Why are DE considered bad?

[Maels]

From what I've read on the forum it seems that deep elves are seen as a really mediocre race. Why is that? Is it just their bad defenses? Because to me they seem like a pretty good race if you want to go pure caster.

[duvessa]

the most important factors for species strength are speed and hp, DE has crap hp, and unlike sp/fe, doesn't have speed to make up for it

[Sandman25]

From what I've read on the forum it seems that deep elves are seen as a really mediocre race. Why is that? Is it just their bad defenses? Because to me they seem like a pretty good race if you want to go pure caster.

That happens because people talk about all backgrounds at once. For example, Tr is good because TrXX is good no matter what XX is. DEFi or DEWn are bad, DEFE or DECj are good.

[Maels]

the most important factors for species strength are speed and hp, DE has crap hp, and unlike sp/fe, doesn't have speed to make up for it

And doesn't the fact that they can get defensive spells online faster make up for that?

[bel]

I never had problems with DE in normal games, but then I don't play crap races like Mu (I do play Na occasionally).

If you play DECj/DEFE, you can pretty much kill everything from afar without letting it touch you, so your HP doesn't really matter much. DE has a ton of MP and good int. However, your mistakes are magnified, so DE is still mediocre.

My DE-- speedruns were very frustrating, since I died in the later game because of low HP, while early game was a breeze. Which is very annoying. At least if you die early you can start a new run easily. I then just gave up on DE, but DEFE for example, is decently strong for speedrunning.

[dowan]

They seem like a good race if you want to go pure caster, the problem here is that they are a good race for playing in a sub optimal way. And probably not even the best at that!

However, while they may not be objectively the best race to win at crawl, they are a good race for playing a blasty caster with good apts, who can pick up probably any spells they want.

Really, the fact that you have decided to play a 'pure caster' has already locked you into a really mediocre playstyle (From the perspective of winning, not having fun). So you shouldn't be surprised that the races which are good for this mediocre playstyle are also mediocre themselves. But, that should also not stop you from playing them if you find it fun. Just don't go recommending them as the best way to win the game or anything.

[Siegurt]

They seem like a good race if you want to go pure caster, the problem here is that they are a good race for playing in a sub optimal way. And probably not even the best at that!

However, while they may not be objectively the best race to win at crawl, they are a good race for playing a blasty caster with good apts, who can pick up probably any spells they want.

Really, the fact that you have decided to play a 'pure caster' has already locked you into a really mediocre playstyle (From the perspective of winning, not having fun). So you shouldn't be surprised that the races which are good for this mediocre playstyle are also mediocre themselves. But, that should also not stop you from playing them if you find it fun. Just don't go recommending them as the best way to win the game or anything.

I actually find my favorite DE's are DEEN, they make pretty tolerable enchanters and stabbing is damn good.

[dowan]

They do have a good hex apt don't they... I've never tried that, but it does seem reasonable. And you could branch into whatever other magic you wanted, helping with the problem enchanters often have with the more hex resistant foes, without having to resort to dirty melee combat.

[Maels]

They seem like a good race if you want to go pure caster, the problem here is that they are a good race for playing in a sub optimal way. And probably not even the best at that!

However, while they may not be objectively the best race to win at crawl, they are a good race for playing a blasty caster with good apts, who can pick up probably any spells they want.

Really, the fact that you have decided to play a 'pure caster' has already locked you into a really mediocre playstyle (From the perspective of winning, not having fun). So you shouldn't be surprised that the races which are good for this mediocre playstyle are also mediocre themselves. But, that should also not stop you from playing them if you find it fun. Just don't go recommending them as the best way to win the game or anything.

Oh I see, so the issue is more with the pure caster playstyle than with DE themselves. And why is that considered bad? I'm guessing because once you get low on mana you're pretty much screwed.

[archaeo]

it's more of a meme than a statement of truth, Maels. While it's suboptimal to be "pure" anything when it comes to Crawl, the game is still reliably winnable if you kill most enemies with magic.

[duvessa]

the most important factors for species strength are speed and hp, DE has crap hp, and unlike sp/fe, doesn't have speed to make up for it

And doesn't the fact that they can get defensive spells online faster make up for that?

There are no defensive spells that account for bad hp until level 8 (ddoor and to a lesser extend borgnjor's). By the time you are at that point your species doesn't matter anymore anyway.

[dowan]

it's more of a meme than a statement of truth, Maels. While it's suboptimal to be "pure" anything when it comes to Crawl, the game is still reliably winnable if you kill most enemies with magic.

Yes, so we agree... it's not really a meme, saying 'conjurations make you lose' would be a meme. Trying to go pure magic is quite suboptimal if your goal is to win crawl.
But who cares? Not playing a MiBe is suboptimal if you're trying to win, but I certainly wouldn't say everyone should just always play a MiBe. Just trying to answer the OP's question.

[Lasty]

Just to reiterate the helpful information in the thread:
* HP is very important and DEs have low HP. Having low HP means having low fault tolerance.
* Nothing else about DEs makes up for having low HP.
* Magic is a fine offensive choice in general, and DEs are particularly good at it. Overfocusing on offense means lower fault tolerance, and many players do just that in order to attempt to compensate for low HP, thereby driving their character's fault tolerance even lower.

[archaeo]

Yes, so we agree... it's not really a meme, saying 'conjurations make you lose' would be a meme. Trying to go pure magic is quite suboptimal if your goal is to win crawl.

It's a meme insofar as it's an oft-repeated chunk of text, the whole "casters are suboptimal" thing, and it's an idea I've watched spread through the Crawl community at an increasing rate since I started paying attention to it. But let's not argue about what "memes" are.

One of the issues is "casters" and "pure casters," both of which are labels that we use really inconsistently. I've played plenty of characters that killed 100% of actually threatening monsters with magic, so I'd call that a "caster," maybe even a "pure caster," despite the fact that I also skilled defenses and killed popcorn with a melee weapon. It's obviously suboptimal to only use magic skills, but a balanced approach that focuses on magic to kill dudes is potentially more "optimal" than anything else, assuming Hypothetically Optimal play.

Nothing else about DEs makes up for having low HP.

I mean, other than the fact that they have no equipment slot restrictions like the other low-HP races, but that's a pretty minor thing.

[Sandman25]

Nothing else about DEs makes up for having low HP.

I mean, other than the fact that they have no equipment slot restrictions like the other low-HP races, but that's a pretty minor thing.

Well, having much more MP at XL 1 and very high starting Int is kind of extremely important. IIRC Flame Tongue deals up to 12 (or 13?) damage for XL 1 DEFE (With Int 17 and good aptitudes in Cj/Fire DEFE starts with almost maxed spell power for the spell)

[megawidget]

They're bad because High Elves exist. Which are arguably also bad, but still better than Deep Elves.

Deep Elves have starting stats of STR 5 INT 12 DEX 10 and an Int increase every 4 levels. Total 33 points at level 27 before background modifiers.
High Elves have starting stats of STR 7 INT 11 DEX 10 and a Dex or Int increase every 3 levels. Total 37.
If you're "lucky" you can get 20 Int with High Elves over 18 with Deep Elves (< 0.2% chance so don't hold your breath). If you're less lucky (~9% chance) you'll have 18 Int with the rest in Dex, but of course on average you'll have 15-16 Int, which is still more than compensated for by having enough Str to wear troll leather or maybe even ring mail, enough Dex to engage in melee when necessary, and 11.25% more hit points (likely even higher due to a non-negative Fighting aptitude). DE gets more MP initially, but natural MP is capped at 50 which anyone with a non-negative racial MP can eventually hit.

Edit: This is true for versions 0.16.1 and prior. There is no MP cap in trunk.
Edit #2: Racial MP will hit the cap before even getting halved.

[Sandman25]

DE gets more MP in theory, but due to MP past 50 getting halved that 8% increase won't feel like much.

MP cap is removed in trunk.

[megawidget]

DE gets more MP in theory, but due to MP past 50 getting halved that 8% increase won't feel like much.

MP cap is removed in trunk.

Yes, sorry, I'm talking specifically about 0.16.

[Blobbo]

There's a difference between "good for winrate" and "smooth to play".

DE are "bad" for winrate due to their low HP, but are very smooth to play once you've got the heavy hitting spells on line.
Gargoyles also aren't great for avoiding death in the early game but also very quickly yield a smooth game once you get past Lair.

Despite the high death rate, I feel they're pretty good for beginners since they fail fast - either you die in the first few levels and reroll, or you don't and end up actually spending most of your playtime with a solid character. Experienced players are more concerned with keeping every character alive so they won't favor them so much.

Compare with stuff like Fe and Mu which I haven't played much but I imagine are just straight up both bad for winrate and you're going to struggle with their challenges through most of the game.

[Igxfl]

There's a difference between "good for winrate" and "smooth to play".

Very true. Discussions about Species/Background/God quality in the Tavern usually drift towards pro-tier winrate maximization when ease of play is what most players probably care about.

[megawidget]

Speaking of trunk, am I hallucinating or is the racial MP bonus completely flat now? Being a DE is like wearing 2/9th of a ring of magical power!

[Berder]

I actually find my favorite DE's are DEEN, they make pretty tolerable enchanters and stabbing is damn good.

Shout out for DEEn!

[tabstorm]

I suggest trying any DE that is not in the Mage column. Now consider that e.g. MiCj can pick up any old weapon and do fine. Do you get it?

[Sandman25]

I suggest trying any DE that is not in the Mage column. Now consider that e.g. MiCj can pick up any old weapon and do fine. Do you get it?

Yes, we need more books in early dungeon, it was suggested by Berder IIRC. DE will happily use any.

[Maels]

Yeah that was what I was thinking. The MiCj picking up weapons thing is more a Melee (physical)> magic than Mi>DE. I mean, if book dropped more often we could also argue that a DEFi could drop the weapon he starts with and pick up any book he finds lying around.
But I get what you guys mean. I guess DE are more inconsistent and less reliable than other races because the low hp means one unlucky dmge roll could 1 shot you.

[dowan]

There's a difference between "good for winrate" and "smooth to play".

Very true. Discussions about Species/Background/God quality in the Tavern usually drift towards pro-tier winrate maximization when ease of play is what most players probably care about.

I agree, 'optimal' can be taken to mean winrate maximization. And almost all tavern advice is given from that perspective. This is why DE are considered bad here.

It would be nice if there were separate advice sections for "good for winrate" and "smooth to play".

[duvessa]

* Magic is a fine offensive choice in general, and DEs are particularly good at it. Overfocusing on offense means lower fault tolerance, and many players do just that in order to attempt to compensate for low HP, thereby driving their character's fault tolerance even lower.

Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but when I say "DE is bad", I'm not saying "DE is bad for bad players", I'm saying DE is bad even when played optimally. This argument is definitely not what I had in mind; I don't see how "fault tolerance" is relevant outside of speedrunning or whatever, and I don't think DE is particularly good at magic. What I do think is that you are wildly overrating skill aptitudes, in the same way as the people who claim DE is good.

[Maels]

* Magic is a fine offensive choice in general, and DEs are particularly good at it. Overfocusing on offense means lower fault tolerance, and many players do just that in order to attempt to compensate for low HP, thereby driving their character's fault tolerance even lower.

Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but when I say "DE is bad", I'm not saying "DE is bad for bad players", I'm saying DE is bad even when played optimally. This argument is definitely not what I had in mind; I don't see how "fault tolerance" is relevant outside of speedrunning or whatever, and I don't think DE is particularly good at magic. What I do think is that you are wildly overrating skill aptitudes, in the same way as the people who claim DE is good.

You don't think DE are particularly good at magic? what does being "good at magic" mean if not having good aptitudes for magic?

[KoboldLord]

Half of all species are below the median species, because that is what 'median' means. If you rank each species in power, you will have one fourth of all species in the bottom quartile, and each of those species can be fairly described as weak species. Deep elves isn't anywhere near as terrible power-wise as mummy, but the hp malus is actually a pretty major drawback and it probably is enough all by itself to knock them down quite a bit in the rankings simply because there are lots of middling species to drop past.

[MainiacJoe]

Tengus also have -2 HP. Are they also a weak race, or do their flight, auxiliary attacks, and good weapon apps make up for the low HP? I'm guessing that they are better than DE (I've never played either).

[mps]

Te > DE, imo, but they're close.

re: Fault tolerance, there's also luck tolerance to consider. For example, how exposed are you to bad altar placement or bad item generation? How would your guy do if he got shafted 3 floors in early d? etc.

[Sandman25]

I have just tested FE.
DE: Int 19, 6 MP, 1d10 Flame Tongue
HE: Int 18, 4 MP, 1d10
Te: Int 15, 4 MP, 1d10
Hu: Int 15, 3 MP, 1d9

I would take DE both for streaking and fun.

[tabstorm]

* Magic is a fine offensive choice in general, and DEs are particularly good at it. Overfocusing on offense means lower fault tolerance, and many players do just that in order to attempt to compensate for low HP, thereby driving their character's fault tolerance even lower.

Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but when I say "DE is bad", I'm not saying "DE is bad for bad players", I'm saying DE is bad even when played optimally. This argument is definitely not what I had in mind; I don't see how "fault tolerance" is relevant outside of speedrunning or whatever, and I don't think DE is particularly good at magic. What I do think is that you are wildly overrating skill aptitudes, in the same way as the people who claim DE is good.

Does the argument go like this:

1. DE isn't that much better at magic than HE, Dr, Hu, Sp, etc. on D:1-7 compared to the HP malus
2. The game ends at L:1
3. The rest is too trivial to count as a game

Not that I totally disagree. But, I had a fairly easy time with the "Play DE(FE) and don't go below 50% HP" challenge earlier with the increased MP pool (until I was too lazy to keep playing carefully). Perhaps it'd be completely trivial with the other 'good' magic races too if I wasn't too lazy to lure properly, and this whole argument is over epsilon of win probability anyway.

[njvack]

For me in a nutshell: it's not that DE is bad, it's that Dr is quite a lot better.

My first win was with a DE, though. Firestormed V:5. It was fun.

[duvessa]

i say DE is not particularly good at magic because
1. skill cost increases nutso fast with level so aptitudes aren't as good as they look like they should be; i see this with unspoiled players a lot, and have reason to believe that some devs don't quite understand it either
2. there are other things that make you better or worse at magic, like having hp (some people would also say str but i also think armour heavier than leather is way overrated)
like it's better than median at spells but doesn't remotely compare to dg dr dd sp in that regard, IMO; maybe I am just being nitpicky here, since I don't really know what Lasty meant by "particularly good", he might have just meant better than median

but yeah like most characters you can still play pretty braindead and do fine.

[radinms]

DE >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Te , sorry.

Te is pretty weak race, IMO.

[Utis]

No, they're not.

EDIT:

Tengus also have -2 HP. Are they also a weak race, or do their flight, auxiliary attacks, and good weapon apps make up for the low HP? I'm guessing that they are better than DE (I've never played either).

Even if going with Duvessa's classification, they're essentially speed 9 race. (With exceptions, like when there's a Titan or spriggan air mage around ...)

I don't always understand Duvessa's comments, but admittedly they do make me stop and think. I thought the early game is where advantages/disadvantages of a species matter most. And I also thought aptitudes also have their largest impact on the early game? Am I missing something?

In the early game, Tengu can afford to invest more into defence than other races. Their aux attacks have a large enough impact on their damage output that they're not crippling themselves when investing a lot more a lot earlier into dodging (and rarely armour) than other races. Their EV multiplier is also sizeable and makes that investment even more effective. In the early game, orc priests are more dangerous than for other races, but in my experience that's about it (for the early game).

EDIT2: I sometimes don't understand public opinion in the forums. If people think that DE are particularily good at damaging magic because of their aptitudes (I don't know whether that is true or not), then they should regard Tengu as even better, because they have even better aptitudes for it.

[bel]

A note on DE playstyle. When I play DEFE, I usually train defences (fighting and dodging, and shields up to 4 for a buckler) rather early (basically after getting sticky flame online). The main thing is that DE already has good int and aptitudes, so the first few magic levels are easily obtained, and you get decent spellpower. It is harder to get high spellpower on spells, (and spellpower is not too important for sticky flame anyway). So it is generally good to focus on defences at that point.

Later, however, you get back to magic and learn more spells (I usually play with Vehumet, but Kiku is good as well). DE has good aptitudes all around, so I generally train a lot of spellcasting and train two or three schools (some of cloud spells, iron shot, OOD etc.)

[byrel]

Yeah, I think aptitudes are more significant than duvessa. It isn't about getting higher levels in Fire Magic at the same time as someone else. It's about hitting your breakpoints sooner (so you have sticky flame to deal with that early mamba) and having your core up with room to diversify without risk. If you hit your starting book breakpoint at half the XP input, that means that in Lair you can have your core offense AND decent defenses trained. Or Invo if you have a god that benefits a lot from that. Or another spellset online for resistant monsters if you get lucky finds or Veh. Your choice, but good apts basically mean you have more options than a normal apt character, not higher spellpower.

[Sandman25]

Isn't it obvious that DEFE is better than TeFE??? +50% more MP, you have much lower chance to die to that pack of jackals you see after opening first door.

[Utis]

Isn't it obvious that DEFE is better than TeFE??? +50% more MP, you have much lower chance to die to that pack of jackals you see after opening first door.

Sure. But you also have and average of +2 in your conjurations+fire aptitudes and because of speed 9 a much lower chance to die to that ogre you find yourself adjacent to after going around a corner on dlvl 3. On dlvl 1 you also have a better chance of killing that hobgoblin even after you run out of MP and haven't even found a weapon yet.

(I'm not really invested into that point of discussion, though. My main point was against the opinion that Tengu would be a particularily "weak" race.)

[MainiacJoe]

2. The game ends at L:1

Not for modestly experienced players such as myself. We have figured out positioning, luring, fleeing, and other basic survival skills and can now get to L:1 with some sort of regularity. Beyond, L:1, though, there are so many new monsters, new spells, new items even that we didn't have the Evocs to use effectively before, that the game feels like it's just beginning. Crawl accomplishes is philosophy goal of having every death be a learning experience and not an unavoidable RNG fart, but the fact is that there is a lot of stuff to learn past L:1. I have died many, many more times past L:1 than have ascended, and I've scrupulously avoided extended areas.

What I think you mean is, before L:1 the character is weak enough that even optimal play can sometimes not be enough. But I'd say that "the game ends" not when your present character dies, but when you learn everything the game has to offer.

[byrel]

But I'd say that "the game ends" not when your present character dies, but when you learn everything the game has to offer.

Poetically put.

[Sandman25]

Isn't it obvious that DEFE is better than TeFE??? +50% more MP, you have much lower chance to die to that pack of jackals you see after opening first door.

Sure. But you also have and average of +2 in your conjurations+fire aptitudes and because of speed 9 a much lower chance to die to that ogre you find yourself adjacent to after going around a corner on dlvl 3. On dlvl 1 you also have a better chance of killing that hobgoblin even after you run out of MP and haven't even found a weapon yet.

(I'm not really invested into that point of discussion, though. My main point was against the opinion that Tengu would be a particularily "weak" race.)

Have you played Te? They don't have speed 9 when encountering Ogres around a corner. Also you should not fight a hobgoblin as weaponless DEFE, just retreat a couple of tiles and you will get 1 MP back (mana restore rate depends on max MP, another reason why DEFE is superior to TeFE).

[radinms]

Sandman, maybe people who say "Te is superior to DE" play another crawl.

[Utis]

Have you played Te? They don't have speed 9 when encountering Ogres around a corner. Also you should not fight a hobgoblin as weaponless DEFE, just retreat a couple of tiles and you will get 1 MP back (mana restore rate depends on max MP, another reason why DEFE is superior to TeFE).

Dude, I've experimented so much with early game Tengu, it borders on OCD. If you want to imply that I don't know what I'm talking about, you should ask: "Have you played DE?" You wouldn't even be wrong.

As a Te you start flying at the first sight of danger. If the Ogre doesn't one-shot you and nothing blocks your retreat to the stairs, you've made it. With regard to the hobgoblin, you're right. Just replace "hobgoblin" with "the last jackal still standing" or "that unlucky dlvl 1 adder", then.

I didn't know about MP restore rate. Thanks!

[Sandman25]

As a Te you start flying at the first sight of danger. If the Ogre doesn't one-shot you and nothing blocks your retreat to the stairs, you've made it.

And if the flight fails because of high failure chance, you can die. With DE you can retreat, wait for energy randomization to allow the ogre hit you (the attack takes 1.4 turn) and retreat.

[Utis]

Reading back (including who thanked whom for what type of comment, etc.), I'm getting the vibe that there's something different going on here. I don't know what, but I have a gut feeling that I don't want to care about it. So, I'm retreating from this DEFE vs. TeFE discussion.

The point I moderately cared about was against Te as a "weak race" in general. I prefer to play by branching into melee early. Whether they're better as "pure blaster types" or not is something that in the end doesn't really interest me. Spell hunger does matter somewhat for blaster casters, so that might be added for "DE >>>>>>> Te".

Thanks for playing.

[Sandman25]

Reading back (including who thanked whom for what type of comment, etc.), I'm getting the vibe that there's something different going on here. I don't know what, but I have a gut feeling that I don't want to care about it. So, I'm retreating from this DEFE vs. TeFE discussion.

The point I moderately cared about was against Te as a "weak race" in general. I prefer to play by branching into melee early. Whether they're better as "pure blaster types" or not is something that in the end doesn't really interest me. Spell hunger does matter somewhat for blaster casters, so that might be added for "DE >>>>>>> Te".

Thanks for playing.

I am a bad player with book Te. When I tried to branch early, I suffered from low HP and AC so it was easier to continue being a caster (Te have good aptitudes for that). Or maybe your "early" is later than my "early".

[byrel]

(including who thanked whom for what type of comment, etc.)

Wait what? ManiacJoe and I were each thanked for posts unrelated to this discussion. And randims was thanked by Sandman for a snarky one-liner. There really haven't been that many thanks in what's been mostly an argument between you and Sandman.

For what it's worth, I've had better luck with DE than Te. But I rarely use flight, so... that's undoubtedly related.