UC questions

[Stornor]

This morning, I created a random char and fate gave me a Merfolk Wanderer to deal with.

This guy got at creation 4 levels in Unarmed Combat. Thinking he would soon be splatted, I began crawling.
But, a huge load pack of goblins and a Giant Mite made my Wanderer level 3 in less than 80 turns and two doors opened.

So, I'm thinking I will finally try to play seriously this guy. The problem is I have never really dug in the specificites of Unarmed Combat. So here is a bunch of (probably noobish) questions:

1) I have read here and there that UC is hindered by heavy armour. What are exactly the maths? Should i stick to leather armour? Ring Mail? May I wear heavier armour and still have decent melee Apts?

2) Same question regarding shields. Is a Unarmed fighter viable while wielding a Shield? Which max size? Buckler? Shield? Large Shield? Again what are the maths?

3) Last tricky question: Is the possibility of using a Dagger (for bonus/brand purposes) and hitting things with my left punch viable ? Or is it the left punch attack frequency totally irrelevant?

4) hu forgot to ask: I'm a little bit confused about the auxiliary unarmed attack I saw mentionned here and there. Is is this left punch attack i saw sometimes during my 10 minutes crawling UC experience? Or something totally different? How does it trigger?

[DracheReborn]

For 1 and 2, here's what learndb says:

https://loom.shalott.org/learndb.html#unarmed_combat

Fighting without a weapon. Base damage is 3 + UC skill (+2 per claws level (so +6 Tr, +2 Gh), +X for forms); delay 10 - UC/5.4; +2 to hit (+4 Tr/Gh). This delay is increased to max(10, 1d10+2dAEVP) - UC/5.4 if wearing heavy armour, plus the usual shield penalty, plus 1d2 - 1 if using a shield.

The heavier your armour, the larger your unavoidable attack delay in UC. You'll have to find the right tradeoff between offense/defense for your character (but in general for Mf UC I'd go for lighter armour).

If using a shield, the usual shield penalties go away at 5/15/25 Shield skill for buckler/shield/large shield respectively. The 1d2-1 part doesn't go away though. Again, up to you to figure the offense/defense tradeoff.

For 3, the offhand punch could add a significant amount to your offense (about 20% of UC damage I think someone estimated). However, using a weapon on main hand plus offhand punch for damage isn't a good idea - if you've trained up enough UC for the offhand punch to be significant, then your main hand is probably going to outdamage whatever 1H weapon you have. Seriously, UC is very strong.

For 4, aux unarmed is usually stuff like horns and hooves. They don't rely on UC skill. Offhand punch is considered an aux attack too and does rely on UC skill.

[nago]

I usually stick with dragon armour (mottled or fire, whatever I got first) if using UC.
Don't get me wrong, plate or heavier are still viable, but I wouldn't suggest them especially for a mf who can have tons of ev.

Please also note that a buckler give very low defences, so it isn't good to trade off the extra damage for it, unless it has a very good ego, like resistance or is a good artefact.
Using a shield is viable, but again, I'd prefer to invest the 15 point required elsewhere (like charms or ice or whatever)

[crate]

In general, just pick the same armour for a UC character that you'd use for the same character if you were using a weapon.

Don't ever use buckler + UC (unless you are an octopode, since they work differently ... no don't ask me why). Shield or large shield + UC is ok, but takes a lot of xp.

[Hopeless]

In general, just pick the same armour for a UC character that you'd use for the same character if you were using a weapon.

Don't ever use buckler + UC (unless you are an octopode, since they work differently ... no don't ask me why). Shield or large shield + UC is ok, but takes a lot of xp.

Why not buckler + UC but shield/LS is ok?

[Sar]

I assume defence bump you get from buckler does not make up for losing offhand punch.

[duvessa]

using a shield with unarmed is like -20% (sometimes more!) damage even if you have enough skill to eliminate the penalties, and that's without accounting for the additional damage you'd get by putting that shields xp in fighting/unarmed instead
so unless trading 20% of your damage for 9 SH sounds good to you, you don't want a buckler with unarmed
(personally i don't like shields or large shields with unarmed either except on trolls)

edit: actually it's closer to -10% i guess

[dck]

wait how are podes different in terms of buckler and UC?

[crate]

wait how are podes different in terms of buckler and UC?

op actually doesn't lose offhand punch (no i dont know why)

[Kramin42]

If you find a book with blade hands you should use that too, it's like a temporary claws 6 mutation (trolls have claws 3). Also blade hands will make your shield useless so that's another reason to not bother with shields.

In general transmutations are good for UC users, especially with a merfolk's good apt, just be careful about the downsides of each form because they all have some trade-off

[dck]

another day in crawl alright.