Early Game Brands

[ajon]

I'm kind of curious what brands people prioritize in the early game? Usually the weapons aren't too stellar so the brand makes a big difference. Its not too uncommon I think to find poison dagger, elec whip, etc. which can all be decent. I know elec is great for almost everything but is the poison a better bet early on? What if you had a draining weapon? What do most people prefer over the others and why?

[daggaz]

Poison, elec and draining are all great. I'll take the first one I find in my weapon category and put a few enchants on it if at all possible. If I found both and they were of equal value? Would probably go 1. Elec, 2. Poison (kills enemies after you run/they blink away), 3. Drain. For slower weapons, flame and ice are fine, elec still shines (elec is just a solid brand all around) and drain can carry you well into the depths. If I am playing an octopode or some other low AC species, I will heavily prioritize protection, regardless of what kind of weapon I find it on.

[Magipi]

Its not too uncommon I think to find poison dagger, elec whip, etc. which can all be decent.

An elec whip is not "decent", it is a truly great weapon that can serve you even in the late game. To mention it in the same sentence with a poison dagger is an insult.

Elec is much-much better on a small weapon than (almost) any other brand. There are just 2 brands that can be compared to elec:
- Pain, but it is only good if you have necro skill
- Distortion, but it is extremely annoying, and as the game develops, more and more dangerous (to yourself).

[Sandman25]

Distortion, but it is extremely annoying, and as the game develops, more and more dangerous (to yourself).

It depends on character. A caster can be happy when monsters are blinked away or even teleported out of melee range.

[Magipi]

Distortion, but it is extremely annoying, and as the game develops, more and more dangerous (to yourself).

It depends on character. A caster can be happy when monsters are blinked away or even teleported out of melee range.

Pure casters practically do not exist in Crawl, unless you are running another crazy challenge again

[radinms]

Distortion is one of the best brand.

[wizzzargh]

Elec is better than poison for actual tabtabtab fighting with weapon skill, but even with a 0-skill poison weapon you can kill normally untouchable things with patience and running away. I like doing this to Orc Warlords and Knights when I have a weak character trying to get the Orc shops early, and it's good for picking off Yak packs and similar on the run.

[Sandman25]

Pure casters practically do not exist in Crawl, unless you are running another crazy challenge again

I was not talking about pure casters. Not many casters can kill a hill giant with melee and sometimes you have no choice but have to melee it.

[dynast]

i like poison and draining on evasive and versatile characters, elec and distortion on heavy melee/throwing characters.

[dowan]

I think early game, with 0 skill or low skill weapons poison is actually better. Elec doesn't always proc, and in the early game when it does it's probably overkill. Poison seems to proc on every hit, and since the enemies have such low HP at that point, it kills them pretty quickly. Usually with a 0 skill poison dagger I can just jab anything 3-4 times and walk away, with the elec dagger I might one shot a guy one time, and have to hit the next one 6 or 7 times.

I haven't ever fsimmed it though, I'm only going of 'feel'.

[Berder]

Yeah, I prefer early game venom over elec, but would carry both, using elec against enemies with rPois. Poison is more reliable (elec triggers 1/3 of the time, venom triggers 1/2) and if you're able to poison kite, it's actually more damage.

Pure casters practically do not exist in Crawl, unless you are running another crazy challenge again

I was not talking about pure casters. Not many casters can kill a hill giant with melee and sometimes you have no choice but have to melee it.

Do you know the wield/unwield trick? Unwield and wield your weapon (a fast action) until the hill giant takes a swing at you. Then step back and you'll generally get a space between you and him which you can use to go upstairs.

[Sandman25]

Do you know the wield/unwield trick? Unwield and wield your weapon (a fast action) until the hill giant takes a swing at you. Then step back and you'll generally get a space between you and him which you can use to go upstairs.

No, I didn't know it, thanks. No, I am not going to use it.

[Lasty]

venom brand applies on 50% of hits, elec on 33%.

[Sprucery]

I haven't ever fsimmed it though, I'm only going of 'feel'.

Does fsim even work with poison?

[dowan]

Probably not.

Do venom weapons just add poisoned status, or do they also do a chunk of poison damage on proc? The question also applies to needles, if I hit a guy with 4 or 5 poison needles, and stop getting the 'more poisoned' messages, are the needles doing anything at all?

[Siegurt]

Probably not.

Do venom weapons just add poisoned status, or do they also do a chunk of poison damage on proc? The question also applies to needles, if I hit a guy with 4 or 5 poison needles, and stop getting the 'more poisoned' messages, are the needles doing anything at all?

No extra proc damage (although the creaure does take poison status damage before they get a turn)

Fsim doesn't account for poison damage.

Needles also don't do direct damage (except for curare) and poison status again happens before the monster gets a turn.

if you aren't getting 'more poisoned' messages you might be failing your roll, but yes you might have maxed out their poison stacks so you aren't doing anything.

[Sandman25]

Do venom weapons just add poisoned status, or do they also do a chunk of poison damage on proc? The question also applies to needles, if I hit a guy with 4 or 5 poison needles, and stop getting the 'more poisoned' messages, are the needles doing anything at all?

Max poison level is 4, you should stop throwing needles when it is reached. I reported an extensive test with my crawl about a month ago.

[Sprucery]

Max poison level is 4, you should stop throwing needles when it is reached.

But you don't really know when it is reached (without your mod), do you? You see the "gets even sicker" messages, but you don't know when the level decreases (until it is completely healthy again).

[Sandman25]

Max poison level is 4, you should stop throwing needles when it is reached.

But you don't really know when it is reached (without your mod), do you? You see the "gets even sicker" messages, but you don't know when the level decreases (until it is completely healthy again).

It means you need to get at least 4 messages about monster getting (more) poisoned.

[Sprucery]

But can it heal from level 3 to level 2, for example, before you get the 4 messages, or does it only heal straight to unpoisoned status?

[dowan]

Why is there even a limit on poison stacking on enemies? Removing that limit might help poison be more relevant later in the game.

Also, is there any such limit for the player? It doesn't seem like it, but then how often do you get badly poisoned with full HP?

[Sandman25]

But can it heal from level 3 to level 2, for example, before you get the 4 messages, or does it only heal straight to unpoisoned status?

Yes, it can decrease poison level but no message is generated.

[Sprucery]

Yes, it can decrease poison level but no message is generated.

That's what I thought. So there's actually no way for the player to know when the monster has 4 levels of poisoning. Best to keep those needles coming.

[Sandman25]

That's what I thought. So there's actually no way for the player to know when the monster has 4 levels of poisoning. Best to keep those needles coming.

No, best to start throwing javelins without switching from blowgun.

[Sprucery]

But if you have javelins, it's probably best to just start throwing them and forget the blowgun :)

[Sandman25]

But if you have javelins, it's probably best to just start throwing them and forget the blowgun

It depends on monster AC I think. By the way, do needles and javelins have the same chance to hit?

[ajon]

I cant really think of a monster who can survive 4 levels of poison long enough to recover from it in the early game tbh.

[Rast]

Max poison level is 4, you should stop throwing needles when it is reached. I reported an extensive test with my crawl about a month ago.

I had no idea this was a thing. Thought you could just keep stacking poison on. Much like monsters stack it on the player.

Well, shit.

[le_nerd]

explains why blowguns start to get useless with the first yaks. Should be changed IMO to give players returns for early throwing training without jav/tomahawks.

[dowan]

The duration at least should keep increasing, although I'd be even happier if it caused more dps too. Still, a 0 skill blowgun is already absurdly useful, so maybe maximum poison level could depend on skill (although that kind of makes no sense, from a realism perspective...)

[ajon]

I don't think needlestabbing makes much sense from that perspective either though?

[dowan]

Which needlestabbing do you mean? Making an enemy vulnerable with needles and high throwing skill, and stabbing with a dagger, or hitting a stabbable enemy with a needle?

[ajon]

Hitting stabbable enemy with a needle.

[cerealjynx]

Chaos, if Yuif's quarterstaff turns out to have a +4 enchant on it.

[mps]

imo, venom > elec > drain, pre-lair, but any of the three usually gets you where you're going if you find it on a whip, dagger, or spear. Poison is just the safest way to deal with early D monsters among effects available via melee weapons.

[Sandman25]

Venom is useless vs undead and bad vs adders/crimson imps/ice beast/phantom warriors etc. Electro is useless vs sky beasts and that's it (you kill electric eels with a blowgun anyway). Speaking about blowgun, dagger of electro + blowgun is a combo which takes out everything pre-Lair.

Personally I don't mind wielding distortion if I cannot find electro.

[ajon]

crimson imps are affected by poison in trunk. Its not great because of their regen, but it can help when they blink away at very low hp. Of course, elec would probably just kill them before that happened.

[Sandman25]

crimson imps are affected by poison in trunk. Its not great because of their regen, but it can help when they blink away at very low hp. Of course, elec would probably just kill them before that happened.

I know. This is why I used "bad" instead of "useless".

Edit. Oops, adders don't have rPois.

[mps]

Yes, I'm aware of how poison works in current trunk. Against everything that actually matters pre-lair, with the exception of wights and phantoms, venom gives you better damage per attack than electrocution, if you're willing to wait. And why not if that's what it takes to get through early d? Venom is in fact quite effective against adders, even though they still get some attacks off on you as you retreat. Indeed, I would say the effectiveness against adders is one of the strongest points of the venom brand.

Indeed, there are some monster on which venom doesn't work. The good news is you can carry more than one weapon.

[ajon]

I generally carry Crazy Yiufs staff for undead/imps early game. May be a few more things that cannot berserk but not sure off the top of my head

[Sprucery]

I generally carry Crazy Yiufs staff for undead/imps early game. May be a few more things that cannot berserk but not sure off the top of my head

Generally? Most of my games don't have Crazy Yiuf.

[ajon]

Hmm. I find him fairly often. Could just be confirmation bias though.