Switch to shields?

[rob34]

I'm playing a minotaur abyssal knight at the moment wearing a +5 great sword of holy wrath. Now I found a decent demon blade (+6 demon blade {vamp, rPois MR- Str+9}) and could by the +6 large shield of Ignorance (+2 AC/+2EV/-6 int/rn+) in a shop. Is it worth to train shields to use this stuff? Have to say that I want to play without magic so I guess it's possible to get enough xp to get rid of the penalty.

  Code:

 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.16.1 (tiles) character file.

Thexos the Slayer (Minotaur Abyssal Knight)        Turns: 59147, Time: 02:33:25

Health: 184/184    AC: 40    Str: 30    XL:     18   Next: 23%
Magic:  31/31      EV:  9    Int:  9    God:    Lugonu [******]
Gold:   2612       SH:  2    Dex: 14    Spells: 0 memorised, 17 levels left

rFire  . . .     SeeInvis +     V - +6 demon blade {vamp, rPois MR- Str+9}
rCold  + + .     Clarity  +     U - +3 plate armour {rC+}
rNeg   . . .     SustAb   .     (no shield)
rPois  +         Gourm    .     D - +2 hat {SInv}
rElec  .         Spirit   .     a - +2 cloak {rPois}
rCorr  .         Warding  .     q - +0 pair of gloves
rMut   .         Stasis   .     l - +2 pair of boots {Fly}
MR     +....                    y - amulet of clarity
Stlth  ..........               G - +4 ring of protection
                                r - ring of Divine Compulsion {+Inv MR+ Slay+3}

@: flying, somewhat resistant to hostile enchantments, extremely unstealthy
A: retaliatory headbutt, horns 2, large bone plates 1, blink 1, cold resistance
1, high mp 1
a: Blink, Depart the Abyss, Bend Space, Banish, Corrupt, Enter the Abyss,
Renounce Religion, Evoke Invisibility, Stop Flying
}: 2/15 runes: decaying, gossamer


You are on level 9 of the Dungeon.
You worship Lugonu.
Lugonu is exalted by your worship.
You are completely stuffed.

You have visited 5 branches of the dungeon, and seen 37 of its levels.
You have visited the Abyss 1 time.
You have also visited: Ice Cave.

You have collected 3989 gold pieces.
You have spent 1377 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 Q - a +5 great sword of holy wrath
 V - the +6 demon blade "Miguseu" (weapon) {vamp, rPois MR- Str+9}
   (You found it in an ice cave)   
   
   It inflicts no extra harm, but heals its wielder somewhat when it strikes a
   living foe.
   
   It affects your strength (+9).
   It protects you from poison.
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
Armour
 a - a +2 cloak of poison resistance (worn)
 l - a +2 pair of boots of flying (worn)
 q - a +0 pair of gloves (worn)
 D - a +2 hat of see invisible (worn)
 U - a +3 plate armour of cold resistance (worn)
Rods
 o - a +1 rod of inaccuracy (15/15)
   (You found it on level 2 of the Dungeon)
 z - a +0 lightning rod (9/9)
   (You found it on level 4 of the Lair of Beasts)
Jewellery
 e - an uncursed ring of protection from magic
 g - an uncursed amulet of resist mutation
 r - the ring of Divine Compulsion (left hand) {+Inv MR+ Slay+3}
   (You bought it in a shop on level 4 of the Orcish Mines)   
   
   [ring of invisibility]
   
   It affects your accuracy and damage with ranged weapons and melee attacks
   (+3).
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
   It lets you turn invisible.
 y - an amulet of clarity (around neck)
 G - a +4 ring of protection (right hand)
 L - an uncursed amulet of regeneration
 O - an uncursed ring of protection from fire
 S - an uncursed ring of positive energy
Magical devices
 h - a wand of paralysis
 P - a wand of digging
 Y - a wand of lightning
Scrolls
 f - 4 scrolls of magic mapping
 i - a scroll of summoning
 m - 14 scrolls of teleportation
 n - a scroll of fog
 t - 10 scrolls of identify
 A - 5 scrolls of fear
 M - 4 scrolls of blinking
 T - 6 scrolls of remove curse
Potions
 j - 6 potions of agility
 k - 2 potions of might
 p - 2 potions of magic
 s - 10 potions of curing
 v - 3 potions of invisibility
 x - a potion of heal wounds
 E - 3 potions of haste
 I - 3 potions of resistance
 R - 3 potions of cancellation
 X - 2 potions of berserk rage
Miscellaneous
 d - a disc of storms
 w - a phial of floods
 B - a fan of gales
 F - a plain deck of summoning {the Dance}
 H - a phantom mirror
Comestibles
 c - 21 bread rations
 u - 30 fruits
 C - 15 royal jellies


   Skills:
 + Level 21,8 Fighting
 - Level 18,4 Long Blades
 + Level 20,4 Armour
 - Level 1,1 Dodging
 - Level 10,5 Invocations
 * Level 11,9 Evocations


You have 17 spell levels left.
You don't know any spells.

Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (15/15)            Temple (0/1) D:5            Lair (8/8) D:9
  Swamp (5/5) Lair:6       Spider (5/5) Lair:3        Slime (0/6) Lair:8
    Orc (4/4) D:9             Elf (0/3) Orc:3        Vaults (0/5) D:13 D:14
 Depths (0/5) D:15       

Altars:
Ashenzari
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
Qazlal
Ru
Sif Muna
Vehumet
Xom
Yredelemnul
Zin
The Shining One
Beogh

Shops:
D:6 (   D:7 !   D:9 [(   Orc:4 }=*}


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You reflexively headbutt those who attack you in melee.
You have a pair of horns on your head.
You are partially covered in large bone plates (AC +2, SH +2).
You can translocate small distances at will.
Your flesh is cold resistant.
You have an increased reservoir of magic (+10% MP).


[Sar]

I'd probably avoid it, having 3 Int sound like a bad trade for having to sink 20-ish levels in Shields.

[rob34]

Does this matter without magic? I could simply switch to a ring of sustain abilities if I see brainworms to avoid brainlessness. A vampiric weapon + good defense + lots of HP sounds like a very good combination to me.

[Sojiro]

What's so bad about having Int 3 now that statdeath has been completely removed?

[daggaz]

There are other penalties for going to zero in a stat which will get you just as dead. A vamp demonblade is nice, but a holy greatsword can take you thru 15 runes. There is no reason to switch.

[Sar]

I'd totally use the demon blade through the areas of the game where it works, though.

[rob34]

I'll try it with the demon blade.

[Sojiro]

There are other penalties for going to zero in a stat which will get you just as dead.

OK, after checking I learned two things:
1) All stat zero effects halve your speed on top of its specific effect, so becoming brainless is more than having trouble with scrolls.
2) All stat zero effects last a minimum of 12 turns after the stat is restored, even if healed immediately (waiting makes this worse).

So you can't immediately fix the issue by quaffing a potion, and it does have an effect that can turn an easy situation deadly. On the other hand, the only effect in the game (which isn't self-inflicted) that can remove more than 1 Int at a time is the brain feed attack (1d3) and divination miscasts from zot traps (0 or 1d3 or 1d5). That makes it very unlikely to be taken by surprise by that sort of issue, and even if it happens it's manageable. Having a single additional point of int (from a level up bonus for example) reduce the chance of this happening nearly to 0 since only the unluckiest of all zot traps effect could do it (and even then quaffing restore reduces the effect to being slow for around 15 turns).

That's certainly manageable, as long as you're careful around brain worms and neqoxecs. Of course if there's another slightly less awesome shield, the risk is probably not worth it. It's not like a weapon (or ring) you can easily switch. Personally I'd do it because that's interesting and a rare chance to make the Shield skill really work for me.

[partial]

I'd hate to waste a level-up stat point on Int though (esp for a Fi)

4 int isn't really much better than 3, especially considering, as you said, int drain won't usually take you by surprise.

[KoboldLord]

Stat drain is not really a factor here. If the character gets surprised by a bunch of int drain… it can take off the shield. The stat goes back above 0 immediately, and the brainless status goes away after a little bit of extra time.

+6 vamp demon blade is really good. You might as well strap on some sort of shield while you're using it. Mid-levels of shield investment are cheap, and you don't actually need to zero out the penalty. Just be aware that your accuracy isn't as good as normal.

[Sar]

If the character gets surprised by a bunch of int drain… it can take off the shield. The stat goes back above 0 immediately

Well, except you get paralysed when your stats drops to zero or lower (at least for some stats this is true, no idea if Int works like that), and taking a shield off takes a lot of time IIRC too. So, in combat situation it's not exactly the best course of action.

[Sojiro]

If the character gets surprised by a bunch of int drain… it can take off the shield. The stat goes back above 0 immediately

Well, except you get paralysed when your stats drops to zero or lower (at least for some stats this is true, no idea if Int works like that)

It doesn't. That used to be true of Strength. Not anymore now that inventory weight is gone. The only problem with becoming brainless is that you are slowed and have 80% chance to fail reading a scroll. You can't cast spell either, but this character isn't doing that anyway.

But it's true that removing a large shield takes a long time, doubly so when slowed. If there are enemies around, you're better off quaffing Restoration.

[njvack]

IIRC Restore Abilities is gone in trunk.

[Sar]

Well, if it doesn't than learndb doesn't know about it yet:

  Code:

If a stat reaches 0 you are immediately paralysed for 2-4 turns, you are slowed, and other unpleasant negative effects depending on the stat. These effects persist for a short time after the stat recovers. Before 0.17, additional stat drain while already at zero caused 5 + random2(maxhp/10) irresistible damage.

[greedo]

I'd honestly be more concerned about MR- on a 3 MR per level minotaur with that demon blade that can't necessarily be unwielded in one turn. My advice: forget the shield, but put one point in int at level 21 to prep yourself for the shield if it becomes viable to wear it later on in case you find a lot of MR or a less dangerous one hander, and just train dodging for now. One less dex isn't going to kill you, and the one int would seriously make the shield safer.

Also: if you don't cast spells, you don't need to completely offset the shield, so it will cost far less investment than you would imagine. Going to 15 or so with a large shield on a fighter is generally good enough. The dodge penalty is negligible and I think at 15/25 the melee penalty isn't too bad. It's probably even useful at 5 shields, it just will seriously impede you.

[KoboldLord]

The paralysis is only really awful if you're fighting dangerous monsters when it happens. If you're just hammering down a single mind worm with maybe a little chaff, you can just finish killing it and then take off the shield. If you're fighting a mind worm and a bunch of dangerous monsters with 1 int left you kind of deserve what happens to you.

Being able to juggle equipment to fix a stat is a lot better than needing to gain xp to fix a stat. Even though it'll take some time to take off the shield, possibly with some chaff still pestering you, that's still a lot better than needing to kill a bunch of deep troll packs with intermittent paralysis kicking in at the most annoying times just to get the xp to work off the stat damage.

Probably switch back to the great sword if you want to go for the Abyssal Rune, but int drain is rare enough in the rest of the pre-Zot game that taking off the shield is a good enough plan to handle stat damage.

[Sar]

Actually yeah, MR- is pretty bad, for some reason I thought it was a MiBe but well, I probably wouldn't use the vamp blade in this case.

[tabstorm]

"Should I change to shields if..."
No.

[rob34]

Thanks for all the tipps. I became too cocky and was killed by Royal Jelly Next time, I will first do V:5 and Abyss ...

[daggaz]

Search the forums a bit, there are various threads that contain tips for simplifying TRJ. Anything you can do to avoid getting corroded down to -50 AC, for example, is generally a good idea. This includes not getting surrounded by slime spawns.

[nago]

Fight in the central corridor, with haste might and agility (and quaff also resistance if you lack rcorr)
Before attacking fill the corridor with summons. My favourite is sack of spiders because they can tank well with their ev. Also box, ?summoning, spells are neat.

Even better if there are some low tier monsters like jellies or shining eyes inside the complex. In that case just wait while they're close to the RJ eventually spending the turn buffing or healing

[Sar]

Also a bolt wand or a lamp is good for finishing heavily wounded TRJ when it retreats behind its summons. Something with penetrating attack.

[daggaz]

EDIT never mind was thinking of the little yellow ones for some reason. Yeah shining eyes are big softies provided you have rMut.

also just read in a YASD thread that you can net TRJ for stabbity stab damage. lol, get it while its hot kids, wont last long.

[rob34]

I got my revenge Could anybody give some advices if it's possible to get some of the more difficult runes with my new abbysal knight? Zot 1-4 were ridiculously easy (except for these strange curse tues with torment). Afterwards I'll play another character, already started an springgan conjurer of Vehumet and a gargoyle earth elementarist of Ashenzari. Didn´t see that springgans have -3 aptitude for conjurations ... but I can still trains some elementary skills instead.

  Code:

 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.16.1 (tiles) character file.

Maeros the Conqueror (Minotaur Abyssal Knight)    Turns: 118219, Time: 06:04:05

HP:   244/244 (245) AC: 48    Str: 29    XL:     27
MP:   39/39         EV: 27    Int: 11    God:    Lugonu [******]
Gold: 5289          SH:  0    Dex: 22    Spells: 0 memorised, 26 levels left

rFire  + . .     SeeInvis .     i - +9 triple sword (holy)
rCold  + + .     Clarity  .     M - +10 plate armour {MR+}
rNeg   + . .     SustAb   .     (no shield)
rPois  +         Gourm    .     (helmet restricted)
rElec  +         Spirit   .     n - +2 cloak {rPois}
rCorr  +         Warding  .     k - +2 pair of gloves of Plog {rPois rC+ rCorr Str-5}
rMut   +         Stasis   .     B - +4 pair of boots of Existentialism {rC+ rN+ Dex+3}
MR     ++++.                    Q - amulet of Xailos {rMut Str+3 Int+5}
Stlth  ..........               y - ring "Cliuwn" {rF+ Str+4 Dex+4 Slay+2}
                                N - ring of Scepticism {rElec MR+ Str+2 Int-3 Slay+2}

@: studying Dodging, incredibly resistant to hostile enchantments, extremely
unstealthy
A: retaliatory headbutt, horns 2, yellow scales 1, frail 1
a: Depart the Abyss, Bend Space, Banish, Corrupt, Enter the Abyss, Renounce
Religion
}: 5/15 runes: serpentine, barnacled, slimy, silver, abyssal


You are on level 4 of the Depths.
You worship Lugonu.
Lugonu is exalted by your worship.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 11 branches of the dungeon, and seen 63 of its levels.
You have visited the Abyss 5 times.
You have also visited: Labyrinth, Trove, Ossuary, Ice Cave and Wizlab.

You have collected 10708 gold pieces.
You have spent 5419 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 f - the +14 plutonium sword {Contam Stlth-}
   (You found it on level 6 of the Pits of Slime)   
   
   It causes magical contamination when unequipped.
   It makes you less stealthy.
 i - a +9 triple sword of holy wrath (weapon)
Armour
 k - the +2 pair of gloves of Plog (worn) {rPois rC+ rCorr Str-5}
   (You found it on level 4 of the Depths)   
   
   It affects your strength (-5).
   It protects you from cold.
   It protects you from poison.
   It protects you from acid and corrosion.
 n - a +2 cloak of poison resistance (worn)
 B - the +4 pair of boots of Existentialism (worn) {rC+ rN+ Dex+3}
   (You acquired it on level 1 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   It affects your dexterity (+3).
   It protects you from cold.
   It protects you from negative energy.
 M - a +10 plate armour of magic resistance (worn)
Rods
 S - a +2 rod of clouds (10/10)
   (You took it off a minotaur on level 2 of the Depths)
Jewellery
 g - an uncursed amulet of clarity
 o - the ring "Thaqiserph" {SustAb -Cast rElec rF+ rN+ Str+4 Int+4}
   (You found it in a treasure trove)   
   
   [ring of sustain abilities]
   
   It sustains your strength, intelligence and dexterity.
   It affects your strength (+4).
   It affects your intelligence (+4).
   It protects you from fire.
   It insulates you from electricity.
   It protects you from negative energy.
   It prevents spellcasting.
 q - the ring of Kisusar {SustAb MR+ Int+4 Slay+2}
   (You found it on level 6 of the Pits of Slime)   
   
   [ring of sustain abilities]
   
   It sustains your strength, intelligence and dexterity.
   It affects your intelligence (+4).
   It affects your accuracy and damage with ranged weapons and melee attacks
   (+2).
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
 y - the ring "Cliuwn" (right hand) {rF+ Str+4 Dex+4 Slay+2}
   (You found it on level 6 of the Pits of Slime)   
   
   [ring of slaying]
   
   It affects your strength (+4).
   It affects your dexterity (+4).
   It affects your accuracy and damage with ranged weapons and melee attacks
   (+2).
   It protects you from fire.
 C - an uncursed ring of see invisible
 E - an uncursed amulet of regeneration
 N - the ring of Scepticism (left hand) {rElec MR+ Str+2 Int-3 Slay+2}
   (You took it off a minotaur in a labyrinth)   
   
   [ring of intelligence]
   
   It affects your strength (+2).
   It affects your intelligence (-3).
   It affects your accuracy and damage with ranged weapons and melee attacks
   (+2).
   It insulates you from electricity.
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
 Q - the amulet of Xailos (around neck) {rMut Str+3 Int+5}
   (You found it in a labyrinth)   
   
   [amulet of resist mutation]
   
   It protects you from mutation.
   It affects your strength (+3).
   It affects your intelligence (+5).
Magical devices
 e - a wand of fire (7)
 t - a wand of cold (4)
 z - a wand of teleportation (2)
 R - a wand of digging (18)
 V - a wand of invisibility (3)
 Z - a wand of hasting (2)
Scrolls
 s - 7 scrolls of teleportation
 u - 4 scrolls of holy word
 v - 29 scrolls of identify
 w - 4 scrolls of summoning
 A - 8 scrolls of magic mapping
 H - 22 scrolls of remove curse
 J - 13 scrolls of recharging
 K - 2 scrolls of blinking
 L - 9 scrolls of fog
Potions
 d - 3 potions of might
 l - a potion of restore abilities
 m - 15 potions of curing
 p - 10 potions of agility
 x - 3 potions of resistance
 D - 4 potions of heal wounds
 T - a potion of haste
 U - a potion of berserk rage
Books
 O - a manual of Dodging
Miscellaneous
 a - a lamp of fire
 b - a box of beasts {used: 1}
 h - a phial of floods
 r - a stone of tremors
 F - a legendary deck of escape {Swap}
 G - 2 phantom mirrors
 X - a fan of gales
 Y - an ornate deck of defence {the Helm}
Comestibles
 c - 28 bread rations
 j - 22 beef jerkies
 P - 67 fruits
 W - 4 poisonous chunks of flesh


   Skills:
 O Level 27 Fighting
 O Level 27 Long Blades
 O Level 27 Armour
 + Level 21,6 Dodging
 - Level 17,5 Invocations
 + Level 18,3 Evocations


You have 26 spell levels left.
You don't know any spells.

Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (15/15)            Temple (0/1) D:7            Lair (8/8) D:11
 Shoals (5/5) Lair:3        Snake (5/5) Lair:4        Slime (6/6) Lair:7
    Orc (4/4) D:9             Elf (3/3) Orc:4        Vaults (5/5) D:13
  Crypt (3/3) Vaults:3       Tomb (0/3) Crypt:3      Depths (5/5) D:15
    Zot (4/5) Depths:5   

Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
Ru
Sif Muna
Trog
Vehumet
Xom
The Shining One
Beogh
Jiyva

Shops:
D:14 ?   Orc:2 (   Orc:4 *(:%   Elf:1 %   Shoals:5 :   Vaults:1 (   Vaults:2 }   Vaults:4 (   Vaults:5 :(
Depths:3 :

Portals:
Hell: Lair:8 Depths:1 Depths:2 Depths:3 Depths:4 Depths:5
Abyss: Depths:3 Depths:4
Pandemonium: Depths:3
Ziggurat: Depths:2

Annotations:
D:8 exclusion: 2 oklob saplings
D:9 1 runed door
Snake:5 corrupted
Crypt:3 Margery


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You reflexively headbutt those who attack you in melee.
You have a pair of horns on your head.
You are partially covered in yellow scales (AC +2).
You are frail (-10% HP).


[Sojiro]

All resists, +9 holy triple sword, +10 plate? Yeah, this character is diesel enough to do 15 runes with ease.

[Pollen_Golem]

All resists, +9 holy triple sword, +10 plate? Yeah, this character is diesel enough to do 15 runes with ease.

It should also put a hat on.

[rob34]

I would love to. But the only hat I found until Zot:4 was the Hat of Pondering. Maybe I should grind the Abyss a bit more to find a better one.

Update: Finished the Tartarus with some item adjustments (rN+++). In the iron city, I had too many problems with these Tormentors, so I retreated.

[njvack]

noooooo