The Tavern

I made it to max piety and the final 3 offerings of Vehumet, have collected the first rune, cleared orc, lair and swamp, and dungeon down to depths, and the number and quality of the available spells is awful. I can't find any of my favorite utilities, such as Freezing Cloud, Fireball or Iron Shot, and the final three offerings include neither Firestorm nor Glaciate. I'm muddling by with Stone Arrow, Force Lance, Bolt of Fire and OoD, but I have a nice randart Faith ammy with decent mods, and I was thinking of renouncing Veh and then rejoining, the idea being I'd be given a whole new slew of offerings. Will it work?

I don't know if it works, but you don't need to. OOD should be enough to win, and Veh's wrath is more likely to kill you than a lack of Firestorm.

The best build now is probably to train defenses a lot and get a decent low-investment weapon to mindelay if you haven't already. If you find the books for it, pick up the good utility spells from Translocations or Charms.

Under optimal conditions, you have enough raw offensive power to kill any one enemy in the game. Defenses, escapes, and a backup melee attack mean that you don't need optimal conditions.

Aside: LCS is shorter range, but it has the same damage/MP and better accuracy as Iron Shot. Shatter and Tornado are perfectly good spells too. Chain Lightning is good too.

Aside #2: If you were with Sif instead of Veh, she'd've taken care of you.

Hurkyl wrote:Aside: LCS is shorter range, but it has the same damage/MP and better accuracy as Iron Shot. Shatter and Tornado are perfectly good spells too. Chain Lightning is good too.

Aside #2: If you were with Sif instead of Veh, she'd've taken care of you.

LCS, Shatter and Tornado are too high to be usable right now, even though those are the three offerings. I was mainly looking to get Freezing Cloud (da bom) and Fireball, but really, primarily, Freezing Cloud. FS in the final offerings wouldn't be annoying, either.

As for being taken care of, this is the first time in about all 50 games with Og that I had neither the offerings nor books to make me happy, hence my contemplation. Hopefully there is an answer that doesn't require me to dive into the code.

@Igxfl: To paraphrase Han Solo, "Never tell me the optimal."

Vehumet was very deliberately changed so she no longer gives you a completely reliable spell list that you can refuse to ever deviate from. I haven't actually tried it, but I doubt your plan works even disregarding the possibility that Vehumet will flat-out murder you for your impertinence. Vehumet is all about the passives, and the spell gifts are really just there so you aren't completely hosed if you don't get any book spawns. The gifts are not supposed to be the primary draw.

If you want to win this character, you have the tools to do so, but if you specifically want to win a Fire Storm character it's probably better to quit this character and go start a Sif Muna one or alternately just go ahead and turn on wizmode so you can give yourself exactly the spell list you want. It's a single-player game, and if you decide you don't like the randomness built in you can just use the available option to turn that off.

If you must have those other spells, you could always do a zig. Get shatter or tornado working and you shouldn't have any problem doing enough levels to get plenty of books.

God wrath gets cancelled when you rejoin your religion, so it might work out.

Veh doesn't give you a new set of gifts, if you rejoin you just don't get gifts again.

Bolt of Fire and OoD

Congratz on the win.

Siegurt wrote:Veh doesn't give you a new set of gifts, if you rejoin you just don't get gifts again.

Thank you for a definitive answer to the question, rather than another variation on the theme of "you shouldn't be asking that question."

Although I did lol at that "murdered for impertinence" thing.

@KL: this is WebTiles. I don't play local, and I don't use wizmode.

@Blobbo: Pathologically uninterested in <15 rune wins. If it's in the game, I want to play it. No motivation to rack up 3-rune wins.

Thanks, Siegurt. I knew someone here had to know this already.

Aule wrote:
Siegurt wrote:Veh doesn't give you a new set of gifts, if you rejoin you just don't get gifts again.

Thank you for a definitive answer to the question, rather than another variation on the theme of "you shouldn't be asking that question."

Although I did lol at that "murdered for impertinence" thing.

@KL: this is WebTiles. I don't play local, and I don't use wizmode.

@Blobbo: Pathologically uninterested in <15 rune wins. If it's in the game, I want to play it. No motivation to rack up 3-rune wins.

Thanks, Siegurt. I knew someone here had to know this already.

To be fair, I had to pull up a wizmode character locally and see what happened, I didn't know off hand.

well you can 15-rune with bof and ood

Siegurt wrote:Veh doesn't give you a new set of gifts, if you rejoin you just don't get gifts again.

Do you get your last 3 back from before or no gifts at all?

Siegurt wrote:To be fair, I had to pull up a wizmode character locally and see what happened, I didn't know off hand.

It would have taken me a long time to set that up with the 0.16 version and figure out how to use wizmode, so thank you much.

Sar wrote:well you can 15-rune with bof and ood

I am sure, but I wouldn't have nearly as much fun doing it. I do have to admit that the one-two punch is indeed quite effective, but it's also fairly MP intensive and sometimes unreliable. Freezing cloud and fireball are 100% reliable, on the cheap.

Edit: I would certainly keep BoF and OoD; I like them both. I consider OoD on par with LCS, but the defensive field of ice is a great help in mob warfare, which I am a fan of with my Wz characters.

Aule wrote:
Siegurt wrote:Veh doesn't give you a new set of gifts, if you rejoin you just don't get gifts again.

Thank you for a definitive answer to the question, rather than another variation on the theme of "you shouldn't be asking that question."

It's like, you went into a grocery store and asked "Hey, if I replace my car's engine block with a watermelon, will it void the warranty on the watermelon?" Most people, upon hearing that question, see something more important than the answer.

duvessa wrote:It's like, you went into a grocery store and asked "Hey, if I replace my car's engine block with a watermelon, will it void the warranty on the watermelon?" Most people, upon hearing that question, see something more important than the answer.

Now, don't go defending groupthink with wild analogies that aren't even tangential. Everyone was getting along fine in here.

If you see something that would be truly more important for my own personal sense of enjoyment, then you have godlike vision, and you should be gloatingly proud of that. But, really, I doubt that you really do see something more important for my tastes.

I mean the subforum is called "Dungeon Crawling Advice" so if you post a topic here you should probably expect a few people to give you advice

I did expect it, and I took it all in good-naturedly. No harm, no foul. It's just, well, I had a simple question, and there's no Simple Question subforum.

Oh and, for the record, I lol'd at your watermelon engine block, too.

Aule wrote:
Sar wrote:well you can 15-rune with bof and ood

I am sure, but I wouldn't have nearly as much fun doing it. I do have to admit that the one-two punch is indeed quite effective, but it's also fairly MP intensive and sometimes unreliable. Freezing cloud and fireball are 100% reliable, on the cheap.

Do you really use Freezing Cloud and Fireball in extended? They are too slow/noisy correspondingly IMHO. I stop using Fireball in Depths and stop using Freezing Cloud in extended, the latter deals about 20 damage per turn max, too slow vs most monsters with torment/hellfire.

fcloud is the easiest way to kill cerebov and great against brimstone fiends and various trash like demonspawn and half the 2s; fireball is free with delayed fireball which is instant damage so it's always good

ajon wrote:
Siegurt wrote:Veh doesn't give you a new set of gifts, if you rejoin you just don't get gifts again.

Do you get your last 3 back from before or no gifts at all?

I got all the gifts the first time, then left and rejoined and got no gifts (not even the previous final three)

I didn't do enough experimenting to know what happens if you leave before getting all the gifts and re joining (I suspect you would get the gifts you were still eligible for, but had not been offered yet, but that is only a suspicion)

Aule wrote:If it's in the game, I want to play it.

I appreciate your attitude, but will you then be doing megazigs infinitely? :)

duvessa wrote:fcloud is the easiest way to kill cerebov and great against brimstone fiends and various trash like demonspawn and half the 2s; fireball is free with delayed fireball which is instant damage so it's always good

Code:: The Brimstone Fiend is engulfed in freezing vapours. The Brimstone Fiend takes 10 damage from cloud: freezing vapours. Damage: -12%(-20hp) hp: 88%(136hp) The Brimstone Fiend is engulfed in freezing vapours. The Brimstone Fiend takes 4 damage from cloud: freezing vapours. The Brimstone Fiend completely misses you. The Brimstone Fiend closely misses you. The Brimstone Fiend barely misses you. The Brimstone Fiend is engulfed in freezing vapours. The Brimstone Fiend takes 4 damage from cloud: freezing vapours. The Brimstone Fiend barely misses you. The Brimstone Fiend hits you. The Brimstone Fiend hits you! Damage: -5%(-9hp) hp: 83%(128hp) The Brimstone Fiend is engulfed in freezing vapours. The Brimstone Fiend takes 4 damage from cloud: freezing vapours. The Brimstone Fiend calls on the powers of darkness! Your body is wracked with pain! * * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * * Huge Dmg: -41%(-63hp) hp: 42%(65hp) The Brimstone Fiend is engulfed in freezing vapours. The Brimstone Fiend takes 16 damage from cloud: freezing vapours. The Brimstone Fiend gestures at you. The hellfire explodes! The blast of hellfire engulfs you! Rolled 37 for 3d20 * * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * * Rolled 23 for 3d20 The blast of hellfire engulfs the Brimstone Fiend.(damage 23) The Brimstone Fiend completely resists. Huge Dmg: -23%(-36hp) hp: 19%(29hp) Unknown command. Unknown command. The Brimstone Fiend is engulfed in freezing vapours. The Brimstone Fiend takes 13 damage from cloud: freezing vapours. The Brimstone Fiend calls on the powers of darkness! Your body is wracked with pain! * * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * * You feel less contaminated with magical energies. Huge Dmg: -8%(-13hp) hp: 11%(16hp)

TL;DR I don't see anything spectacular in Freezing Cloud in extended. Too low damage and too slow killing.

Siegurt wrote:I didn't do enough experimenting to know what happens if you leave before getting all the gifts and re joining (I suspect you would get the gifts you were still eligible for, but had not been offered yet, but that is only a suspicion)

That's correct, yeah.

Sandman25 wrote:Do you really use Freezing Cloud and Fireball in extended? They are too slow/noisy correspondingly IMHO. I stop using Fireball in Depths and stop using Freezing Cloud in extended, the latter deals about 20 damage per turn max, too slow vs most monsters with torment/hellfire.

You misunderstand; my intention was to use FC for mid-game. You are right that it has diminishing usefulness later into extended (but it never truly becomes useless, although Glaciate is a clear replacement). At the time I posted, I still had Elf, Spider, Vaults, and Crypt to do, so it would have been handy. By the time extended comes, should the character survive my antics, I am close to getting the 9's online.

@Sprucery: I'd have to have a pretty beefy character to try a megazig even once. I thought that change was crazy, but I suppose it's better than removing zigs. I still miss the Deck of Dungeons that let you create a zig.

If you want to grind infinite Zigs without their challenge level rising, you can just leave at the 26th level.

Sandman25 wrote:
duvessa wrote:fcloud is the easiest way to kill cerebov and great against brimstone fiends and various trash like demonspawn and half the 2s; fireball is free with delayed fireball which is instant damage so it's always good

Code:
The Brimstone Fiend is engulfed in freezing vapours. The Brimstone Fiend takes 10 damage from cloud: freezing vapours. Damage: -12%(-20hp) hp: 88%(136hp) The Brimstone Fiend is engulfed in freezing vapours. The Brimstone Fiend takes 4 damage from cloud: freezing vapours. The Brimstone Fiend completely misses you. The Brimstone Fiend closely misses you. The Brimstone Fiend barely misses you. The Brimstone Fiend is engulfed in freezing vapours. The Brimstone Fiend takes 4 damage from cloud: freezing vapours. The Brimstone Fiend barely misses you. The Brimstone Fiend hits you. The Brimstone Fiend hits you! Damage: -5%(-9hp) hp: 83%(128hp) The Brimstone Fiend is engulfed in freezing vapours. The Brimstone Fiend takes 4 damage from cloud: freezing vapours. The Brimstone Fiend calls on the powers of darkness! Your body is wracked with pain! * * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * * Huge Dmg: -41%(-63hp) hp: 42%(65hp) The Brimstone Fiend is engulfed in freezing vapours. The Brimstone Fiend takes 16 damage from cloud: freezing vapours. The Brimstone Fiend gestures at you. The hellfire explodes! The blast of hellfire engulfs you! Rolled 37 for 3d20 * * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * * Rolled 23 for 3d20 The blast of hellfire engulfs the Brimstone Fiend.(damage 23) The Brimstone Fiend completely resists. Huge Dmg: -23%(-36hp) hp: 19%(29hp) Unknown command. Unknown command. The Brimstone Fiend is engulfed in freezing vapours. The Brimstone Fiend takes 13 damage from cloud: freezing vapours. The Brimstone Fiend calls on the powers of darkness! Your body is wracked with pain! * * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * * You feel less contaminated with magical energies. Huge Dmg: -8%(-13hp) hp: 11%(16hp)

TL;DR I don't see anything spectacular in Freezing Cloud in extended. Too low damage and too slow killing.

"cast it on a monster in LOS and wait while doing nothing" is not how you use fcloud

duvessa wrote:
Sandman25 wrote:
duvessa wrote:fcloud is the easiest way to kill cerebov and great against brimstone fiends and various trash like demonspawn and half the 2s; fireball is free with delayed fireball which is instant damage so it's always good

Code:
The Brimstone Fiend is engulfed in freezing vapours. The Brimstone Fiend takes 10 damage from cloud: freezing vapours. Damage: -12%(-20hp) hp: 88%(136hp) The Brimstone Fiend is engulfed in freezing vapours. The Brimstone Fiend takes 4 damage from cloud: freezing vapours. The Brimstone Fiend completely misses you. The Brimstone Fiend closely misses you. The Brimstone Fiend barely misses you. The Brimstone Fiend is engulfed in freezing vapours. The Brimstone Fiend takes 4 damage from cloud: freezing vapours. The Brimstone Fiend barely misses you. The Brimstone Fiend hits you. The Brimstone Fiend hits you! Damage: -5%(-9hp) hp: 83%(128hp) The Brimstone Fiend is engulfed in freezing vapours. The Brimstone Fiend takes 4 damage from cloud: freezing vapours. The Brimstone Fiend calls on the powers of darkness! Your body is wracked with pain! * * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * * Huge Dmg: -41%(-63hp) hp: 42%(65hp) The Brimstone Fiend is engulfed in freezing vapours. The Brimstone Fiend takes 16 damage from cloud: freezing vapours. The Brimstone Fiend gestures at you. The hellfire explodes! The blast of hellfire engulfs you! Rolled 37 for 3d20 * * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * * Rolled 23 for 3d20 The blast of hellfire engulfs the Brimstone Fiend.(damage 23) The Brimstone Fiend completely resists. Huge Dmg: -23%(-36hp) hp: 19%(29hp) Unknown command. Unknown command. The Brimstone Fiend is engulfed in freezing vapours. The Brimstone Fiend takes 13 damage from cloud: freezing vapours. The Brimstone Fiend calls on the powers of darkness! Your body is wracked with pain! * * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * * You feel less contaminated with magical energies. Huge Dmg: -8%(-13hp) hp: 11%(16hp)

TL;DR I don't see anything spectacular in Freezing Cloud in extended. Too low damage and too slow killing.
"cast it on a monster in LOS and wait while doing nothing" is not how you use fcloud

But it is exactly how you test fcloud's damage, which was the point of this demonstration.

duvessa wrote:cast it on a monster in LOS and wait while doing nothing" is not how you use fcloud

Ok, you enter a new Pan/Hell level and see a fiend (choose any distance and layout you feel is typical for noticing a fiend, you can ignore hell effects if you want). What do you do?

casts bolt of cold probably

this doesn't make fcloud useless

Sar wrote:casts bolt of cold probably

this doesn't make fcloud useless

Exactly. One continues to do battle using whatever means, LRD, shot, missiles, melee, throwing, OoD, whatever, and the fcloud damage is consistently added to the overall damage, making the whole episode shorter and more effective. (If ten enemies are suffering 10 damage per turn, then that's your character distributing 100 damage in a turn while doing something else.) It covers such a broad area, and in such a useful fashion ("stretching" to cover unaffected tiles), that entire mobs can suffer under just a few casts. It really shines on reptiles, due to its additional slowing effect.

It even has cheese value. Haste, fcloud, walk, walk, walk, fcloud, walk, walk, walk, fcloud, etc., or, my personal favorite, fcloud a room, close the door, and keep closing the door after it's opened as the contents of the room dwindle.

I know what some of you are thinking: "It's too useful. Nerf it!" Please don't nerf it. Make it level 7 if you must, but don't change a thing about it.

Aule wrote:@Blobbo: Pathologically uninterested in <15 rune wins. If it's in the game, I want to play it. No motivation to rack up 3-rune wins.

You'll get over it.

Aule wrote:(If ten enemies are suffering 10 damage per turn, then that's your character distributing 100 damage in a turn while doing something else.)

In short, area effect spells are great at affecting areas. I think Sandman is (implicitly) arguing it's not really effective for single targets; e.g. for taking out a single Brimstone Fiend.

Please don't nerf it.

I believe 0.17 makes clouds decay rapidly when not in your line of sight. (and cloud-making spells won't create them at all out of sight)

Hurkyl wrote:
Aule wrote:(If ten enemies are suffering 10 damage per turn, then that's your character distributing 100 damage in a turn while doing something else.)

In short, area effect spells are great at affecting areas. I think Sandman is (implicitly) arguing it's not really effective for single targets; e.g. for taking out a single Brimstone Fiend.

Well, that's not how it's typically used, so it's an empty argument.

Please don't nerf it.

I believe 0.17 makes clouds decay rapidly when not in your line of sight. (and cloud-making spells won't create them at all out of sight)

That latter is an atrocious nerf, if I'm correct in reading it, basically making the spell useless in twisty corridors where before such was among its most useful tactics.

As an aside, I feel that it is simply not a good direction of development to continue making the game harder and harder for casual players at the behest of those who use an encyclopedic, spoilery knowledge of the game, wizmode and local testing to squeeze out the maximum use from every aut (i.e., so-called "optimal" play). IMO, such is not playing a game; it is working a game. It's a choice of playstyle, to be sure, but a healthy development would cater to both styles, also IMO.

I thought the clouds decaying out of LOS thing was from a while back, not new to 0.17.

However, back on the subject of FC in extended, is it really ever worth the turn? Also, remember that while doing 10 damage to 10 enemies indeed is 100 damage, 10 enemies who have taken 10 damage are still hurting you just as badly as 10 unhurt monsters. And if you have a method of killing them that is going to one or twoshot them, does the FC actually make any difference at all?

I haven't extensively tried to do so, but my instincts tell me that FC is generally not worth a turn in extended.

I'm not a huge fan of it in extended, either, so there's no argument here. It's best use is mid-game, which is where I wanted it in the OP.

dowan wrote:And if you have a method of killing them that is going to one or twoshot them, does the FC actually make any difference at all?

In this case, it can make a monster you were going to twoshot be a monster you oneshot.

So, yes?

Sure, for certain values of damage that's going to be true, but given that fcloud's individual damage is likely to be very low compared to whatever your main killdudes method is, the likelihood of it actually reducing a twoshot monster to a oneshot monster is pretty low.

However, I think I'm just retreading the ground that Aule already covered. FC is awesome in early and midgame, and of only limited utility in extended.

Aule wrote:
Hurkyl wrote:
Aule wrote:(If ten enemies are suffering 10 damage per turn, then that's your character distributing 100 damage in a turn while doing something else.)

In short, area effect spells are great at affecting areas. I think Sandman is (implicitly) arguing it's not really effective for single targets; e.g. for taking out a single Brimstone Fiend.

Well, that's not how it's typically used, so it's an empty argument.

fcloud is the easiest way to kill cerebov and great against brimstone fiends and various trash like demonspawn and half the 2s

Hurkyl wrote:
Aule wrote:
Hurkyl wrote:In short, area effect spells are great at affecting areas. I think Sandman is (implicitly) arguing it's not really effective for single targets; e.g. for taking out a single Brimstone Fiend.

Well, that's not how it's typically used, so it's an empty argument.

fcloud is the easiest way to kill cerebov and great against brimstone fiends and various trash like demonspawn and half the 2s

I would still use it in those scenarios if I didn't have Glaciate, and it would help. Maybe not optimal play, but who cares?

Speaking of optimal play, it's unfortunate that OP already has two meanings, so we can't really abbreviate it that way. I suggest we use oh-pee for shortening "optimal play," or, if you prefer, "oh, piss."

It has three meanings at the least from what I gather.
Optimal Play. Over Powered. Original Post/Poster.

The Tavern

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