Early game deaths (was: New Monk Background)

[File200]

For starters, the current Monk can have its religion gimmick removed, and then be reflavored to "Savage." Give them extra stealth skill to compensate.

New Monk:
At character creation, you choose one of the Ecumenical gods that isn't tied to a background. You can pick: Ashenzari, Cheibriados, Dithmenos, Elyvilon, Fedhas, Gozag, Kikubaaqudgha, Makhleb, Nemelex, Okawaru, Qazlal, Ru, Sif Muna, The Shining One, Vehumet, Yredelemnul or Zin.

You start with a robe, a ration, your chosen god (at 5 or 10 piety), and one point each in invocations, spellcasting and fighting.

[KoboldLord]

You seriously want to *add* a background that starts with Elyvilon, Makhleb, Yredelemnul, or Zin? It probably shouldn't be necessary to explain this, but we already had those backgrounds and they got removed. If you want them back, you might consider learning why they were removed and specifically addressing the reasoning in your proposal. As it is, you are not going to get any traction with this topic.

[File200]

As I understand it, Zin and Makhleb were removed because taking them early was pointless. This is implicitly addressed in the proposal by the fact that you can choose to NOT take them. The background has inherent early game drawbacks that differentiate it from others regardless of god choice.

Yredelemnul's powers were too similar to an existing background, but this is a problem with Yredelemnul in general. Why does this god still exist?

Elyvilon has always been problematic as a starting god, I'll give you that. The easiest way to fix this is to make Ely non-ecumenical. This is perfectly in line with Crawl's philosophy of removing no-brainer choices and discouraging tedious optimal play.

[Mulzaro]

The less god backgrounds the better. This promotes atleast some level of adaptation and removes the hassle of D:1 balance between gods. I would remove Berserker too, but it's probably in the game for players to let off some steam.

[onget]

Less God background and pre-temple is very boring.

pre-temple is tab(or starting book spell) spam or run away(no option) or spam blowgun or stupid death or random death. That's all.

God background allows non-tab spam tactics.

It is a good start from god background or start from the temple.

[Mulzaro]

To be honest, the game is full of tabbing and spamming with or without gods. From the zealot backgrounds only Abyssal knight really makes sense, because Lugonu's altars are normally hard to access. I guess Chaos knight is ok too for the extra randomness. Berserker is way too strong in my opinion, but Crawl's backgrounds and species are supposed to be difficulty levels anyways.

[sanka]

As I understand it, Zin and Makhleb were removed because taking them early was pointless. .

I am absolutely sure that this is NOT the case. Both gods (especially Makhleb) are strong early on. If I'd want to maximize my chances to win, then I would immediately convert to Makhleb on any character if I found an altar on D1. (Ok, not with berserker or abyssal knight...)

pre-temple is tab(or starting book spell) spam or run away(no option) or spam blowgun or stupid death or random death. That's all.

One thing I think you should realize is that the better you became at the game the more interesting will be the early game exactly because you do not have many resources/abilities, and the more boring will be the later parts when you will have them. Most early "stupid" or "random" deaths are avoidable, but you need think more on what to do. Later tactics are way less important, because you will have strong abilities and consumables to choose from. (I am not a very good player, but I have watched good ones like mikee, crate, minmay or elliptic, and I see what can they do.)

[onget]

List of common early game stupid deaths

Denial always the same choise:Early game unique monster is always the same choise Force. always simply run away or stupid die.

Denial simply run away (no option, no other survive choise) I hate simply run away (one of the most boring tactic).

Denial kite (kite of slow monster is not problem, normal speed monster kite is the worst and very common is adjacent hobgoblin in HP1)

go to the 15 runes. (Non-early game focus character is absolutely bad idea)

The unattainable goal in the early game. (Non-early game focus character is absolutely bad idea)

List of early game random deaths

lethal poison without curing potion(common in adder fight)

centaur kills instantly you

D:1 fast multiple monster

Cause of death of the early game is denial always same choise or bad luck.

All of the early game threat is forced always same choise and patience checks and novice killing and random death, it is not interesting.

(I'm not angband 100%win player, very lacks the patience)

[ontoclasm]

As far as I know, there's a pretty solid consensus that we want, if anything, fewer religious backgrounds, not more. There is a bit of tension in trying to find the altar of a god you want, and you might find yourself drawn towards gods you weren't considering because your One True Choice spawned extremely late. Crawl is (theoretically) a game about adapting to what you find, not planning your Zig spell list from turn 1, and it's neat to find yourself building a different character than you expected*. Religious backgrounds throw that away for no reason, and aside from "starts with a god" are unilaterally very bland. The few remaining zealots are all there for specific reasons, and even then are standing on thin ice.

*I am perfectly aware that some people plan their Zig spell lists from turn 1 and refuse to adapt their plans in any way. I personally consider this unfortunate.

List of common early game stupid deaths

No offense but a lot of these aren't hard to avoid or overcome. I frequently kill early-game uniques on sight. Centaurs are dangerous but I think the last time I died to one was several years ago. And I am absolutely terrible at Crawl. Maybe you should try to learn how instead of assuming it's Crawl's fault?

[Pollen_Golem]

You can tell from his word choices that onget is in Stage 1 of the Crawl process: denial.

[onget]

It is what you always use the same tactics, if you want to accept the boredom, is avoidable.

I hate the clearly one survive choise. It is very boring, you choise it, or stupid death.

character with multiple survive choices in grinder is very rare. Always simply run away, or is stupid death.

early game (mainly sigmund, grinder) There is no interesting encounter absolutely. always boring fight, or boring run away, or boring blowgun spam, or is boring death.

more powerful character in the early game is good. (monster of the early game is relatively the most powerful, and is completely immune to most of the trick)

(I feel derail)

[Sprucery]

Grinder is almost always best avoided, yes. But I don't find other early game uniques so bad.

[Sar]

well, avoiding a blinking, paralysing enemy is not always trivial

at least for me, I am sure onget's experiences are different!

[Jeremiah]

A lot of early game frustration can happen because of those times when you try to run away but are unable to do so, eg because the enemy confuses/paralyses you, or it's faster than you, or it's a centaur, or it's the first monster you meet on D1 and there's nowhere to run to.

[sanka]

A lot of early game frustration can happen because of those times when you try to run away but are unable to do so, eg because the enemy confuses/paralyses you, or it's faster than you, or it's a centaur, or it's the first monster you meet on D1 and there's nowhere to run to.

Yeah, but some of these makes the game more interesting because you need to think about them *before* they happen. Autoexplore kind of ruins it a little bit tough.

[bcadren]

I kinda miss healer...but you couldn't have something similar without a god with which you have a weak-ish free invocation you can spam (which no longer exists).

[dubem]

im not trying to be offensive here or anything but, could someone please translate what onget is saying? i can't understand anything that he/she just said...other than the lethal poisoning which tends to happen to him/her often, which also used to happen to me for a little while when i started playing

[Jeremiah]

im not trying to be offensive here or anything but, could someone please translate what onget is saying? i can't understand anything that he/she just said...other than the lethal poisoning which tends to happen to him/her often, which also used to happen to me for a little while when i started playing

Basically, he says the same thing in every post: early game is boring because you have to run away and the devs are stupid because they removed things that he likes.

[Sar]

those are two different things!

[tasonir]

While I understand that this won't happen as they prefer that you explore and find gods in the actual dungeon, and tempt players with gods that may not be their first choice but which show up sooner, etc etc...I still kind of like the background. Since it'll never happen, we might as well through Jiyva in it as well, and then people have to try to deal with absolutely terrible starting skills. Seriously, a skill total of 3? I understand you're trying to not give them any "specific" skills and only generalist stuff, but can't they at least have level 2 fighting/spellcasting/invocations?

[Aule]

Crawl is (theoretically) a game about adapting to what you find, not planning your Zig spell list from turn 1, and it's neat to find yourself building a different character than you expected*.

*I am perfectly aware that some people plan their Zig spell lists from turn 1 and refuse to adapt their plans in any way. I personally consider this unfortunate.

So, essentially, you think it's unfortunate some people don't want to play your game the way you want them to, in a way that entertains them individually.

I think this attitude is even more unfortunate, especially given how commonplace it is, but hey, it's your game. If you think it better to try forcing people to adapt to your ways and think only as you do, then you won't find yourself being lonely, at least in this venue.

[Mulzaro]

Crawl is (theoretically) a game about adapting to what you find, not planning your Zig spell list from turn 1, and it's neat to find yourself building a different character than you expected*.

*I am perfectly aware that some people plan their Zig spell lists from turn 1 and refuse to adapt their plans in any way. I personally consider this unfortunate.

So, essentially, you think it's unfortunate some people don't want to play your game the way you want them to, in a way that entertains them individually.

I think this attitude is even more unfortunate, especially given how commonplace it is, but hey, it's your game. If you think it better to try forcing people to adapt to your ways and think only as you do, then you won't find yourself being lonely, at least in this venue.

This is how the game is designed, with high amount of random factor. It's impossible to please everyone.

[WingedEspeon]

For starters, the current Monk can have its religion gimmick removed, and then be reflavored to "Savage." Give them extra stealth skill to compensate.

New Monk:
At character creation, you choose one of the Ecumenical gods that isn't tied to a background. You can pick: Ashenzari, Cheibriados, Dithmenos, Elyvilon, Fedhas, Gozag, Kikubaaqudgha, Makhleb, Nemelex, Okawaru, Qazlal, Ru, Sif Muna, The Shining One, Vehumet, Yredelemnul or Zin.

You start with a robe, a ration, your chosen god (at 5 or 10 piety), and one point each in invocations, spellcasting and fighting.

No. Just no. I like UC fighter but hate stealth. More fighting/UC/dodging or even armour to compensate. Giving them more stealth skill for the religious bonus is like saying: "Hey, I took your $5 but I gave you some depleted uranium to compensate." The one thing I don't like about monks is I have to go ashe if I want to end the game with 0 stealth skill, and ashe isn't very good for unarmed fighters.