How is Fedhas Good?

[bcadren]

I still don't really get it. In a recent game I -lost my religion- by hitting autoexplore. My character walked through plants, leaving my mushrooms behind (L:$ vault requiring walking through plants to reach the center) while I wasn't there they all got killed by Death Yaks and...I lost my religion. Because I was doing a challenge to stay with Fedhas, I immediately ran to the temple and rejoined and...went on to die before getting enough piety to be able to use abilities again. I mean jesus, can we stop the 'extra piety cost when shit dies' mechanic? It makes Fedhas piety far FAR more unstable than any other god in general. In the same game I went from ***** to ** by using evolution on a Ballisto once...relatively early on the floor and it made the thing get surrounded in other ballistos...which got killed while I was elsewhere on the floor. I mean geez, more piety cost for something dying...when the thing stays out of your sight half the time just isn't...it isn't reasonable for the player to try to bargain with.

[Sar]

once I followed Trog and berserked and got confused and couldn't quaff any curing and I died

can we stop with this "Trog is good" meme already and accept Trog for what he is: an utterly mediocre god at best?

[daggaz]

While we are derailing threads, I'd just like to say that early game is stupid.

[radinms]

fedhas does nothing at stupid pre-temple game, so fedhas is useless.

[Sphara]

Just how many mushrooms did you have? Piety loss for one killed mushroom really isn't big at all. Is it possible that something did set forest fire offscreen? I've gotten penance from almost full piety in the Lair by an offscreen fire drake, while I used absolutely no fire myself at all. Thought about making bug report but i really did not see what happened.

Don't use evolution on ballistos. They're friendly anyway, right?

[bel]

From what I understand, piety cost for plants dying can be quite variable ("you feel a little guilty", to "you feel very guilty"). Fedhas piety is indeed quite variable, however, piety gain is fast, and piety exists to be used. Most people underuse most god abilities. Fedhas is still is the best god, regardless of this freak occurrence. You generally won't lose the most important 1* ability.

[bcadren]

Is it possible that something did set forest fire offscreen?

I suppose it's possible. I had about 11 mushrooms.

Don't use evolution on ballistos. They're friendly anyway, right?

A single use of Reproduction, followed by evolution, creating a Ballisto that blocks the path out of the endvault on Elf:3...I've cleared Elf:3 that way before, bunch of confused, helpless elves getting exploded on, shot by one oklob and by my long bow...Deep Water there tooo (Rain) so they could fall in. [Again Immediately after using the abilities I'd went from ***** to ****, the additional piety cost from losing ballistos during the battle dropped all the way to *.]

[hannobal]

Suggestion: Remove Fedhas piety penalty on allied plants dying. Increase piety cost of evolution and reproduction to compensate.
Then we will have piety cost happen immediately when using ability, not with unpredictable delay.
If cost increase is about right amount, players will have roughly same amount of piety to play with in the long run.

[bel]

Is it possible that something did set forest fire offscreen?

I suppose it's possible. I had about 11 mushrooms.

Don't use evolution on ballistos. They're friendly anyway, right?

A single use of Reproduction, followed by evolution, creating a Ballisto that blocks the path out of the endvault on Elf:3...I've cleared Elf:3 that way before, bunch of confused, helpless elves getting exploded on, shot by one oklob and by my long bow...Deep Water there tooo (Rain) so they could fall in. [Again Immediately after using the abilities I'd went from ***** to ****, the additional piety cost from losing ballistos during the battle dropped all the way to *.]

Park your mushrooms on a different level before playing with exploding things, perhaps. Also, if you cleared the whole Elf:3 vault with little or no risk in another game, it is hard to understand your complaint "How is Fedhas good".

[njvack]

Fedhas is actually completely Neutral, even though you can't worship as an undead.

[bcadren]

Park your mushrooms on a different level before playing with exploding things, perhaps. Also, if you cleared the whole Elf:3 vault with little or no risk in another game, it is hard to understand your complaint "How is Fedhas good".

Fedhas Abilities are really powerful, yes. But you can't rely on having them. I mean if you were with Qazlal at ****** and used Disaster Area enough to lose access to it, it'd be a little bit before you get it back...but you wouldn't have also lost access to all the other abilities and be down to * or even "Lost your Religion" (in Trunk), Penance (in Stable) in the process. Fedhas has an issue where you suddenly have so much of a piety cost you end up drained to almost no piety after using abilities in one fight. This is particularly bad with using Reproduction and Evolution on a Ballisto. Yes this is the most powerful thing you can do and it deserves considerable cost, but no...

Oklob creation costs no piety, but Oklobs being killed costs 5. If you make an Oklob early on a floor, there's a fair chance you will randomly lose piety while exploring the rest of the floor because a wandering monster found the oklob.

Similarly using reproduction costs no piety, but it's likely to spawn ballistos and ballistos being destroyed costs 5. Evolution on a Ballisto costs 5 (which is fine, you are actually using an ability), but if that active ballisto isn't killed quickly, it creates 24 inactive ballistos, which are considered allied (so enemies attack them) and have no attack of their own (harmless) and they dying...COSTS 5, EACH. So...more than max piety out of harmless shrooms with one actually dangerous in the middle.

Wandering Mushrooms can't be recalled like other allies and are the only allies where the god punishes you for their deaths, this becomes an issue to an extreme when autoexplore lets you walk through plants, but they can't OR you step on a teleport trap and they get killed before you can reach them. Furthermore trying to keep them alive can lead to bad gameplay habits. Isn't the evolution cost it would take to replace them enough without additional cost on deaths?

Yea the problem with Fedhas isn't that the abilities aren't good it's the piety is WAY too variable.

[Sprucery]

Still, the times I've worshipped Fedhas I've had no problems like that. My first Fedhas winner managed to piss the god off by accidentally casting an Ice Storm that hit my own Oklob on Zot:5 (won under penance). But I haven't had any problems with piety. I admit I haven't used Reproduction much, though.

[duvessa]

reproduction isn't an ability you should actually use

[bcadren]

reproduction isn't an ability you should actually use

THEN FIX OR REMOVE IT!

[archaeo]

of all the strategies for effecting change in crawl, shouting at duvessa has to be among the least likely to succeed.

[bcadren]

of all the strategies for effecting change in crawl, shouting at duvessa has to be among the least likely to succeed.

I could submit a patch changing Fedhas around a bit, but IDK if it would be accepted, or even looked at.

[ebering]

Your complaints about hyperactive ballistos are partially addressed in current trunk, partly due to a patch from me.

They now expire after some number of explosions, and if they expire don't cost piety. Their spawn are still a hazard, but there will be fewer of them. A further fix would be to have hyperactives not spawn new inactive ballistos. Or have the spawns be good neutral instead of allies.

Of everything mentioned in the thread this is the one I'd wager has the greatest chance of landing. The piety cost for explosions should be one time and up front.

[greedo]

Or just friggin remove the ridiculous piety loss on death and make wandering mushrooms cost more piety to use. It'd make the god more balanced early game anyways when your shrooms aren't going to die anyways. Thematically it doesn't even make sense, fedhas even likes it when YOU die, what does he care if some zombie-like mushrooms get torn apart and decay.