How the Gr is not OP?

[lifecoder]

Gargoyles are not OP, there are so much balance in Crawl. However it feels extremely easy to maintain it, mostly because its unmatchable AC and innate resistances. It should have some drawback, but I'm struggling to find it.

Have 2 games in parallel: a caster Gr in a robe and a heavy Formicide in pretty the same point of the game (Gr is in Zot:3, Fr has not go Depth yet).

  Code:

Rorakcsh the Phalangite (Formicid Fighter)         Turns: 84396, Time: 09:59:41

HP:   220/220 (222) AC: 28    Str: 22      XL:     26   Next: 60%
MP:   26/26         EV: 14    Int:  8 (11) God:    Ru [******]
Gold: 4958          SH: 23    Dex: 21      Spells: 6 memorised, 11 levels left


  Code:

Korga the Petrodigitator (GrEE)                   Turns: 126613, Time: 12:58:08

Health: 5/153      AC: 42    Str:  9    XL:     27
Magic:  7/52       EV: 19    Int: 35    God:    Vehumet [******]
Gold:   4540       SH:  9    Dex: 10    Spells: 14 memorised, 12 levels left


Aaaand.. fragile mage has 1.5x more AC than plate-wearing melee slasher, more EV, and just was not lucky with a good mid sized shield to beat Formicide's stats completely.

[nago]

Comparing a char who has cleared one xp-dense area like depths and two floors of zot against one who hasn't isn't really possible, the differences are huge.

Nevertheless, the Fo has already 69 hp more...which is the most important stat when you're comparing living char against dead ones.

[emikaela]

species are not intended to be balanced against each other, and gr is supposed to be one of the easier ones. working as intended.

[partial]

The only real drawback is their low HP

[duvessa]

I believe Gr is in the bottom half of species. Having bad HP is really bad, you are better than the majority of species against adders but worse against most other early monsters.

[ichbins]

It should have some drawback, but I'm struggling to find it.

Low hp, especially in combination with the vulnerability to shatter, lrd, boredom and the like. they die rarely, but if they die, they die very fast.

I actually like playing them for the fact that I have a race that really shines "pre-post-lair" and probably they are one of the easier races, but I think that's okay. They still can die, somehow.

you are better than the majority of species against adders but worse against most other early monsters.

Actually you are better than the majority of species to most other early monsters because you are immune to poison, basilisks, can deal with hydras, have enough defenses to stand against yaks, don't have to fear electric eels etc

[nago]

Early monsters are kobolds, jackals, orcs and so on.

The time a char face hydras and basiliks usually he has enough experience, items and consumables they aren't an issue no matter how shitty the combo is (and even in the case he can't deal with them, he can just go away because they're speed 10).
Eels I have no idea how can be feared, as they're limited to move in very clear area.

[MainiacJoe]

species are not intended to be balanced against each other, and gr is supposed to be one of the easier ones. working as intended.

My second win after MiBe was a GrEE. I was glad of the leniency the various resistances and AC bonuses provided.

[tabstorm]

Here is how you can argue Gr is mediocre (or worse):

The only real challenge in the game is over at D:8 or so. Gr isn't amazing on early floors floors due to low max HP, and your AC bonus does not come in yet. Pretty much everyone has similar defenses on early floors, except races with penalties/bonuses to EV or AC, so all that matters is max HP, move speed, and not having those penalties (This is why Ogres are bad. Note that trolls are still good because of Claws 3). Thus, we say that Gr is mediocre at best.

On the remaining floors, you will almost never lose a fight because the game is so easy, regardless of what race you are, if you are willing to devote time to pack splitting and such behaviors. What matters is minimizing your chance to lose a fight due to bad rolls. The higher your HP is, the less chance there is of this happening, unless (again) you have slot restrictions, no move speed bonus, or AC/EV penalties (and aren't a Troll). If you think this argument is bad, lure enemies more, and basically be more optimal. Keep in mind that this sort of argument (when applied to past-early-game) is over epsilon of win probability in hypothetical optimal games that don't tend to happen in reality.

[onget]

Except when you are fighting with the orc priest, Gr is always good.

[archaeo]

basically be more optimal.

~tabstorm, 2015

[sanka]

... so all that matters is max HP, move speed, and not having those penalties (This is why Ogres are bad.

It's a little bit confusing to me. Ogres has the best HP in the game, and have average movement speed. Why are ogres considered bad? I have always found them a little bit easier than most races (altough of course there are lot of races that still much stronger).

[Sar]

Why did you omit what kind of equipment does your Fo actually wear? 28 AC is fairly low for an endgame plate character. Bad luck with scrolls/aux items?

[tabstorm]

Because you have almost no defense for a fair amount of the game. Your defense is: hope that you kill enemies before they kill you and then rest. I guess this is true of other races but it is much more exaggerated with Ogre.

[mopl]

Note that Gr have infinite rPois, and adders are the #6 top killer...

[tasonir]

Life protip: When arguing that gargoyles are overpowered, don't link one that is currently sitting at 5/153 hp.

In short, they're balanced by having terrible hp, which does have a serious impact. Yes, they'll have good defenses, that's the design of them.

[partial]

Here is how you can argue Gr is mediocre (or worse):

The only real challenge in the game is over at D:8 or so. Gr isn't amazing on early floors floors due to low max HP, and your AC bonus does not come in yet. Pretty much everyone has similar defenses on early floors, except races with penalties/bonuses to EV or AC, so all that matters is max HP, move speed, and not having those penalties (This is why Ogres are bad. Note that trolls are still good because of Claws 3). Thus, we say that Gr is mediocre at best.

On the remaining floors, you will almost never lose a fight because the game is so easy, regardless of what race you are, if you are willing to devote time to pack splitting and such behaviors. What matters is minimizing your chance to lose a fight due to bad rolls. The higher your HP is, the less chance there is of this happening, unless (again) you have slot restrictions, no move speed bonus, or AC/EV penalties (and aren't a Troll). If you think this argument is bad, lure enemies more, and basically be more optimal. Keep in mind that this sort of argument (when applied to past-early-game) is over epsilon of win probability in hypothetical optimal games that don't tend to happen in reality.

actually I think Gr are really strong early-game

free rPois and the GDR boost render most early threats harmless

[tabstorm]

I think Gargoyles are a top 8 or so race, I'm just saying you could argue they're bad in the way I outlined if you think nothing but move speed followed by max HP really matters.

[lifecoder]

Why did you omit what kind of equipment does your Fo actually wear? 28 AC is fairly low for an endgame plate character. Bad luck with scrolls/aux items?

Hm, really, not sure what kind of armour it was. On the same stage Fo found a kind enough Gold Dragon which shared his hide, and pump AC to 40. But the Gr's AC still shines as for a dedicated caster.

HP argument is nice for the early game, looks like I've been extremely lucky to pull the second run with it. Then loose 6 or 7 Wz (probably because EE pull a lot of early game with the Stone Skin), and only reach past lair when focused melee fighting backgrounds prior to spellcasting.

[kroki]

Here is how you can argue Gr is mediocre (or worse):
The only real challenge in the game is over at D:8 or so..

when this meme will die

[dpeg]

Here is how you can argue Gr is mediocre (or worse):
The only real challenge in the game is over at D:8 or so..

when this meme will die

Nobody knows but it won't die after D:8 for sure.

[agentgt]

On a tangental note I have been playing a ton of chaos knights and I thought for sure Gr would cause better tension xom effects since they have lower max HP but I swear Xom hates Gr.

It seems that species that normally do really well in the beginning maintain higher percentage of HP more often have less good xom amusing things happen (xom is sort of like a really crappy version of Ru reciprocation). Xom apparently does not like AC. This extends to HO and Mi or any other AC tank. These species in theory (since they are stronger) should be easier to stay with xom but I find abandoning xom early better for these species. Gr seems to be one of the worse because they have low HP but high AC so you can still die fairly easy to a bad AC bypassing xom effect.

So with Xom... Gr is not that OP (there is still no GrCK 15 runer.. sort of shocking but not.. I tried but died on the 15th rune to a hellion)

[Sar]

HO and Mi have great HP, though! Mi even has a great Dodging apt!