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proper use of apportation: doubts

PostPosted: Friday, 3rd June 2011, 13:48
by Roderic
My NaSt of Cheibirados has found a party tricks book and has learned the apportation spell. I've tried to grab a scroll out of the sight of an orc warrior but the game said that the mass is too much. I don't understand this, it's just a scroll, not a stash. How does the apportation work and how can it be improved ?

Re: proper use of apportation: doubts

PostPosted: Friday, 3rd June 2011, 13:49
by Galefury
Is this 0.8 or 0.9? Apportation was recently made really crappy.

Regardless, to make apportation better you need more spellpower. That means int, tloc skill and spellcasting skill.

Re: proper use of apportation: doubts

PostPosted: Friday, 3rd June 2011, 13:51
by Roderic
0.8

Maybe it's the tloc ability, which I lack of.

Re: proper use of apportation: doubts

PostPosted: Friday, 3rd June 2011, 13:53
by Galefury
In 0.8 non-orb apportation will either succeed or fail, depending on spell power and mass of apported items. If it succeeds it goes to your feet, if it doesn't it stays where it is. Since it's a level 1 spell it can have really low power, and thus it can fail even against light items.

Re: proper use of apportation: doubts

PostPosted: Friday, 3rd June 2011, 13:55
by Roderic
Thanks, I'll train until more success comes

Re: proper use of apportation: doubts

PostPosted: Friday, 3rd June 2011, 14:16
by XuaXua
Will TRUNK apportation eventually be able to pull crap out of deep water? I ask because holy crap, I can't get anything out of there.

Re: proper use of apportation: doubts

PostPosted: Friday, 3rd June 2011, 14:33
by mageykun
I'm pretty sure items hidden in deep water only being accessible to merfolk, or fed worshipers, and not apportation is a deliberate design decision. Apporation is already really usefull for a lvl 1 spell, turning water into safe storage would be too much.

If the spell fails, it's just you don't have enough spell power for the weight. Train spellcasting, tloc, and / or bump Int. By the time you can apport giant clubs, you can lift the orb.

@Galefury: How was the spell nerfed exactly? I hadn't noticed a change.

Re: proper use of apportation: doubts

PostPosted: Friday, 3rd June 2011, 14:45
by Tiber
And grey draconians (the only thing they're good for).

Haven't tried it, but I think they made it sometimes only bring stuff closer to you, like how it works with the orb.

Re: proper use of apportation: doubts

PostPosted: Friday, 3rd June 2011, 14:51
by MyOtheHedgeFox
How did it change in 0.9?

Re: proper use of apportation: doubts

PostPosted: Friday, 3rd June 2011, 15:19
by Galefury
Apport distance depends on power now, often items will only be drawn closer to you instead of to your feet. I suppose this can be useful in some cases, but I find it to be pretty annoying. I haven't used it much yet, maybe it gets tolerable at decent power.

Re: proper use of apportation: doubts

PostPosted: Friday, 3rd June 2011, 15:34
by jejorda2
Galefury wrote:Apport distance depends on power now, often items will only be drawn closer to you instead of to your feet.

Can apporting an item over lava at low spell power drop the item into the lava now?

Re: proper use of apportation: doubts

PostPosted: Friday, 3rd June 2011, 15:57
by XuaXua
mageykun wrote:I'm pretty sure items hidden in deep water only being accessible to merfolk, or fed worshipers, and not apportation is a deliberate design decision. Apporation is already really usefull for a lvl 1 spell, turning water into safe storage would be too much.


It's not safe; I thought Apportation at low levels can destroy items.

I figured Apportation at a HIGH level could be used to pull items out of deep water, like something useful when you take down the orcs in the bailey with memphitic cloud + drowning. I hate that they pickup all the gold. Might be nice if their zombies, which do come back, came back carrying all the items they originally had; it's not like that gold was being held in their hands. Zombie won't just take his pants off when he rises up from the deep, leaving the gold behind.

Re: proper use of apportation: doubts

PostPosted: Friday, 3rd June 2011, 16:45
by galehar
XuaXua wrote:
mageykun wrote:I'm pretty sure items hidden in deep water only being accessible to merfolk, or fed worshipers, and not apportation is a deliberate design decision. Apporation is already really usefull for a lvl 1 spell, turning water into safe storage would be too much.


It's not safe; I thought Apportation at low levels can destroy items.

Not anymore, I've fixed that. And you can't apport items into lava either. Also, the formula has been improved in 0.9, this week. Apporting light items should be much easier now. I haven't tested it yet.

Re: proper use of apportation: doubts

PostPosted: Saturday, 4th June 2011, 13:11
by slowcar
the proper use of apportation is: victory dancing translocations :)

Re: proper use of apportation: doubts

PostPosted: Saturday, 4th June 2011, 16:53
by XuaXua
minmay wrote:
XuaXua wrote:I figured Apportation at a HIGH level could be used to pull items out of deep water, like something useful when you take down the orcs in the bailey with memphitic cloud + drowning. I hate that they pickup all the gold.

Surely there should be at least a small drawback to trivializing an entire bailey by drowning the occupants with a couple casts of a level 3 spell.


It's not my fault my character and the level was built that way.

Again though, highest level Apportation won't grab items back from the depths and only Merfolk get the advantage here?

I think at that level it should at least give a % chance for acquisition on attempt.

Re: proper use of apportation: doubts

PostPosted: Saturday, 4th June 2011, 17:13
by KoboldLord
XuaXua wrote:Again though, highest level Apportation won't grab items back from the depths and only Merfolk get the advantage here?


Grey draconians, too. There's Fedhas for everybody else.

XuaXua wrote:I think at that level it should at least give a % chance for acquisition on attempt.


A percentage chance for success is the same as guaranteed success. You can just hammer ` until you get whatever you're trying to target.

Re: proper use of apportation: doubts

PostPosted: Saturday, 4th June 2011, 18:02
by mageykun
slowcar wrote:the proper use of apportation is: victory dancing translocations :)

The proper use of apportation is: grabbing anything and everything you want as soon as it enters LOS.

There, fixed it for you. :p

Re: proper use of apportation: doubts

PostPosted: Sunday, 5th June 2011, 01:32
by XuaXua
KoboldLord wrote:
XuaXua wrote:Again though, highest level Apportation won't grab items back from the depths and only Merfolk get the advantage here?


Grey draconians, too. There's Fedhas for everybody else.

XuaXua wrote:I think at that level it should at least give a % chance for acquisition on attempt.


A percentage chance for success is the same as guaranteed success. You can just hammer ` until you get whatever you're trying to target.


Guaranteed success through percentage chance does not come without cost : it takes time, for which the costs are hunger, a lower score, an increased time counter, and the potential for encounters.

Re: proper use of apportation: doubts

PostPosted: Sunday, 5th June 2011, 02:26
by KoboldLord
XuaXua wrote:Guaranteed success through percentage chance does not come without cost : it takes time, for which the costs are hunger, a lower score, an increased time counter, and the potential for encounters.


Seriously? You're seriously arguing that such a petty, pathetic cost is capable of balancing out absolutely anything? Were we face-to-face, I would be able to do little but gape at astonishment at the sheer irrelevance of this cost and the fact that you are presenting it as if I should take it seriously, but fortunately I am typing so I can take a moment to regain my composure before I continue.

In every case, you would be able to freely wait to fetch whatever junk you wanted out of the water until the surrounding area is cleared and safe. You could also fetch the junk with some xp in the pool so you victory dance spellcasting in the process, so it would even be optimal play. Whether the chance of fetching the item is 10% or .01%, that item is eventually going to be affected and you'll have your item.

The only real difference between 100% Apportation of underwater items and 1% Apportation of underwater items is that the latter is really obnoxiously annoying. We don't really need a trivially easy but also tedious thing added to the game. Either you should be able to fetch items from deep water, or you shouldn't. This can vary from character to character, but given a particular character there is no excuse for demanding a bunch of unnecessary button mashing to pick up an item.

If you want to argue that Apportation should work on items in deep water, please do so honestly. A proposal that it should only work some of the time is an example of a False Compromise, since it has the set dressing of a compromise but awards one side everything they ask for and the other side nothing.

Re: proper use of apportation: doubts

PostPosted: Sunday, 5th June 2011, 16:03
by Jeremiah
Maybe if you try to apport something in deep water and fail, then there should be a chance you apport the water instead and drown yourself.

(This isn't a serious suggestion.)

Re: proper use of apportation: doubts

PostPosted: Sunday, 5th June 2011, 18:47
by mageykun
Maybe if you target a square with deep water it should result it hitting yourself with a blast of water, like aquamancers throw.

If you're dumb enough to try and apport lava? Bolt of magma. :lol:

(naturally, to avoid abuse, both smite targeted.)

Re: proper use of apportation: doubts

PostPosted: Monday, 6th June 2011, 00:42
by XuaXua
KoboldLord wrote:
XuaXua wrote:Guaranteed success through percentage chance does not come without cost : it takes time, for which the costs are hunger, a lower score, an increased time counter, and the potential for encounters.


Seriously? You're seriously arguing that such a petty, pathetic cost is capable of balancing out absolutely anything? Were we face-to-face, I would be able to do little but gape at astonishment at the sheer irrelevance of this cost and the fact that you are presenting it as if I should take it seriously, but fortunately I am typing so I can take a moment to regain my composure before I continue.


It is a cost. Maybe it is a negligible SLASH nonexistent cost to one so experienced as yourself and those who've backed you and your unwarranted sanctimonious tone , but to inexperienced players (granted, who might not consider to memorize a utility spell such as this one), that cost is the difference between retrieving a lost item from the depths and death by starvation.

Re: proper use of apportation: doubts

PostPosted: Monday, 6th June 2011, 00:57
by Galefury
This is almost not funny anymore. Almost.

I don't think KoboldLord's sanctimonious tone is warranted at all, but his point is valid. And you did kind of goad him into posting an elaborate and mean response by needlessly disputing his first short and polite response.

Re: proper use of apportation: doubts

PostPosted: Monday, 6th June 2011, 03:16
by dolphin
XuaXua, you're right. I shouldn't have supported KL's tone. I apologize for it.

However, the content of his post is true, even wrapped in a bad tone. Giving a percent chance or probability that Apportation will pull something out of deep water means is equivalent to letting players Apport it on the first try. Surely a player wouldn't attempt to Apport something in high-tension environment: they would do it when it was safe to use Apport freely. At that point they could repetitively attempt to Apport the item until the probability (t tries * 1/P probability) approaches 1. Unless the probability were so low that the player would stand a good chance of triggering the OOD spawn, then the cost of spamming a L1 spell into grind infinity approaches 0, with the exception of normal hungering over time (wear Sust). Percent chance in this case = Grinding, which goes against the philosophy.

If I'm wrong that Percent Chance for Apportation -> Grinding, I will be glad to listen and respond.