Is wearing FDA without rC a bad idea?

[nordetsa]

Because I think it is, even on characters like ogre. Or does the AC it provides justifies having -C? Since it's a body slot armor I imagine swapping tactics wouldn't work...

[ajon]

Pretty bad if a frost giant or ice dragon appears id think,

[Magipi]

That depends on your location. If you are still in Lair, I guess it is okay. And you have a chance to find some rC gear.

[bcadren]

To add to the note about Lair, keep a different body armour around in case you see an ice cave.

[tabstorm]

Yes.

[Sandman25]

Also Fannar is in Lair often

[nordetsa]

Hmm. I thought so.

On somewhat related note, is standard FDA better than artefact troll leather armors? The game I'm playing has Moon troll leather armor, and I'm wondering if using enough enchantmant scrolls on FDA would make it better than the artefact.

[duvessa]

moon troll leather is extremely good and its pretty unlikely for fda to be a better idea

[nordetsa]

moon troll leather is extremely good and its pretty unlikely for fda to be a better idea

Even if it's on full enchantment?

[duvessa]

the thing about 9 enchant armour scrolls is that you don't have them, especially if you are enchanting hats and cloaks first, which you should

[njvack]

I've spent a bunch of time with rC- (I had a silly ring and am terrible at remembering to swap jewelry) and it's not utter certain death. Was Og so had the metric ton of HP. Cold definitely hurts more.

Fighting Lom Lobon with rC- is still not something I would recommend, but somehow did not quite prove fatal to my character.

ANYHOW wear the moon troll armour, it is from the moon

[nordetsa]

Okay...but how about this?

  Code:

the +10 ice dragon armour of Summertime {rF- rC++ Int+2 Dex+5}

Just got this on Elf:3. The enchantment alone makes it worth to ditch the Moon armor right away, isn't it? Choosing armors always leaves me so confused....

[Odds]

Guide to choosing between two plausible armours:

1) Look at the total of your AC and EV.
2) Switch armours.
3) Look at the new total of your AC and EV. If it's gone up, your new armour is defensively better. Compensate a little for other useful properties (resists, etc.) - depending on how valuable they are. But not too much; The Hat of the Alchemist provides 8 useful resists, has a -2 enchantment, and I reckon is quite balanced - so it's unlikely you'll find resists worth more than 4 points of AC.

[Sphara]

Okay...but how about this?

  Code:

the +10 ice dragon armour of Summertime {rF- rC++ Int+2 Dex+5}

Just got this on Elf:3. The enchantment alone makes it worth to ditch the Moon armor right away, isn't it? Choosing armors always leaves me so confused....

That's a great piece of armour if you can overcome fire vulnerability by 2 points (3 points for Zot area). If not, I'd definitely go with the moon troll armour.

You should state what kind of ogre are you playing before anyone here can really say which armour is better. Trog character? Full character dump would help.
Moon troll leather is a fantastic armour and while ogres in general want to find a dragon armour asap, this makes an exception to that rule. Combined with easy spellcasting, super high regeneration and spirit shield, MTLA is overwhelmingly the best light armour in the game. If you have access to Ozocubu's Armour and Phase Shift, there are very few armours that can beat it.

PS: this advice has some subjective content because I like to play hybrids and very rarely save scrolls for something like gold dragon armour.

[nordetsa]

  Code:

Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.17-a0-1633-g92a3a4e (tiles) character file.

So Squishy the Shatterer (Ogre Berserker)          Turns: 37124, Time: 03:26:33

Health: 112/239    AC: 29    Str: 28    XL:     21   Next: 74%
Magic:  6/6        EV: 22    Int:  8    God:    Trog [******]
Gold:   753        SH:  0    Dex: 23    Spells: 0 memorised, 20 levels left

rFire  . . .     SeeInvis +     N - +9 giant spiked club (antimagic)
rCold  + + .     Clarity  .     w - +10 ice dragon armour of Summertime {rF- rC++ Int+2 Dex+5}
rNeg   + . .     SustAt   +     (no shield)
rPois  +         Gourm    .     (helmet restricted)
rElec  .         Spirit   .     P - +2 cloak {rF+}
rCorr  +         Warding  .     (gloves unavailable)
rMut   .         Stasis   .     (boots unavailable)
MR     ++...                    z - amulet of resist corrosion
Stlth  ..........               E - ring of Buschoshri {SustAt rPois MP-9 Dex+2 SInv}
                                k - ring of positive energy

@: very resistant to hostile enchantments, extremely unstealthy
A: unfitting armour, mutation resistance 1, tough skin 1
a: Burn Spellbooks, Berserk, Trog's Hand, Brothers in Arms, Renounce Religion
}: 2/15 runes: decaying, gossamer


You are on level 2 of the Depths.
You worship Trog.
Trog is exalted by your worship.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 8 branches of the dungeon, and seen 45 of its levels.
You have also visited: Labyrinth, Sewer, Volcano and Wizlab.

You have collected 4354 gold pieces.
You have spent 3601 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 I - the +7 giant club "Ivubb" {venom, rC+ Str+2}
   (Trog gifted it to you on level 15 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It poisons the flesh of those it strikes.
   
   It affects your strength (+2).
   It protects you from cold.
 N - a +9 antimagic giant spiked club (weapon)
Missiles
 b - 51 large rocks (quivered)
 x - 9 silver javelins
 O - 10 javelins
Armour
 w - the +10 ice dragon armour of Summertime (worn) {rF- rC++ Int+2 Dex+5}
   (You took it off a deep elf master archer on level 3 of the Elven Halls)   
   
   It affects your intelligence (+2).
   It affects your dexterity (+5).
   It makes you vulnerable to fire.
   It greatly protects you from cold.
 P - a +2 cloak of fire resistance (worn)
Rods
 R - a +3 rod of shadows (12/12)
   (You found it on level 8 of the Lair of Beasts)
 U - a +0 lightning rod (6/9)
   (You bought it in a shop on level 4 of the Orcish Mines)
Jewellery
 k - a ring of positive energy (left hand)
 z - an amulet of resist corrosion (around neck)
 A - a ring of ice
 E - the ring of Buschoshri (right hand) {SustAt rPois MP-9 Dex+2 SInv}
   (You found it on level 6 of the Dungeon)   
   
   [ring of sustain attributes]
   
   It sustains your strength, intelligence and dexterity.
   It affects your dexterity (+2).
   It protects you from poison.
   It affects your magic capacity (-9).
   It lets you see invisible.
Magical devices
 d - a wand of lightning
 i - a wand of disintegration (4)
 l - a wand of heal wounds (5)
 m - a wand of hasting (7)
 C - a wand of digging (4)
Scrolls
 a - 4 scrolls of fear
 e - 3 scrolls of recharging
 j - 4 scrolls of enchant armour
 q - 8 scrolls of identify
 s - 11 scrolls of remove curse
 D - a scroll of blinking
 J - 9 scrolls of magic mapping
 M - a scroll of fog
 Q - 9 scrolls of teleportation
Potions
 f - 6 potions of haste
 h - 8 potions of flight
 n - 4 potions of might
 p - 7 potions of heal wounds
 r - 2 potions of resistance
 t - 9 potions of curing
 v - 6 potions of invisibility
 T - 3 potions of cancellation
 V - a potion of agility
Miscellaneous
 F - a phantom mirror
Comestibles
 c - 19 bread rations
 g - 22 meat rations
 o - 3 chunks of flesh
 u - a beef jerky
 B - 13 fruits
 K - a slice of pizza


   Skills:
 * Level 20.6 Fighting
 - Level 24.0 Maces & Flails
 - Level 11.8 Throwing
 - Level 15.0 Armour
 - Level 15.4 Dodging
 - Level 8.3 Evocations


You have 20 spell levels left.
You don't know any spells.

Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (15/15)            Temple (0/1) D:5            Lair (8/8) D:8
  Swamp (4/4) Lair:4       Spider (4/4) Lair:4        Slime (0/6) Lair:8
    Orc (4/4) D:10            Elf (3/3) Orc:4        Vaults (5/5) D:14
  Crypt (0/3) Vaults:2     Depths (2/5) D:15       

Going melee-oriented build. Doubt I'm gonna go learn any spell.

[Sphara]

With trog as god, +9 antimagic GSC and that ice armour, MTLA really isn't your best bet. Saving EA scrolls for gold dragon armour would be a pretty good idea in this case.

Using that +7 giant club with MTLA would give you more HP, both rC and rF and also somewhat higher evasion in a cost of antimagic attack and higher AC. That would still be a very strong character with actual fire resistance. Question, is that the right way to go, I find hard to answer.

[njvack]

Eh, I dunno. Get one more swappable pip of rF and you're fine in that IDA. You have a boatload of HP (and you're going to pick up more) and you have silver javs to toss at orbs of fire (plus a couple potions of resistance to boot). If you can't get at least rF+, I'd switch to the moon armour for the orb vault.

I don't know if the moon armour or ice armour or highly-enchanted GDA would be strictly best, but you can win with any of them.

[Sandman25]

The Hat of the Alchemist provides 8 useful resists, has a -2 enchantment, and I reckon is quite balanced - so it's unlikely you'll find resists worth more than 4 points of AC.

This is off topic but the hat is the most unbalanced item in the game.

[njvack]

well, it is dirty

[tabstorm]

How is it unbalanced? I don't think it's that amazing unless you have no rF/rC.

[Sandman25]

How is it unbalanced? I don't think it's that amazing unless you have no rF/rC.

I guess we have different meaning for "unbalanced". Unbalanced does not mean that it makes you instantly unkillable. It is amazing item in late game and especially in extended when you don't care about -4 AC, now you can use any gear you want, all those +5 rings of slaying, amulet of regen and body armour.

[tasonir]

MTLA is probably the best armor in the game and should be worn by nearly everyone. But one exception would probably be people with anti-magic weapons, and who could instead have +10 randart ice dragon armors. You could use MTLA and the venom club instead, it's fairly close, but ultimately I imagine the IDA is slightly better.

[WingedEspeon]

I like the IDA if you have the rF to back it up. MTLA is amazing the time I wore it, but that was on a DEBE... On an ogre, your strength is so high you barely feel the encumberance, you have less AC from aux slots, and you have tons of HP so the extra effective HP from spirit is a smaller percentage of your health. Not that MTLA isn't still good, but I would rather have the IDA provided you can get rF+ even with it for zot. OOF's are manageable with only rF+ as an Og with good tactics.

[Sphara]

OOF's are manageable with only rF+ as an Od with good tactics.

Doable, yes. But the tactics better be damn good. Especially when we are talking about Trog character

[nordetsa]

OOF's are manageable with only rF+ as an Od with good tactics.

Doable, yes. But the tactics better be damn good. Especially when we are talking about Trog character

Well tbh all I did while clearing Z:5 was use haste wand on myself whenever I see OoF and start throwing rocks.

[njvack]

dude you had silver javs

[nordetsa]

dude you had silver javs

Oh yeah... I forgot.

[le_nerd]

Why are silver javs better than big rocks? If I understand correctly: javelin:10damage, silver:up to 1.75x damage for 17.5 damage on silver jav. Large Rock: base damage 20.

[Sandman25]

Silver javs are better, I fsimmed it some time ago. It's up to +150% extra damage.

[le_nerd]

Ok, I can accept that. But why are they better? Is it a bug? Wheres the error in my handwavey calculation?

[Sandman25]

I don't know either.
My guess is that OoF has very high AC, most damage is done with lucky rolls and actually luckiest rolls for silver javs deal higher damage than luckiest rolls for large rocks do. I remember my Tr dealt 126 damage to OoF once with large rock, that could be about 60 with javelin and extra 0-90 from silver.

[Lasty]

Like UC and unlike other weapons, base damage isn't multiplied by the skill involved (Throwing); instead, it's added. The formula to determine the effective base damage is base thrown object damage + Throwing skill. After that, multiplier effects like Fighting, stats, and brand apply. As such, you have to have extremely low Throwing for (10 + Throwing) * 1.75 to be less than 20 + Throwing.

And then there's AC, as Sandman25 says.

[WingedEspeon]

Like UC and unlike other weapons, base damage isn't multiplied by the skill involved (Throwing); instead, it's added. The formula to determine the effective base damage is base thrown object damage + Throwing skill. After that, multiplier effects like Fighting, stats, and brand apply. As such, you have to have extremely low Throwing for (10 + Throwing) * 1.75 to be less than 20 + Throwing.

And then there's AC, as Sandman25 says.

Wait, so UC doesn't gain a mulktiplyer from high UC skill as well as the modified base damage?

[Sandman25]

The formula to determine the effective base damage is base thrown object damage + Throwing skill.

Can we change description for large rocks/javelins/tomahawks/stones then? I think the difference between "base damage: 10" and "base damage: 10 + Throwing" is huge, for melee weapons base damage 10 means that the weapon deals roughly half damage of a weapon with base damage 20 but for throwing 27 large rock deals only 27% more damage than a plain javelin: (20 + 27) / (10 + 27) = 1.27

Edit. Also it explains why tomahawks are very good too, (20 + 27) / (6 + 27) = 1.42, large rocks deal only 42% more damage than a tomahawk.

[njvack]

Good to know; I had also noticed that with high throwing, tomahawks kill stuff quite fast.

[Siegurt]

How did people not know that about throwing? I know I complained about how overpowered it was when it came to be originally

Although they did take the form bonus away from throwing damage at least (!lignification used to be +10 base damage for thrown weapons woot!)

[WingedEspeon]

There would also need to be a note about the stones only throwing stepdown. Without the stones only throwing stepdown, Throwing would be REALLY OP.

[duvessa]

Like UC and unlike other weapons, base damage isn't multiplied by the skill involved (Throwing); instead, it's added. The formula to determine the effective base damage is base thrown object damage + Throwing skill. After that, multiplier effects like Fighting, stats, and brand apply. As such, you have to have extremely low Throwing for (10 + Throwing) * 1.75 to be less than 20 + Throwing.

And then there's AC, as Sandman25 says.

Wait, so UC doesn't gain a mulktiplyer from high UC skill as well as the modified base damage?

Correct.

There would also need to be a note about the stones only throwing stepdown. Without the stones only throwing stepdown, Throwing would be REALLY OP.

Well tomahawks don't have the stepdown, so...it is.

[Sprucery]

How did people not know that about throwing?

Well, most people don't read code. And if people don't even notice double damage... :)