The Tavern

Hi, I've been playing DCSS for some time, wins with SpEn, DDEE and MiFi(15). But still, it seems like the game is just way harder for a caster (or possibly any EV* based character). Currently I'm trying MfIE, with Yred or Veh and I find that I need to put a couple of points (3-4) into stealth early on and focus on dodging/polearms/fighting to survive early on (usually I do fighting last). (I usually leave Ice on at all times). I'm also heavily using Throwing weapons at zero. But this leaves me painfully underequipped to deal with lair or orc. The moment something armoured appears, you really need Throw Icicle online, and I don't. Ozo doesn't seem to cut it. (Should I train Armor???) The best game I've had died in Shoals, and had two rings of ice and a robe of the archmagi.

I'm at something of a loss: MfIE is meant to be a pretty easy combination. Has anyone got any tips for how to balance all of this?

*It feels like EV and AC are currently "balanced" by matching theoretical damage reduction, but actually it's theoretical chance of death while escaping that needs balancing, and your chances of dying on two unlucky hits are way higher

Don't pick Yred. Veh is fine if you use throw icicle.
Don't put any xp in stealth please.
Freeze can kill lots of things. Before you get to Lair you should have one or more of these 3 things: summon ice beast, throw icicle, good polearm skill. The thing(s) that you trained should let you deal with everything if playing properly.
I never noticed a difference in damage reduction between EV and AC characters. The damage gets averaged out very well. Dying in 2 hits because you went with EV and not AC is a myth, caused by how evasion and armor often work in other games. EV characters should still have more than 10 AC in Lair.

Take advantage of Mf's filthy +4 polearms apt to beef up your offense. Early branded trident or spear is strong.

Or try a Wizard (Ds/HE are my favs), as they have alot of spells that you can leverage to avoid damage while still attacking (meph, conj flame, blink, call imp, magic dart's full los range and 100% hit rate).

Oh yeah forgot about Ice Beast

very strong summon

The only thing that would cause you to die in 2 hit with an EV character and not a an AC one is GDR. if you have 25 AC with ozos in a robe a monster can still deal the same max damage to you as if you had 0 AC. AC is generaly better than EV early game because EV is percentage based damage reduction and AC is flat damage reduction (on average).

Stealth is the thing that I invest in because I don't want to walk down a set of stairs and instantly be killed. Having moderate stealth is what lets you survey your location with enough time to go back up your stairs if things are too dangerous. I wouldn't make it a big priority, but get a few levels when it's cheap compared to the other skills; it helps in not immediately obvious ways.

I had a win with a MfIE and found that I was mostly using Ice magic for the utility and getting most of my kills with my plentiful +4 spears aptitudes, but at some point I did transition to heavy armor and just continued using ice support spells so maybe I wasn't so icey afterall.

But for your example of dying in Shoals, it looks like you feel like you weren't killing things quickly enough, but I would assume tactics and preparation play a bigger role. For Shoals, you should pick up Repel Missiles and keep Ozo's shield up in combat, because the ranged projectiles can be really nasty. Also, make sure you have enough MR to avoid getting charmed by the Sirens; losing your ability to retreat often spells death. From there, it's just limiting how many things you are fighting at once, and retreating when you need.

For defense, I wouldn't stick with robes just because Ozo's armor has that restriction. You can cast fairly well in Chain mail or a lighter dragon armor and they'll give you some GDR and allow for a decent level of enchantment.

With MfIE, **Sk, and other combos where the book tempts you into splitting your skills between magic schools, melee, and defenses, the best course of action is to avoid that temptation and try to focus on some early specialization.


See, I'd recommend training dodging/armour/fighting instead, since that means I'm unlikely to walk downstairs and die before I can get back up.

A few levels of stealth on a character with stable killdudes/defenses is a fine idea, and stabbers will obviously want to keep it well-trained, but it's a lot better to be able to survive attacks from awake monsters than hope they stay asleep. Cheidudes will also appreciate a few levels of stealth earlier than most characters. Everybody else, though? They can put off training stealth for quite some time.

Never train stealth unless you have decided to be a stealth stabber.

Another suggestion: Try using leather with ozocubu's instead of a robe or TLA. You should try to get summon ice beast castable as soon as possible, don't rush getting Throw Icicle.

Stealth is good, it helps you pick your battles. A few levels is cheap to get. Always train some stealth unless you're in heavy armour or worship Qaz. A sleeping Grinder is convenient to exclude.

It's cheap to get in the midgame. In the pre-Lair game, where XP is relatively scarce and precision with skill training can be most helpful? Eh.

Feel free to disagree, but in the pre-Lair game you are most vulnerable and benefit most from the ability to avoid something. In the early game even a little bit stealth helps, because monsters have low HD.

(...and the game is won upon reaching Lair anyway :) )

Phaedo: It sounds like you may be spreading the skill points thin by training a bunch of things at once, or by training some things more than you need to.

My two winning MfIEs (here and here) both focused exclusively on Ice Magic in the early dungeon levels. Ozo's Armour, Freeze, and untrained floor trash weapons took them to Temple depth. Then they stopped training Ice (which had reached around 8-10) and picked up about 10 levels of Dodging, while grabbing only a couple of levels of support skills (e.g. Charms/Conj/Summoning to boost starting book spells). By Lair they were ready to focus on weapon skill, while throwing in a bit of Fighting or additional support skills.

That's the typical pattern for any MfIE I've played that had a shot at winning (I've splatted a lot of them in optional endgame areas when I could probably have just won). By the time you reach Lair you should have swapped to the best-enchanted leather armour you've found and be ready to train a weapon skill -- usually meaning polearms since you're basically guaranteed to have a trident by then, but possibly meaning another skill if you happen to have found an endgame-quality weapon of another type with lowish skill requirements. At that point you should be able to rely on melee as your primary offense, with spells for support: Throw Frost/Icicle to soften tougher enemies up, Ozo's to boost defense, and Ice Beasts as backup.

If that's not working for you, maybe the problem is tactics? Merfolk are pretty robust, but they're not as forgiving as Minotaur or DD, and you can't just run away from things like a Spriggan. That means you may actually have to be careful about choosing your fights in the early D levels while you get your magic online; but then those spells can carry you as you branch quickly into melee, at which point the combo always feels rather powerful to me.

I'm trying this right now. Just died again due to failing to cast OA... *sigh*