The Tavern

How the logic works behind ?acq ? It is somehow depends on the items seen and skill training, but..

On a Fo with 10 in Staves and 14.5 in Polearms it pulled a triple randart crossbow. It is cool and nice and I would love it but there are exactly 0 points in xBows skill. And with a +3 glaive on hands I want to pull something better.

I know it is "optimal" to tap it asap, but there are a lot of games you have a nice armour, ok jewellery set, and even good enough weapon to run through several more levels or even 3 rune, and want to improve your life a bit by pulling a better acquirement.

Would it help to train more skill levels o get closer to min delay? Or buy a regular top tier weapon of your weapon type from the shop to increase a chance to get a randart? Or any other tricks?

Weapon if you don't have a viable enchant target
Otherwise wands if you don't have haste/heal/teleport
Otherwise armor

Don't take anything different 99% of the time.

That's literally exactly what I do.

To OP: Just do it immediately and yes it is based somewhat on skills. If you're have a super good run you might want to delay going for wands so you have a higher chance of a yellow wand.

Unfortunately, acquirement just flops about 30% of the time and ignores your skills. Looks like you had a bad day :/

tabstorm wrote:Weapon if you don't have a viable enchant target
Otherwise wands if you don't have haste/heal/teleport
Otherwise armor

Don't take anything different 99% of the time.

Some corner cases worth to mention from my experience:
- if you have already good weapon and big wands - or you don't strictly needs right now, e.g. you've lots of pots - ?acq staff is very good for Be because will give a rod and mostly rods are very good. It's also good for a magic user who care about spellpower (e.g. conjurer) as it has good probability to give an enhancer staff - and missing that you still most probably get a useful one.

- I kinda prefer jewellery over armour, as they're both shit anyway and I don't think I ever equipped something got by ?acq

- for fedhas you have ?acq fruit which can be very good

n.b. that other 1% includes fruit acq with fedhas and the special cases you're likely to see with Trog. Staff and book acquirement with 0 magic skills trained tends to lead to rods and manuals, respectively, both of which might be better choices for midgame Trog bros who have haste/HW sticks and good armour.

From what I remember, casters who are looking to acquire a staff should take a look at their trained skills; if you want |energy, having the highest skill be spellcasting is apparently a good idea. Armour and wands should come before staves for most normalcrawl characters though.

Once again, of course, I write a post and nago gets in before me, dang.

Sry man! I'll add another one to repay for it: ?acq misc is good!

nago wrote:?acq misc is good!

In theory (like other acquirements), yes. The couple of times I tried it I was disappointed as usual.

What you got? Legendary decks are probably the worst thing you can get, all other are reliably good.

I got a box of beasts and some deck (don't remember what). This was in 0.15 though. I remember I was hoping for a phial, lamp or fan.

If you've seen a ton of jewelry already, acquiring some more has a high chance of giving you a randart. Im not sure but I have the feeling that jewelry has higher chances of rolling extra egos? Seems that way. Also if it is 'cursed' you dont have this ridiculous high chance of getting a total into-the-trash-it-goes negative AC malus, no matter how awesome the rest of the armour is. Instead, it will usually be something like a pip of -rF or -MR, or one of the new maluses in trunk, the idea there being they are supposed to be more manageable and encourage a difficult choice rather than "the RNG could just as well have kicked me in the nuts instead".

On an aside, the other day I acquired armour for a DsWz and got this beauty: The +5 cloak of AreYouAWizard {+9 MP -cast +5 INT} :cry:

I would argue that +MP and -cast should be mutually incompatible in the item creation process.. There is no point other than trashbinning the item for the vast majority of users. Actually, -cast itself is an incredibly harsh malus that is going to alienate those people all by itself. It is right up there with picking Trog from character creation in terms of pigeon-holing.

I've tried/seen people try jewellery acquirement lots of times and pretty much every time the result was horrible and disappointing.

Sar wrote:I've tried/seen people try acquirement lots of times and pretty much every time the result was horrible and disappointing.

Fixed that for you...

Jewellery acquirement is bad. The chance of a randart doesn't increase when you recognize more jewellery, stop making things up. Acquired noise and inaccuracy are 92.09% randarts, other jewellery is 28.85%. It's basically only better than armour acquirement if your armour is already perfect, or you have every jewellery type identified except faith/protection/evasion/slaying or something like that.

Misc acquirement is strong now and is probably better than armour acquirement even after you have the good misc items identified. Still not as good as wand though (nothing is, except for early game weapon acquirement, and food acquirement with Fedhas).

Book acquirement is poor, and is especially poor if it gives you a manual. The chance of getting a manual for a skill you want is not good; there are a lot of skills, and having 0 in a skill doesn't make its weight 0. Also, fighting, armour, spellcasting, invocations, and evocations get constant bonuses (even if they are useless with your god), probably a remnant from victory dancing.
If you do go for a manual despite this, you should have your desired skill at 11 to maximize its weight (it increases with floor([skill level]) until 12, at which point it instantly drops to the same weight as level 10, then continues decreasing and reaches 0 at level 25). The chance of actually getting a manual for it is still shit - assuming you aren't a felid and can't afford to train your unwanted skills to 22+, the best chance you can get for a manual of fighting is a little over 20%. For a skill not on that constant bonus list, it's a little over 15%. That's actually worse odds than getting randart jewellery, and that's if you have that skill at 11 and all others at 0, and are with Trog. I would say wand, armour, and even jewellery are much more rewarding in pretty much any conceivable circumstance.

daggaz wrote:Im not sure but I have the feeling that jewelry has higher chances of rolling extra egos? Seems that way. Also if it is 'cursed' you dont have this ridiculous high chance of getting a total into-the-trash-it-goes negative AC malus, no matter how awesome the rest of the armour is. Instead, it will usually be something like a pip of -rF or -MR, or one of the new maluses in trunk, the idea there being they are supposed to be more manageable and encourage a difficult choice rather than "the RNG could just as well have kicked me in the nuts instead".

This isn't how any of this works.

Are you sure (I guess you are)? Seems that way to me at least, that if you try to acquire jewelry early in the game you are pretty much guaranteed to pull an unseen fixed type, whereas if you do it while running in extended, at least it REALLY REALLY seems this way to me but Ive never dived the code, you have a very high chance (almost all the time) of pulling a randart or an unrandart.

As a related example, Ive read on the board here enough times (and seems to work this way as well) that if you have not found any boots for example, acquiring armour gives you a higher chance of loading vanilla boots, whereas if you have all the slots filled, you have a better chance of getting something that at least has an ego if not a randart. Its still highly likely to be utter crap, however. I know for a fact that the vast majority of times I acquire armour, I end up tossing it, so I fail to see the reasoning that armour is so vastly superior to jewelry, unless there is some mechanic based on seen items that lets you game the chance somewhat.

Sprucery wrote:I got a box of beasts and some deck (don't remember what). This was in 0.15 though. I remember I was hoping for a phial, lamp or fan.

New box is quite good, but I concur old one was quite meh . Anyway I don't know the odds to get elemental evokers from ?acq misc, but it looks to me the chance is pretty slim: I wiz tried to acquire 1000 items via ?misc and got 1 Lamp, 1 Disc of Storm and boxes, sacks, mirrors and legendary decks in different quantities.

nago wrote:Anyway I don't know the odds to get elemental evokers from ?acq misc, but it looks to me the chance is pretty slim: I wiz tried to acquire 1000 items via ?misc and got 1 Lamp, 1 Disc of Storm and boxes, sacks, mirrors and legendary decks in different quantities.

LOL, misc acquirement typically has a 60% (67% if you count disc) chance of giving you an elemental evoker, except that it won't give you an evoker if you've seen it already, by acquirement or otherwise.

/**
* Return a miscellaneous evokable item for acquirement.
* @return The item type chosen.
*/
static int _acquirement_misc_subtype(bool /*divine*/, int & /*quantity*/)
{
// Total weight if none have been seen is 100.
int result = random_choose_weighted( // Decks given lowest weight.
1, MISC_DECK_OF_WONDERS,
2, MISC_DECK_OF_CHANGES,
2, MISC_DECK_OF_DEFENCE,
// These have charges, so
// give them a constant
// weight.
(player_mutation_level(MUT_NO_LOVE) ? 0 : 7), MISC_BOX_OF_BEASTS,
(player_mutation_level(MUT_NO_LOVE) ? 0 : 7), MISC_SACK_OF_SPIDERS,
(player_mutation_level(MUT_NO_LOVE) ? 0 : 7), MISC_PHANTOM_MIRROR,
// The player never needs
// more than one.
(you.seen_misc[MISC_DISC_OF_STORMS] ? 0 : 7), MISC_DISC_OF_STORMS,
(you.seen_misc[MISC_LAMP_OF_FIRE] ? 0 : 15), MISC_LAMP_OF_FIRE,
(you.seen_misc[MISC_PHIAL_OF_FLOODS] ? 0 : 15), MISC_PHIAL_OF_FLOODS,
(you.seen_misc[MISC_FAN_OF_GALES] ? 0 : 15), MISC_FAN_OF_GALES,
(you.seen_misc[MISC_STONE_OF_TREMORS] ? 0 : 15), MISC_STONE_OF_TREMORS,
(you.seen_misc[MISC_LANTERN_OF_SHADOWS] ? 0 : 7), MISC_LANTERN_OF_SHADOWS,
0);
// Give a crystal ball based on both evocations and either spellcasting or
// invocations if we haven't seen one.
int skills = you.skills[SK_EVOCATIONS]
* max(you.skills[SK_SPELLCASTING], you.skills[SK_INVOCATIONS]);
if (x_chance_in_y(skills, MAX_SKILL_LEVEL * MAX_SKILL_LEVEL)
&& !you.seen_misc[MISC_CRYSTAL_BALL_OF_ENERGY])
{
result = MISC_CRYSTAL_BALL_OF_ENERGY;
}
return result;
}

Source: https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/37f ... acquire.cc

I also think you guys underestimate staff acquirement for non-magic users. For Troggers, you're guaranteed a rod. For non-troggers it's like 80%. And rods are really quite strong on average now.

Because this thread isn't long enough yet I'll mention that armor acquirement is significantly better than usual if you're an oddly shaped race - naga or centaur, and haven't yet found a barding. I'll often weight this as just about equal to wand acquirement, as you generally will get at least an ego barding, and finding branded bardings otherwise is rare.

duvessa wrote:Book acquirement is poor, and is especially poor if it gives you a manual. The chance of getting a manual for a skill you want is not good; there are a lot of skills, and having 0 in a skill doesn't make its weight 0. Also, fighting, armour, spellcasting, invocations, and evocations get constant bonuses (even if they are useless with your god), probably a remnant from victory dancing.

Is it possible to acquire Spellcasting and spell school manuals when following Trog?

If you do go for a manual despite this, you should have your desired skill at 11 to maximize its weight (it increases with floor([skill level]) until 12, at which point it instantly drops to the same weight as level 10, then continues decreasing and reaches 0 at level 25).

Interesting. I had assumed that the best was at skill level 20, because badwiki said that was where the max chance was with Sage cards.

Rast wrote:Is it possible to acquire Spellcasting and spell school manuals when following Trog?

Looking at the code again, it's clearly intended to be (albeit with reduced weight), but a later check about gods disliking items makes it get vetoed. Blame whoever decided it was a good idea to make trog "hate" items that he doesn't actually hate in any meaningful way (except for stopping you from acquiring them when you're intended to be able to acquire them...). So the chances are actually slightly better than I thought if you are with Trog, but not by much.
You can still acquire manuals of invocations with Trog.

nago wrote:New box is quite good, but I concur old one was quite meh . Anyway I don't know the odds to get elemental evokers from ?acq misc, but it looks to me the chance is pretty slim: I wiz tried to acquire 1000 items via ?misc and got 1 Lamp, 1 Disc of Storm and boxes, sacks, mirrors and legendary decks in different quantities.

What version was this? Until a couple versions back the game actually looked into your inventory to see if you had an elemental evoker and wouldn't acquire one if you were holding one.

My understanding is that elemental evokers are pretty common now.

16.1
Only lamp of fire and disc of storm were generated in the game. Others don't exist at all.

nago wrote:New box is quite good, but I concur old one was quite meh .

Oh, I stopped playing between .12 and .16 so I had no idea that the box was made useful. I didn't even know it was changed to invoke chimeras. And here I was ignoring it on the ground! Thanks for pointing this out, nago.

I wouldn't even bother with acquiring weapons. Like a +3 glaive is already going to be better than most random acquirements, there's just too many ways it can be a bad base weapon type.

Wands > Misc > Staff >> Jewellery

Armor is just terrible, even if you get a randart mostly it's either a terrible base type or has a horrible enchant value and most of the branded stuff is either common or lackluster. At least a good proportion of blue jewellery is something you might conceivably switch in for a specific use.

I rarely acq armour but I had some good stuff from it. More than one CPM, Starlight, running etc. In practice you almost always want a wand though.

And weapon acq is good if you use something rare like Staves, also often gives you good brands. I've been happy with most of my weapon acquirements.

I always hope to acquire /heal wounds. There's a fair chance of getting it, so I think wand acquirement is often a no-brainer. Exception: as an octopode there's a good chance of getting a hat or a useful shield.

Hmmm... Perhaps I should value wands more. I just usually have scrolls of TP, and potions of haste and heal wounds available, so it's not a big deal. And I often get bad wands from wand acquirement.

My go to is armour if I'm still missing an aux slot; it has a decent chance of generating a branded piece for that slot. Or weapon if I haven't seen the capstone of my weapon type. After that, wand, staff, misc, and book all seem about equal.

lazorexplosion wrote:I wouldn't even bother with acquiring weapons. Like a +3 glaive is already going to be better than most random acquirements, there's just too many ways it can be a bad base weapon type.

Weapon acquirement is weighted towards giving you base type you haven't seen in your highest-skilled weapon class. So it's a good way to get that quick blade or exe axe.

njvack wrote:
lazorexplosion wrote:I wouldn't even bother with acquiring weapons. Like a +3 glaive is already going to be better than most random acquirements, there's just too many ways it can be a bad base weapon type.

Weapon acquirement is weighted towards giving you base type you haven't seen in your highest-skilled weapon class. So it's a good way to get that quick blade or exe axe.

Should one save an acquirement scroll for later in this case then, if one has a decent weapon but not the optimal one? Maybe not in a 3-rune game, but could it be "optimal" if one wanted to go all the way?

If you find a very early acquirement scroll and you haven't seen particular crappy varieties of your main weapon and you have a combo strong enough to reliably hand the next few floors, I might. Like if I'm using polearms, and no spears have dropped, for instance.

In that case, I'd probably acquire armour.

I would never base early acquirement decisions on my intent to do extended; the odds are extremely good you'll find more acquirement or the item you want by the time you're ready for extended.

Well, the goal wouldn't be extended; it would be lowering my chance of getting a spear, hopefully getting a glaive, demon trident or bardiche instead.

Yeah, still not convinced on weapon acquirement. The bardiche/ex-axe tier weapons just aren't that amazing because 26 skill to get min delay is a huge investment and if they aren't at min delay they aren't really any better than a glaive tier weapon. I'd 100% rather have a glaive I can pick up off the floor in orc and have optimally trained very promptly leaving tons of XP to put into defense or evocations or invocations or ranged attacks or buffs and have potentially a wand of hasting from acquirement than acquire a bardiche that might be 15% better waaaay late into the game. A glaive tier weapon is easily strong enough for 15 runes, but even more important it's easily strong early and easily available. If an executioner's axe lands in your lap, hey that's nice, but trying to acquire them is... even if you succeed in acquiring it, it isn't a game changer. But a wand of haste or healing or invisibility is a game changer. A dude with 50+ hastes on demand over the course of a game and a glaive is waaay stronger in any situation that matters than a dude with just an acquired bardiche.

I could see an argument for making an attempt for a lajatang or quick blade, though.

A 26-skill requiring weapon isn't necessary for a 3-rune game for sure, but you're bound to hit monsters in the face thousands of times in a 15-runer, and you certainly have the necessary XP to get there. So an exec axe will be a great investment.

lazorexplosion wrote:A glaive tier weapon is easily strong enough for 15 runes, but even more important it's easily strong early and easily available.

Would you use your weapon enchantment scrolls on the glaive then? Or branding scrolls? A +7 bardiche is a lot better than a +1 glaive.

Wahaha wrote:
lazorexplosion wrote:A glaive tier weapon is easily strong enough for 15 runes, but even more important it's easily strong early and easily available.

Would you use your weapon enchantment scrolls on the glaive then? Or branding scrolls? A +7 bardiche is a lot better than a +1 glaive.

If do you have a nice bardiche, use the hell out of it, it's great. Even at skill 20 it's going to be on par with a glaive, especially if it's +7, but it isn't going to be a big power spike above a glaive for a long time and even then it's more like a boost from 'good enough' to 'somewhat better'. Other uses of acquirement are bigger power spikes.

I just wouldn't save enchanting and branding scrolls or use acquirement scrolls in the hopes of a bardiche when I can use a glaive.

If I've got to extended and I've got all the great wands and the evocables and my jewellery is good and I still don't have a bardiche and I've got spare enchant weapons, I might give acquiring a bardiche a shot, but I'm not super fussed about it.

I'd way rather be dumping my enchant scrolls on a bardiche, but that's not going to stop me from dumping them on the first good-branded glaive I find. But if I find an acquirement before I find a branded glaive, weapon is a good acquirement. I'm likely to get either a branded demon trident or a branded bardiche, either of which is a great late-game choice and will provide an immediate power boost (due to dumping EW scrolls on it, plus the better base type and brand.) I don't think a wand of hasting typically will make as big a difference in power as a good late-game weapon pre/early-Lair. I usually already have a couple potions of hasting, and without the weak weapon, I won't need them anywhere near as often.

So, I'm playing a MiBe with maces * flails of 17.5 and nothing in any other weapon. I've found clubs, whips. maces, flails, morningstars, dire flails, and great maces. So asking for a weapon from a !acq ought to give me a demon whip or an eveningstar, right? Either of which would be quite welcome to replace my great mace. So what do I get?

G - the +9 executioner's axe of Massacring (weapon) {venom, rC++ MP+9 Dex+3}

Yeah, great. It's a pretty nice weapon, I suppose. If you like a base delay of 2.0 in a type I haven't put any skill into. But I do have crosstraining, which gives me 11.8 in axes. But still, not what the scroll should have given me. I know, it's only "weighted" towards my highest trained skill, but the weighting seems awfully low. I think I've gotten more off-skill weapons than on-skill.

I can't recall the last time I read a ?acq and got something I was actually happy about. Generally it's something I can use, kinda. Like switching my entire weapon skill set. But it's still sucky on hydras, so I guess I've got to keep lugging around the great mace. :-P

Isn't there something wrong with acquirement if nine times out of ten you're going to choose wand out of all the options? No-brainers seem out of place in Crawl, like how we want to avoid how all the ascension kits in Nethack are pretty much the same

I have taken to aquireing weapons after the last five wand aquirments have given me wands I don't need.

I'm also not a fan of wand acquirement. I don't think it's as good or reliable as a lot of people. Armour is an excellent acquirement a lot of the time, especially if I haven't seen an aux slot. Staff is good for non-casters. Book is good for non-casters. Weapon is good for getting rare base types.

I use all sorts of different aquirements. Early game weapon acquirement is common, and armor acquirement for missing slots. If I have a haste wand, I go jewelry alot. I've gone book on casters. I've even gone gold once or twice in strange circumstances.

The Tavern

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