I think we learned an important lesson today.

[Grimm]

Grim reads Oglaf
my life is a lie

I also read Beachcombing's Bizarre History.

[knaveightt]

Something I've learned last month:

If you meet Fannar in the lair and decide to read a scroll of silence, the ol' goof might just zap a wand o' poly he snatched earlier and turn you into a fungus. Can't do much as a mushroom at that point...

Really, I'm not bitter.

[Sandman25]

There can be some gold in Orcish Mines which can be taken with Ash and Passwall only.

[Jabberwocky]

Snapping turtles are the stobor of the shoals.

[Sandman25]

Don't leave amulet of gourmand in stash if you wear conservation with Ash. Yes, it's fun to evoke Inv or cast Haste but it costs much food. You will eat your last bread ration on the way to the stash. Time to lose scrolls in Vaults now

[Grimm]

There can be some gold in Orcish Mines which can be taken with Ash and Passwall only.

Or magic mapping and wand of digging.

[Sandman25]

There can be some gold in Orcish Mines which can be taken with Ash and Passwall only.

Or magic mapping and wand of digging.

Yes, that could be a good use of magic mapping scrolls if there are many.

[Sandman25]

Cloaks can be swappable too. I have rPois at ratskin cloak and Inv at cloak of darkness so I have already swapped them about 10 times in Lair. 3 turns is not that much time and surprisingly it works even in the open terrain.

[FalconNL]

No matter how similar they might appear at 1 AM, robes and cloaks are not actually the same thing. So spend a second or two and verify whether that Robe of Night you're about to spend 1300 gold on is supposed to be worn on top of or instead of your plate mail. Stores in Dungeon Crawl do not have a 30-day return policy. Even if you still have the receipt and walked out of the store not five seconds ago. And don't think you'll be able to open up your own store and sell it to some other hapless adventurer either, because the storekeepers have a strict monopoly and will not let you in on their turf.

On a related note, don't play Crawl at 1 AM.

[Sandman25]

Slings is really weird skill. With Str 9 and Dex 20 you have 0.7 aut per attack with Slings 13, why to train it more - to increase average damage per attack from 7 at Sling 13 to 7.6 at Slings 27??? +4 Slings aptitude of Halfling is not a big deal after all, Kobold's +2 is not much worse because you don't need to train the skill much.

[crate]

well for one thing you want more than 9 str for slings....

[Sandman25]

well for one thing you want more than 9 str for slings....

I tried Str 8, 9 and 10 and didn't see much difference. I haven't tried 14-15 though. My Ha is unlikely to have that much since I need Int for spells.

[Sandman25]

Yes, hi Str is very useful with Slings.

Below are tables for Sling 0, 9 vs Hydra (AC 0)
Str 9, Dex 20:

  Code:

         2 |      5,2 |     18 |      94% |   4,9 |   104  |  0,96 |      4,7
         3 |      5,4 |     20 |      95% |   5,1 |   101  |  0,99 |      5,1
         4 |      5,8 |     20 |      96% |   5,6 |    98  |  1,02 |      5,7
         5 |      6,2 |     22 |      96% |   5,9 |    95  |  1,05 |      6,2
         6 |      6,4 |     24 |      96% |   6,1 |    92  |  1,09 |      6,7
         7 |      6,9 |     25 |      96% |   6,6 |    89  |  1,12 |      7,5
         8 |      7,2 |     23 |      96% |   6,9 |    86  |  1,16 |      8,1
         9 |      7,5 |     25 |      96% |   7,2 |    83  |  1,20 |      8,7
        10 |      7,5 |     25 |      96% |   7,3 |    80  |  1,25 |      9,1
        11 |      7,8 |     31 |      97% |   7,6 |    77  |  1,30 |      9,9
        12 |      7,9 |     30 |      96% |   7,6 |    74  |  1,35 |     10,3
        13 |      8,0 |     30 |      97% |   7,8 |    71  |  1,41 |     11,0
        14 |      8,2 |     28 |      97% |   8,0 |    70  |  1,43 |     11,4
        15 |      8,3 |     31 |      97% |   8,2 |    70  |  1,43 |     11,7
        16 |      8,5 |     33 |      97% |   8,3 |    70  |  1,43 |     11,9
        17 |      8,7 |     30 |      97% |   8,5 |    70  |  1,43 |     12,2
        18 |      8,9 |     32 |      97% |   8,7 |    70  |  1,43 |     12,4
        19 |      9,0 |     32 |      97% |   8,8 |    70  |  1,43 |     12,6
        20 |      9,2 |     32 |      97% |   9,0 |    70  |  1,43 |     12,8
        21 |      9,4 |     32 |      97% |   9,2 |    70  |  1,43 |     13,1
        22 |      9,4 |     42 |      97% |   9,2 |    70  |  1,43 |     13,1
        23 |      9,7 |     42 |      98% |   9,5 |    70  |  1,43 |     13,6
        24 |      9,9 |     39 |      98% |   9,7 |    70  |  1,43 |     13,9
        25 |      9,9 |     45 |      97% |   9,7 |    70  |  1,43 |     13,8
        26 |     10,1 |     35 |      98% |  10,0 |    70  |  1,43 |     14,2
        27 |     10,2 |     41 |      98% |  10,0 |    70  |  1,43 |     14,3

Str 14, Dex 20:

  Code:

    Slings | AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
         0 |      5,2 |     17 |      93% |   4,9 |   110  |  0,91 |      4,4
         1 |      5,4 |     18 |      94% |   5,1 |   107  |  0,94 |      4,8
         2 |      5,7 |     20 |      95% |   5,4 |   104  |  0,96 |      5,2
         3 |      6,0 |     21 |      95% |   5,8 |   101  |  0,99 |      5,7
         4 |      6,4 |     21 |      95% |   6,1 |    98  |  1,02 |      6,2
         5 |      6,7 |     24 |      95% |   6,4 |    95  |  1,05 |      6,8
         6 |      7,1 |     24 |      96% |   6,8 |    92  |  1,09 |      7,4
         7 |      7,5 |     28 |      96% |   7,2 |    89  |  1,12 |      8,1
         8 |      7,9 |     25 |      96% |   7,6 |    86  |  1,16 |      8,9
         9 |      8,5 |     31 |      97% |   8,3 |    83  |  1,20 |     10,0
        10 |      8,6 |     29 |      96% |   8,3 |    79  |  1,27 |     10,5
        11 |      8,9 |     30 |      97% |   8,6 |    76  |  1,32 |     11,3
        12 |      9,0 |     30 |      97% |   8,7 |    73  |  1,37 |     12,0
        13 |      9,1 |     39 |      97% |   8,9 |    70  |  1,43 |     12,7
        14 |      9,4 |     32 |      97% |   9,2 |    70  |  1,43 |     13,1
        15 |      9,2 |     31 |      97% |   9,0 |    70  |  1,43 |     12,9
        16 |      9,8 |     35 |      97% |   9,6 |    70  |  1,43 |     13,7
        17 |      9,8 |     36 |      97% |   9,5 |    70  |  1,43 |     13,6
        18 |     10,0 |     35 |      97% |   9,7 |    70  |  1,43 |     13,9
        19 |     10,4 |     41 |      97% |  10,1 |    70  |  1,43 |     14,5
        20 |     10,4 |     41 |      98% |  10,3 |    70  |  1,43 |     14,7
        21 |     10,7 |     43 |      97% |  10,5 |    70  |  1,43 |     15,0
        22 |     10,9 |     45 |      97% |  10,6 |    70  |  1,43 |     15,2
        23 |     11,1 |     42 |      97% |  10,9 |    70  |  1,43 |     15,5
        24 |     11,1 |     43 |      97% |  10,9 |    70  |  1,43 |     15,5
        25 |     11,2 |     44 |      97% |  11,0 |    70  |  1,43 |     15,7
        26 |     11,8 |     44 |      98% |  11,6 |    70  |  1,43 |     16,6
        27 |     11,9 |     46 |      97% |  11,6 |    70  |  1,43 |     16,5

Str 20, Dex 20:

  Code:

    Slings | AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
         0 |      6,1 |     20 |      94% |   5,8 |   110  |  0,91 |      5,3
         1 |      6,6 |     22 |      94% |   6,2 |   107  |  0,93 |      5,8
         2 |      7,0 |     24 |      95% |   6,7 |   104  |  0,96 |      6,4
         3 |      7,3 |     24 |      95% |   6,9 |   101  |  0,99 |      6,9
         4 |      7,7 |     26 |      96% |   7,4 |    98  |  1,02 |      7,6
         5 |      8,2 |     28 |      95% |   7,8 |    94  |  1,06 |      8,3
         6 |      8,6 |     36 |      96% |   8,3 |    91  |  1,10 |      9,2
         7 |      9,0 |     34 |      95% |   8,6 |    88  |  1,14 |      9,7
         8 |      9,5 |     34 |      96% |   9,2 |    85  |  1,18 |     10,8
         9 |     10,2 |     38 |      96% |   9,9 |    82  |  1,22 |     12,1
        10 |     10,3 |     38 |      96% |   9,9 |    78  |  1,28 |     12,7
        11 |     10,5 |     39 |      97% |  10,3 |    75  |  1,33 |     13,7
        12 |     11,0 |     40 |      97% |  10,6 |    72  |  1,39 |     14,8
        13 |     11,4 |     40 |      97% |  11,1 |    70  |  1,43 |     15,9
        14 |     11,5 |     45 |      97% |  11,2 |    70  |  1,43 |     16,0
        15 |     11,6 |     44 |      97% |  11,3 |    70  |  1,43 |     16,1
        16 |     11,6 |     41 |      97% |  11,4 |    70  |  1,43 |     16,2
        17 |     11,7 |     43 |      97% |  11,4 |    70  |  1,43 |     16,3
        18 |     12,3 |     43 |      97% |  11,9 |    70  |  1,43 |     17,1
        19 |     12,4 |     43 |      97% |  12,1 |    70  |  1,43 |     17,3
        20 |     12,6 |     44 |      97% |  12,3 |    70  |  1,43 |     17,6
        21 |     13,0 |     46 |      97% |  12,7 |    70  |  1,43 |     18,1
        22 |     13,3 |     48 |      97% |  13,0 |    70  |  1,43 |     18,5
        23 |     13,5 |     50 |      97% |  13,1 |    70  |  1,43 |     18,8
        24 |     13,7 |     52 |      98% |  13,4 |    70  |  1,43 |     19,2
        25 |     13,8 |     56 |      97% |  13,5 |    70  |  1,43 |     19,3
        26 |     14,1 |     48 |      98% |  13,9 |    70  |  1,43 |     19,8
        27 |     14,5 |     54 |      97% |  14,2 |    70  |  1,43 |     20,2

As you can see for slings 27 AvHitDam is 10.0 with Str 9, 11.6 with Str 14 and 14.2 with Str 20.

Also my testing made it clear that Sling skill 27 causes about 27% more damage than Sling skill 13 for any Str and any Sling enchantment (provided Dex is 20) so basically it has low priority after reaching min delay.

[joellercoaster]

Yesterday's lesson: although all deaths beyond a certain point *are* the player's fault, Crawl is capable of some very cheap shots even late in the game.

(They don't need fixing, they mean players need to be even more careful, but they can certainly make me not play for a week while the rage wears off.)

[Utis]

Yesterday's lesson: although all deaths beyond a certain point *are* the player's fault, Crawl is capable of some very cheap shots even late in the game.

(They don't need fixing, they mean players need to be even more careful, but they can certainly make me not play for a week while the rage wears off.)

Details! What exactly happened? Let us feel compassion and/or gloat in schadenfreude!

[joellercoaster]

Paralysis from afar while standing next to an Ettin Zombie and, uh, something else pointy. I went downstairs buffed up and at full HP, all the monsters were awake, and that was pretty much that.

Why I think it was my fault:

1. Stair-dipping is not in itself a terrible idea in 0.13 in my opinion, but if you do it and are using noisy combat techniques, it is much less safe - monsters are more likely to be awake when you go back down unexplored stairs.

[edit: Also, I think I remember there being a guanranteed move the first time you go downstairs onto a level, but not subsequent times. Is that still a thing? Because if so, neglecting this is also what killed me, and will change my opinion and behaviour when it comes to stair-dipping.]

2. I had access to more MR than I was using. If you don't want to experience sudden infuriating disaster, MR is a good idea.

[Kyronea]

Teleport is not always a reliable escape method. Sometimes it will place you in the worst possible spot:

Spoiler: show

(Wand was out of charges after that, and while I had recharge amongst my scrolls, I found it too late.)

[Sandman25]

I think dungeon level 8 is too late for identifying unknown scrolls. I usually do it at level 4 (magic mapping can help to find temple), the only exception is when I am going to worship Ash who automatically detects curse foo and remove curse.

[Kyronea]

I think dungeon level 8 is too late for identifying unknown scrolls. I usually do it at level 4 (magic mapping can help to find temple), the only exception is when I am going to worship Ash who automatically detects curse foo and remove curse.

It really is. See, I just generally prefer to avoid use-IDing scrolls after I've identified ID scrolls, because that way I don't waste any important scrolls when I need them. 'Course, knowing what I have is important too. I'm still adjusting from playing a Spriggan so much--I can't run away anywhere near as easily anymore and it's a bit of an adjustment to get used to normal movement speed again.

[Sandman25]

I think dungeon level 8 is too late for identifying unknown scrolls. I usually do it at level 4 (magic mapping can help to find temple), the only exception is when I am going to worship Ash who automatically detects curse foo and remove curse.

It really is. See, I just generally prefer to avoid use-IDing scrolls after I've identified ID scrolls, because that way I don't waste any important scrolls when I need them. 'Course, knowing what I have is important too. I'm still adjusting from playing a Spriggan so much--I can't run away anywhere near as easily anymore and it's a bit of an adjustment to get used to normal movement speed again.

Your approach requires being lucky on ID scrolls. I usually don't have enough ID scrolls to ID even all potions until Vaults or so.

[Sandman25]

Mnoleg can summon 5 Tentacled Monstrosities in a single cast.

  Code:

Mnoleg gestures.
You feel a surge of power!
The dungeon rumbles!
The tentacled monstrosity is moderately wounded.
Mnoleg is almost dead.
The tentacled monstrosity is severely wounded.
The tentacled monstrosity is moderately wounded.
The tentacled monstrosity is severely wounded. x2

Weird but last "x2" was missing in dump file, I added it manually after looking at Ctrl+P where it was present.

[joellercoaster]

Never learned it before now (I have these epiphanies from time to time): Leda's Liquefaction is really strong.

[Kyronea]

You might be killing yak squads fairly easily with Mystic Blast, but that storm dragon you just ran into on D:13 can still eat your face in two hits. Pay attention to Ashenzari's warning of "super strong monster" next time, goofball.

[joellercoaster]

Do not go into the Slime Pits, even for a second, without Clarity (or really good MR).

I just stuck my head in for a look - admittedly this is very unfortunate, but - in the first turn encountered four golden eyes which took turns chain-confusing me (I only had six potions of curing) while a series of jellies took turns gradually making me die.

It was actually funny watching the shining eye next to me stacking up bad mutations, knowing it didn't matter

(This is not a new lesson - I have no idea why I even looked in the portal, as soon as I did it I was internally shouting, "nooooooooo...")

[FalconNL]

When walking around in a volcano, do not assume that messages along the line of "The air gets thick with the scent of sulphur" are just flavor text. They are warnings. More specifically, they are warnings NOT to give in to curiosity and open the door that had me thinking "Why is there a door to small patch of land outside this bunker here?" Because the next thing you know, all of the air around you will be on fire. Fortunately, I barely managed to survive it, but it was a damn close call. Kudos to Zaba and due for the idea; I really should have seen that one coming.

[Kyronea]

Apparently kobolds can spawn with exploding darts on D:1. And can kill you while you're putting on a pair of gloves.

[tcjsavannah]

Felids suck

[joellercoaster]

The Lernaean Hydra actually does exist.

(Seriously in over nine hundred games I had never seen it before (I've had that Swamp ending, but never actually ran into it for some reason). Just now it came out and bit a large number of chunks out of me, causing me to burn the only scroll of blinking I've found all game. How rude.)

[Mankeli]

My lesson of the day: don't suck. I won't even be posting the morgue.

[Kyronea]

The Lernaean Hydra actually does exist.

(Seriously in over nine hundred games I had never seen it before (I've had that Swamp ending, but never actually ran into it for some reason). Just now it came out and bit a large number of chunks out of me, causing me to burn the only scroll of blinking I've found all game. How rude.)

Would you be upset to learn I killed it in a single stab in my SpEn victory game?

[Sandman25]

Tentacle of kraken is immune to confuse while kraken itself is not.

[rchandra]

Don't try out the new box of beasts vs Gloorx Vloq. I hasted and used it thrice, nothing happened, Gloorx tormented me twice. Had to DDoor and maul him.

[floatboth]

The Lernaean Hydra actually does exist.

(Seriously in over nine hundred games I had never seen it before (I've had that Swamp ending, but never actually ran into it for some reason). Just now it came out and bit a large number of chunks out of me, causing me to burn the only scroll of blinking I've found all game. How rude.)

Would you be upset to learn I killed it in a single stab in my SpEn victory game?

I killed it in a single stab in my SpEn fail game & in one Bolt of Fire (+ steam from it) in my NaAE victory game. TLH is a pushover.

[Sandman25]

The Lernaean Hydra actually does exist.

(Seriously in over nine hundred games I had never seen it before (I've had that Swamp ending, but never actually ran into it for some reason). Just now it came out and bit a large number of chunks out of me, causing me to burn the only scroll of blinking I've found all game. How rude.)

Would you be upset to learn I killed it in a single stab in my SpEn victory game?

I killed it in a single stab in my SpEn fail game & in one Bolt of Fire (+ steam from it) in my NaAE victory game. TLH is a pushover.

I didn't dare to try it vs monster who can one-shot you. Sometimes you can be really unlucky, once I almost died to a sleeping Hydra after using Passwall, the monster happened to wake up right while I was preparing passwall. Basically it was "saw sleeping hydra, retreated one or 2 moves, used passwall, got 80% damage from Hydra". Before that I thought that you always get first move after passwall.

[floatboth]

Lava Orc Abyssal Knight + Corruption + moving into a neutral monster = all monsters around you attacking you because of your heat.

[joellercoaster]

Revenants can be Rapidly Deconstructed.

[joellercoaster]

Also, Jory is not necessarily just found in his castle, and he has LCS

[Roshnak]

Also, Jory is not necessarily just found in his castle, and he has LCS

Even if you have a fancy antimagic executioner's axe to disable his spellcasting, he still hits really, really hard. 45 base + whatever weapon he has, + an additional 15 vampiric bite. Even with 30 AC + plate. and two brothers in arms to help you out, he'll still maul your face and you won't even get him below half health.
RIP in pieces DjBe

[ZoFy]

One meat ration might be just enough permafood for a kobold to carry around throughout the most of a 3-rune game, but not for a desperate teleroulette in Zot:5 and an orb run with a couple self-banishments. Don't be an idiot and starve on the ascension.

[joellercoaster]

Speaking of castles, Mennas seems to have a vault full of angelics now. Next time I see a huge steel funny-shaped thing taking up half the level, with a sealed door on it, it's staying sealed.

(Cool vault though.)

[DeathKnyte]

No matter how similar they might appear at 1 AM, robes and cloaks are not actually the same thing. So spend a second or two and verify whether that Robe of Night you're about to spend 1300 gold on is supposed to be worn on top of or instead of your plate mail. Stores in Dungeon Crawl do not have a 30-day return policy. Even if you still have the receipt and walked out of the store not five seconds ago. And don't think you'll be able to open up your own store and sell it to some other hapless adventurer either, because the storekeepers have a strict monopoly and will not let you in on their turf.

On a related note, don't play Crawl at 1 AM.

That's hilarious. (Now of course, I know it ain't at the time.)

He's something similar, when playing tired or distracted...


Do you want to join this religion?
Unknown command.
Do you want to join this religion?
Type [Y]es, or [N]o
Y
Trog welcomes you!


Huh? Trog!? What?! I wanted Vehumet!

[Zargon]

Arachne, despite being a half-spider, can't be affected by ignite poison, unlike all the other spiders in the nest.

It pays to check things like this on the wiki before you just charge in there like a naga in a china shop.

It also takes 10 magic to invoke step from time, and 5 magic to invoke slouch.

It's also quite sensible to have some means of teleportation on you at all times.

These are very much worth bearing in mind when you suddenly find your superb lvl 18 Naga of Chezza getting mullered by poison arrows, with no !curing left, and with 1 Mana point left by pointlessly spamming fireballs and ignite poison

Gaaaaaaaaah!

[Utis]

Tengu are an exeption to the general rule of training offence alone in the beginning.

Tengu are my latest obsession. I'm finding that this -20% HP issue makes them very squishy. OTOH, with their auxiliary attacks and/or aptitudes, damage output isn't their problem, so they can afford to train dodging alongside their attacks and still come out ahead compared to humans. Also, the %20 boost to EV when flying means that the return of XP investment in dodging scales slightly better for them than for other species.

That's at least is how I perceive TeGl and TeFE. Though, I don't get TeAE, I think I don't get AE at all, with any species.

[sgrunt]

Though, I don't get TeAE, I think I don't get AE at all, with any species.

Learn to bolt bounce; use Shock primarily when you can get a bolt bounce with it.

Learn Swiftness as soon as you hit XL2; use it to run away from things and to set up bolt bounces.

Get Lightning Bolt reasonably castable by Lair so you can kill hydras with it (see also: bolt bouncing; a really good bolt bounce can one-shot a hydra with some luck).

From there, do what you will.

Did I mention bolt bouncing?

[Utis]

Though, I don't get TeAE, I think I don't get AE at all, with any species.

Learn to bolt bounce; use Shock primarily when you can get a bolt bounce with it.

Learn Swiftness as soon as you hit XL2; use it to run away from things and to set up bolt bounces.

Get Lightning Bolt reasonably castable by Lair so you can kill hydras with it (see also: bolt bouncing; a really good bolt bounce can one-shot a hydra with some luck).

From there, do what you will.

Did I mention bolt bouncing?

Yes, bolt bouncing. But that's what I don't get: Even with bouncing, Shock seems way weaker and/or more swingy than Flame Tongue or Freeze. And like the latter, it requires me more often than not to be adjacent to my target, for the sake of bouncing. But unlike freeze, I have to use the terrain for that. Using terrain is fine, in principle, I like that conceptually. Actually, that's what attracts me to AE, in the first place. But I find the damage somewhat underwhelming in relation to the hastle it requires.

But that's o.k., I can deal with that. It's the development after Shock that I don't get. I suppose, the goto-damage dealer for anything medium threatening up to and including Lair is supposed to be Static Discharge. But either I don't understand how to use it effectively, or it does way not enough damage per MP. At least compared to Sticky Flame or either Throw Icicle or Ice Beasts.

Or do use Static Discharge only occasionally, rush for Lightening Bolt instead and use that all the time? I mean, it is VERY loud ...

[crate]

Shock is weaker than freeze but that's because freeze is the strongest level 1 conjuration-like spell in the game. Shock is definitely better than flame tongue or magic dart.

AE is an awkward start because the book is awkward, not much you can do about that.

[rchandra]

Or do use Static Discharge only occasionally, rush for Lightening Bolt instead and use that all the time? I mean, it is VERY loud ...

It's not really sensible to "rush Lightning Bolt instead" and ignore static discharge since they are both conj/air... yes keep training for offense but all three spells are useful throughout lair.

Lightning Bolt's noise is definitely a problem, be ready to flee with swiftness if it doesn't work out.

[prozacelf]

And static discharge is a very useful spell in its own right. The damage you take from it is pretty minimal.

[Utis]

Thank you, all, this might be setting me on the right track ...

Lesson learned today: If the perimeter has been reasonably secured, Swiftness allows for a kiting tactics with bizapping that keeps at least one space between a much stronger melee opponent.

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EDIT: Okay, I get Shock now. But, nope, I still don't get Static Discharge, but I start another thread for it.

[Sandman25]

Staff of Earth is a two-handed weapon for Sp. Too bad my buckler of rF+ is the only source of rF+.