +/* Tele, etc.)

[tabstorm]

If you want to play a summoner that does not use melee, or a conjurer and you don't want to use Vehumet or any other god. Otherwise no.

[duvessa]

IMO sif is pretty much always better than veh for winning, simply because channeling is better than vehumet's passives for at least the first few stars of piety (it's impossible for early veh gifts to be useful to any character that would remotely want either god). Vehumet is better for ziggurats and realtime though. Neither god is ever going to be an optimal choice as long as gods like fedhas exist.

Compare to Vehumet, who only refunds a few mp when you actually accomplish something with that mp, rather than just giving you another hit every time you hit aa like you're in a skinner box.

That is literally the opposite of what a Skinner box does

[Hurkyl]

And that's pretty much it. Spell books are nice but you don't actually start getting them until after you hit Lair,

Most of the game is after lair. Some spells are really good, and Sif ensures you don't go without. Sure you might have gotten lucky and gotten them anyways, but with Sif you don't need luck. You could make do without, but with Sif you don't have to.

and I can only think of one time that I've actually found the amnesia ability useful.

Then you don't use enough spells (or overtrain spellcasting). Amnesia on demand means you can fill up your spell slots with things that are only occasionally useful, when otherwise you would normally spell slots are too valuable and you would ignore the spell entirely.

Miscast protection sounds nice, but even with protection it still isn't a good idea to be casting spells that are probable to fail, so it ends up being irrelevant in most instances.

Yes it is. Situations where a spell is good enough you can afford to fizzle it once or twice are not all that rare. And then there are the times you are casting the spell in preparation for battle rather than in battle, so all that matters is that you can cast it eventually.

The two most extreme cases that come to mind are: if I plan to use Necromutation in extended (which is a better-than-usual idea with Sif due to channeling), it's fine to use even with miscast rates of 50% or more; my air mages tend to start casting Tornado when the miscast rates are still in the 30%-50% range -- in fact, more often than not I'll kill the TRJ when my miscast rates are around 40%, with wizardry.

(in fact, amnesia shines when I do that TRJ thing, because I usually have to forget a few spells to make room for Tornado and Airstrike and whichever, and then when I'm done with slime, I forget those to make room for my current primary spellset)

[partial]

forgot how awesome permamnesia is

[archaeo]

yeah channeling isn't a great mechanic, but I find Sif to make for an easier game than Veh, personally, with any character casting magic.

I feel like there should be some way to smoosh the features of Veh and Sif together to get a single good magic god that does what they do, because the difference between them isn't an interesting choice to me. Ideally, if we have multiple "magic gods," the difference between them should be notable and interesting instead of marginal. I have absolutely no clue how you make that happen, tho.

[radinms]

Don't worship Sif. She is underpowered.

[byrel]

I second the 'hybrid' category. If you're running a hybrid build starting with a book background (say VM, FE, or IE) you can take Sif and get early piety, as you're still bringing your book online. Then Sif serves as a way to avoid those annoying out-of-mana deaths to the last killer bee, and will eventually give you most of the charms and tloc spells you want. You won't actually get that many gifts, as you'll be training melee and defenses a lot, but it's still useful. On top of that, miscast protection is most useful for buff spells, and lets you stop training charms when Haste gets to 50%, because you're casting it early anyhow.

Sif beats Veh all hollow for a hybrid. I don't think it beats Oka really though... but it does give you different bonuses.

[Laraso]

Vehumet gives you really good wizardry bonuses, your big spells come online way sooner (that's actually huge, especially for races with poor aptitudes) and you're still almost guaranteed to get at least one great end game spell for your character via Vehumet gifts. Vehumet's passive mana regen is actually better than channeling if you're capable of killing things fast enough (i.e. firestorm often gives you MP for casting it, and it's going to be much easier to cast since you're worshiping Vehumet. The best part is that you're not wasting turns channeling.). You also still get miscast protection on conjuration spells with Vehumet I believe, but I'm not 100% sure on that part. I'd have to check. And that range bonus is nothing to laugh at, especially with spells such as crystal spear and whatnot.

Sif works for hybrid characters, but if I'm a hybrid I'd still much rather go with someone else, like maybe Fedhas or Dith, or if I melee a lot (such as a transmuter) I'd just go ahead and go with Okawaru or Makhleb, which in my opinion both offer a lot more than Sif even for someone who casts spells.

[Hurkyl]

You say "spells" like it's synonymous with the specific type of spell that spends MP to directly damage your enemies. There are lots of other spells too.

According to wiki, the only form of miscast protection that Vehumet gives is through reducing miscast rates. Not miscasting is better than miscasting with protection, of course, but Veh doesn't completely eliminate your miscast rates.

[Laraso]

Well, if you're in the position to consider taking Vehumet, I would think conjurations are implied when "spells" are mentioned.

[Magipi]

IMO sif is pretty much always better than veh for winning, simply because channeling is better than vehumet's passives for at least the first few stars of piety (it's impossible for early veh gifts to be useful to any character that would remotely want either god).

What early gifts are we talking about here? For the first few gifts this is true, but then Veh gives you stuff like fireball and bolt spells, and and at that point Sif still gives nothing. Unless the system changed recently.

channeling is really strong. It is Sif Muna's only relevant power, but it is a doozy of a power even if it is a miserable chore to actually use that power. As long as you have chunks, you can basically ignore mp costs of spells, and your only restriction for staying in the fight is your hp. Compare to Vehumet, who only refunds a few mp when you actually accomplish something with that mp, rather than just giving you another hit every time you hit aa

Sif is better in the specific case of fighting a single opponent who has so many HPs that your full MP is not enough. There are a few examples of this, like fighting Cerebov with fire magic and no relevant weapon. In the overwhelming majority of cases though, Vehumet is much better than Sif.

[dynast]

I believe that unless you are playing a blasting conjurer Sif is always the best choice.

[MainiacJoe]

My problem with Sif is that I still need early game help from my god to get to Lair.

[stoneychips]

I've only played spriggan a few times (usually enchanter), but Sif seemed like a fairly natural choice for them to me?

High spell power aptitude, low conjurations aptitude, but quite a few schools of magic they can potentially use.

And they can only get so much punch out of Oka with the few armor slots and limited weapon choices. It's relatively likely one will land a fairly strong short blade, for example, quite early without godly assistance.

Perhaps there are some benefits available from other deities for them (Fedhas is still outside my experience but don't see why that would dominate casters more than others necessarily?) ... But I went along quite happily with Sif into Depths, at least.

[Sojiro]

Nemelex. Nemelex is extraordinary with Spriggans. Especially now that weight is gone (or that might just be me and my pack rat instincts).

But it's true they get along well with Sif. Their speed means they don't need much help until you start getting books, and their aptitudes means they have lots of opportunities.

[gammafunk]

IMO sif is pretty much always better than veh for winning, simply because channeling is better than vehumet's passives for at least the first few stars of piety (it's impossible for early veh gifts to be useful to any character that would remotely want either god).

What early gifts are we talking about here? For the first few gifts this is true, but then Veh gives you stuff like fireball and bolt spells, and and at that point Sif still gives nothing. Unless the system changed recently.

That's talking about the first few stars of piety, just like it says. Early Veh gifts don't matter for any starting book. Sif can take a long time to get to champion, depending on how much XP you're putting into magical schools. If you're putting 50%+ into magic you'll get to champion at some point between shortly before lair until late lair, and you might indeed get a useful Vehumet gift before then, but there really isn't a starting book that can't clear lair anyhow.

Sif is better in the specific case of fighting a single opponent who has so many HPs that your full MP is not enough. There are a few examples of this, like fighting Cerebov with fire magic and no relevant weapon. In the overwhelming majority of cases though, Vehumet is much better than Sif.

This is just false. There are many, many instances (especially in the early game, but also later on) where spending up to a few turns regaining MP while a monster closes in is better than just running around to regen mp, wishing you could kill something so you could cast a spell. It doesn't at all have to be an enemy you couldn't blast from full MP, just one that comes at the right time.

[Laraso]

Meh... I've tried her with a couple of characters recently and I guess my biggest problem was I never raised invocations up high enough... Still, even if channeling is strong, I wish there was something more to Sif than just being "the channeling god". Spell book gifts are nice but they hardly ever seem to contain spells that I actually want or need, I could have level 15 Conjuration, Fire Magic, and Charms and I'm still getting books that have Lightning Bolt and Cure Poison. And I still haven't found the amnesia ability to be of any real use, almost all spells I want to forget in a normal game can be dealt with using amnesia scrolls, there's plenty to go around for most characters.

[Hurkyl]

The trick to amnesia is to want more spells than you want in a normal game.

[bcadren]

I still say Sif Muna is a god you take for the gifts. Guaranteed Haste, etc. is indispensable to have before extended. Still good god to take, then leave (for say Vehumet, TSO, Dith, etc.)

[Avigdore]

My problem with Vehumet is that I've spent multiple games getting the 6-star spells and not getting anything I can use. Maybe it's changed recently, but my mummies can't really branch out in spell selection much. If I don't get the spells that I Need...I'm gonna end up overwhelmed. My blaster wins are almost all Sif.

[jason0320]

Sif is decent for low level spellcasters or hybrids. Guaranteed spellbooks, protection from miscast, nearly free channeling and free scrolls of amnesia are really helpful in the early game but becomes lackluster when you get regen/sublimation for mana, high int and skill levels and the desired spells. Veh in comparison is too desirable for spellcasters, I will switch to Veh just for the range increase. I even take ditching Sif for a habit when I play spellcasting builds.. Sif need to be tweak like the old Veh treatment to be useful, poor lady Sif.

[archaeo]

I still say Sif Muna is a god you take for the gifts. Guaranteed Haste, etc. is indispensable to have before extended. Still good god to take, then leave (for say Vehumet, TSO, Dith, etc.)

Sorry, bcadren, but every sentence here is wrong:

1) Every "magic god" gives you sufficient spells to win the game. Don't take a magic god for the gifts, select which set of powers make the game more fun for you.

2) There's never really a need for "guaranteed spells" outside of a speedrun, since basically every character can cobble together a winning strategy using floor drops. Haste is especially not a big concern, since most characters (again, other than in a speedrun) have access to plenty of it via consumables.

3) Leaving Sif is a terrible idea, given that Sif wrath is really quite bad, and leaving Sif for Veh or Dith is an enormous waste of time. Sif is a totally reasonable god to take through extended, since having infinite MP never stops being good.

[Sar]

Every "magic god" gives you sufficient spells to win the game

this sentence is really funny in context of Crawl

Spoiler: show

you don't need any spells to win

[archaeo]

sure Sar, but if you want to be a dude who kills most other dudes with spells, Sif, Kiku, and Veh (and I guess Gozag kinda) make it a lot easier and it turns out lots of people really do like to kill lots of dudes with spells.

[Sar]

Kiku? I guess if you Agony-Pain a lot it can work, or if Kiku gifts you bolt of draining.

[partial]

The trick to amnesia is to want more spells than you want in a normal game.

So every single game of mine

[stoneychips]

As a pretty amateur caster, I've been frustrated by Veh more often than not. The range is nice, but unless you have massive Spellcasting already it's easy to feel like the gift spells are impossible choices around Lair. I would end up getting spells in schools not yet trained, or giving up spells I wanted to get slots for high level stuff I would use only later. Also as has been mentioned, there's little promise of ultimately getting the spell setup you might prefer.

I also seem to recall having had a few games where spellbooks were in rather short supply, except for expensive shops.

Sif more often solves these problems for me before I've reached the deep end of Vaults/Depths. At least in a 3-rune run, that is substantial. With the caveat that I have not actually played too many casters that far overall, Sif still feels much more comfortable to me.

[kuniqs]

To the OP:

Sif gives you abilities that are kinda mediocre, but they are guaranteed to work.

The most Sif Muna-fit character is a lightly armoured spellcaster who wants to rely almost exclusive on spells to win. Deep elves work for Sif, as their great magic apts and horrible strength essentialy locks them in that role. Felids work great too, since they can use the channeling ability pretty much for free, and they're dependant on spells anyway.

Because Sif gives you spells late, you should pick a caster background with strong damage-dealing spells. Any elementalist works, and conjurer especially.

You win battles through attrition. Channeling allows you to cast any non-killdude crowd-control spell during battle without worrying about running out of mana. It works well with all those support spells you get.

You should train stealth, too, to have the ability to pick your battles and channel/eat in safety.

Differences from Vehumet (in Sif's favor) are:
- You do not need to have free spell slots for Sif gifts
- You can customize your spell set for the particular branch
- You do not need to melee when you run out of mp
- You do not need to sacrifice weapon slot to channel
- You do not need to worry about mutations or banishment when miscasting high-level spells

[Baldu3]

I find sif most fun to experiment with the billion of spells and combo them in interesting and unoptimal ways. Ashe though is for winning, all the spells at half the xp cost is something different.

[Tressol]

When I first started, I played a lot of Sif characters... And I do agree that Sif lacks the obvious "power" of other gods. Even Ash is a pretty amazing "caster god," (as mentioned above... Ninja'd) giving a similar character much earlier reliable casting of spells as well as foreknowledge of threats and, yes, more damage.

I think that Sif is designed for the true "wizard" type character who wants to take a bunch of magic schools, though as has been mentioned a hybrid can also work. Branching into Hexes a bit, we can see what this god is bringing to the table; Infinite Mana + Mass Confusion can solve pretty much any problem that isn't immune to hexes, and even if you don't want to stab the befuddled masses (you're a "pure caster"), your less-powerful conjurations (Clouds work well with less-than-total spellpower, summons are an option as well...) are still going to whittle down your disabled foes. In fact, mass confusion + Fulminant Prism + Infinite Mana just sounds hilarious.

Amnesia scrolls are plentiful but it is a powerful ability. With Sif, you should be optimizing your spell list for whatever branch (or problematic unique) you are about to face. Judicious use of Clouds early on can literally cause enemies to have no chance against you; in Lair, you can use Conjure Flame and Summon Imp (or Butterflies, if Sif gave you that already) to create an "oven" out of a hallway and giggle as anything burlier than a yak immolates itself trying to get at you. Weaker foes can be held at bay with Conjure Flame literally forever while you prod them to death with, well, anything at all. Miscast protection (which eventually becomes total, if I am not mistaken) can be a very big deal - not just Haste and other charms, but things like Freezing/Poison Cloud, which typically only need one or two casts to affect the entire battlefield, can be brought down to, say, a 24% failure rate with minimal investment on a pure caster due to good int and (presumably) spell aptitudes.

The god of destructive magic helps you more with a strictly "blowing guys up," style though, which I don't think is a problem.

[asdu]

there really isn't a starting book that can't clear lair anyhow.

VM

[Sar]

Venom Bolt.

[The Ferret]

Book of Conjurations can certainly clear Lair and beyond.

Fulminant Prism is really good once you figure out how to use it (try a SpCj).

[bcadren]

Kiku? I guess if you Agony-Pain a lot it can work, or if Kiku gifts you bolt of draining.

My online kiku win was all...DDoor and Simulacrum in the end. Did full extended relying heavily on Corpse Drop + Simulacrum to kill Pan/Hell Lords.

[Hurricos]

If you get Wild Magic of any rank, Sif becomes more appealing.

Specifically, if you get WM3, you can hit max spellpower with maxed schools, two enhancers and 20 int, and Sif overcomes the (frequent) miscasts easily. I'm seeing a TrWz^Sif with 80% necromutation and 10% Shatter, WM3, 30 Int, archmagi and |wiz gutting Tomb, tbqh.

But I mean... Sif is good for guarantees. Veh is known to give shitty gifts, and for casters Ashenzari is a gamble (and Kiku somewhat limited).

[Sar]

@bcarden: well, for some reason I didn't include ally-making spells in "killing dude with spells" when I thought about it.

[Elystan]

Vehumet early gifts are definitely relevant. You're a VM and you meet a pack of wights? Hooray sandblast/magic missile/flame tongue etc. You're a FE and you meet a crimson imp? Yay sandblast/magic missile/freeze/shock etc. Super useful.

[Gorgondantess]

Personally, I'm a great fan of Sif, particularly if I'm planning on going Necromutation (with Sif you're more or less guaranteed to get it by the time you can actually cast it - only god who can do that other than Kiku). Secondly, I've played plenty of games where there's That One Spell that Just Won't Drop - ran a HEAE once where Haste just didn't drop, even once I hit Zot. Recently I played a thaumaturge who really wanted Dragon Call, and I made it to 9 runes and 44 levels of Ziggurat without that dropping.

Most importantly, though, you just have to abuse the hell out of her powers. As has been said before, you can tailor your spell selection for every single branch, which can be incredibly useful in the midgame (particularly for the lair branches). You can literally cast Delayed Fireball, amnesia it, and then have that around until you actually need to use it- then you just shuffle it back in, cast, and shuffle it out. Keep stuff like a book of Geomancy around to Memorize-unmemorize LRD, just on those rare instances you need to crack something that's not a rock wall - not too long ago I was in Pan without a wand of disintegration or anything, and I ran into a vault with a ton of eyes of draining within cages of iron bars. That was a lifesaver. And if you can't think of a use for all those extra free spell levels, you're honestly not thinking hard enough.
Sure, SIf lacks the raw power of a lot of the other gods, but she's a thinking man's god, and has always been one of my favorites.