Lair Branches

[bcadren]

I really think we should switch to (Spider or Swamp) and (Snake or Shoals).

Reasoning:

• Snake and Shoals are the most similar pairing; full of magic users and ranged attacks that are the bane of melee fighters that can't close the distance in the large open areas that make up the place; while Spider and Swamp are full of melee enemies that storm the player in mass.
• Shoals and Snake have been given much stronger difficulty boosts than Spider or Swamp and both have more total available experience than Swamp/Spider and are more likely to cause splats.

[TeshiAlair]

I like this idea a lot. You lose a bit of theme for a lot less swingy gameplay IMO.

[Quazifuji]

I feel like the resent addition of entropy weavers to spider increased the odds of a spider splat considerably, at least based on my limited experience with them.

[tabstorm]

Swamp is easier than the other 3 Lair branches. Shoals is much harder than the other 3 and is often harder than Vaults:1-4. If anything, Shoals should be toned down and Swamp made a little tougher. Spider has been made considerably tougher than it used to be thanks to entropy weavers and nerfs to player rPois.

[byrel]

Swamp is easier than the other 3 Lair branches. Shoals is much harder than the other 3 and is often harder than Vaults:1-4. If anything, Shoals should be toned down and Swamp made a little tougher. Spider has been made considerably tougher than it used to be thanks to entropy weavers and nerfs to player rPois.

I understand there is some validity in this, but... it's really not that simple. For instance, an invis stabber can pretty much take the Shoals. There's one type of caster that can see invis, who's relatively easy to take out with silence, wands, whatever. On the other hand, swamp is actually dangerous for (say) a low-HP no rPois invis stabber. Between things like Thorn Hunters and ravens seeing invis, swamp dragon and drake breaths blanketing you invis or not, and the clouds which typically show up in the end... it can get rough.

It's really hard to say that one of those branches is easier or harder, because it depends on resistances, loot, and tools. I've heard Snake can be quite deadly if you lack rElec now. There's actually good variety between them.

Consider the closest two, swamp and spider. For both of them you'd really like rPois. But that's where the comparison ends. Swamp you want flying. Your tactics are primarily tab (well, with pulling where possible of course) as a fighter, since there's very little useful terrain (unless you're a merfolk ofc.) As a spell caster you have limited pulling since most everything can take a straighter route to you, but it's still the key. Pull them away from the gray, dispatch them. Spider on the other hand has a lot of 'disengage' threats. If poisoned, you want to heal. If entropy weaver, go back and repair. If orb spider (damn I love their design) back up if there's no cover. Try to use cover if there is cover. Watch cover disintegrate.

Tactics are different, and so different characters have an easier time with each.

[mps]

I don't think ranking branches by the number of monsters in them that see invisible is a very helpful way to think about balance issues like this one. There's a pretty broad cross-section of characters for whom shoals >>> swamp. The point with shoals is that you have a lot of sources of high damage, ranged or reaching attacks, meaning that dangerous situations can develop quickly in a way other xl level appropriate parts of the dungeon can't match.

Swamp is not just much easier than shoals in most cases, it's easier than spider too now, imo. It's most similar to snake in difficulty, probably. In any case, if it's going to be swamp or shoals, swamp needs to get considerably tougher or there's too much rng influence in the difficulty of a 3 rune game.

[byrel]

I don't think ranking branches by the number of monsters in them that see invisible is a very helpful way to think about balance issues like this one.

My point is I don't think ranking branches in some generic order of difficulty is a very helpful way of thinking about this.

Given that I have found evokable invis ~50% of games preswamp, and potion invis every game pre-swamp, see invis isn't irrelevant. You can pop a potion if you're out of your depth in Shoals. You can train evocations to have a tool that reduces Shoals to nearly trivial. And see-invis is just one example. Some tools are more potent against Shoals than swamp. Repel/deflect missles for example. Poison from blowguns/VM skills.

There's a pretty broad cross-section of characters for whom shoals >>> swamp.

And a broad cross-section where it isn't. It depends on drops and skilling decisions more than anything. Which is to say it's situational.

The point with shoals is that you have a lot of sources of high damage, ranged or reaching attacks, meaning that dangerous situations can develop quickly in a way other xl level appropriate parts of the dungeon can't match.

Definitely! The threats in Shoal are most similar to yaktaur packs, but pretty distinct from that. Those situations are part of what makes Shoals a good branch. On the other hand, it's also vulnerable to certain tools in a way other xl appropriate parts of the dungeon can't match so pretty much anyone CAN clear it.

Swamp is not just much easier than shoals in most cases, it's easier than spider too now, imo. It's most similar to snake in difficulty, probably. In any case, if it's going to be swamp or shoals, swamp needs to get considerably tougher or there's too much rng influence in the difficulty of a 3 rune game.

Well... I think swamp has generally the hardest possible endings of any of the branches. Snake is basically a mini elf:3, which means you can draw things out slowly and deal with them. Swamp potentially has things you just CAN'T fight (L'Hydra) or perma miasma clouds, or ice clouds... basically swamp endings (honestly like a lot of swamp) have limited tactical risk-management. On the other hand, Swamp normal levels are boring barring the uniques who spawn there to a lot of heros; I think they're undertuned a bit. I'd definitely like the danger level of early swamp levels to go up some. Maybe by spawning extra swamp drakes and and occasional salamander storm caller?

[bel]

Don't really agree with the OP, Shoals and Snake aren't really similar. Snake is basically like Dungeon, with specialized monsters. There is plenty of cover availabe.

Shoals is a totally different beast. Tough monsters, very little cover available. Plenty of ranged and reaching attacks. Also, some monsters like aquamancers make a ton of noise, so everybody and their brother comes to the party. I agree that Shoals is much tougher than the others, it should be toned down a little. That is the direction lair branch selection should go, not arbitrary groupings which don't make much sense.

[Berder]

Shoals: dangerous if you are not ranged, lack invisibility, and don't swim or fly. Much less dangerous if you are a blaster caster, invis stabber, ranged fighter, or amphibious. Enemies have few hit points, aren't beefy.

Snake: dangerous if you are an ev-based fighter (constriction), lack rElec or rPois, try to rely on hexes or invis, or generally aren't a beefy tank. Guardian serpents mean you should not be in snake:4 without scrolls of blinking or at least the blink spell. Enemies have lots of hit points.

Swamp: dangerous if you can't kill hydras, or lack rpois. Usually not super dangerous.

Spider: dangerous if you are an ev-based character (webs, paralysis) or a pure mage without seeInvis/+invis (ghost moths). The least dangerous if you happen to be a beefy tank.

Conclusions: the conventional opinion on what branches are "dangerous" appears to be based on what branches are dangerous for an armored melee tank. But there are other kinds of characters. It would be awful for an ev-based OpFi to get both snake and spider; better to replace either with shoals.

[bel]

I find your comment that monsters in Shoals are not beefy while monsters in Snake are beefy really strange. According to wiki: a plain merfolk has twice the HP of a plain Naga. A merfolk impaler has as much HP as a Naga sharpshooter and only slightly less HP than a Greater Naga. Snapping turtles have much more AC and hp than black mambas, and about as much as an anaconda. Naga warriors are indeed beefy. Alligator snapping turtles and kraken have more HP than even Naga Warriors, though they are much less frequent.

As to more subjective opinion:

I do not find Shoals easier at all for a ev-based caster, say a HECj. It depends a lot on whether I have repel missiles and ozo armour etc. Also, it is easy to get swarmed in Shoals from different directions. I find Snake often easier as a caster because Nagas are slow and I can kite them.

About the only class of players for which Shoals can be easier than Snake is stealthy stabbers who have invis. Even then, merfolk aquamancers (there are plenty in Shoals end) have very high MR and can see invis, and they make a ton of noise. Water nymphs can also see invis. Pretty much all monsters shout.

[duvessa]

i find snake easier than shoals (or even swamp/spider) as anything since the only thing there that isn't slow and does actual damage is shock serpent

[pickled_heretic]

swamp < spider =< snake <<< shoals

[byrel]

i find snake easier than shoals (or even swamp/spider) as anything since the only thing there that isn't slow and does actual damage is shock serpent

Also, it is easy to get swarmed in Shoals from different directions. I find Snake often easier as a caster because Nagas are slow and I can kite them.

I think a better term than easy is tactically managable. In each of the lair branches except snake there are unique challenges to applying standard lair tactics. In swamp you're faced with a ton of open water which most monsters can cross at least as fast as you can move on the land. In Shoals, it's mostly land-based threats, but they're ranged and the cover is strictly limited. In Spider the nets and trapdoor spiders prevent easily moving unless you're carefully retracing your steps. Snake has monsters with more dangerous spells and abilities, by and large, but the dungeon is structured such that standard tactics still work AND most threats are slow. Slow threats mostly aren't threats.

So when you're good at dungeon tactics, Snake is going to seem really easy. When you aren't and are relying on your MiBe being beef enough to just tab it... Swamp is going to look a lot easier because of the lower damage output (barring hydras, which you can aa to handle.)

[Wahaha]

This should not have been moved to advice.
To keep this post on topic: It's better to make Lair branches equally difficult than to bother with this swap thing.

[Rast]

According to the bot, Shoals is only the third hardest branch, but they are all fairly close

  Code:

!lg * recent place=snake|shoals|spider|swamp s=br
13878 games for * (recent place=snake|shoals|spider|swamp): 3788x Snake, 3479x Swamp, 3405x Shoals, 3206x Spider

(spot the fallacy)

[Sandman25]

I don't understand the query. Does it list number of deaths?

[Rast]

I don't understand the query. Does it list number of deaths?

It lists where the game ended.

[jejorda2]

Ooh, ooh!

People die on the first lair branch they attempt more often than they die on the second (because completing the branch strengthens the character). And they attempt the easier branch first. So the one they die on is the easier one.

I guess games that end in lair branches without visiting the 4th floor of the other lair branch is what you really want.

[Rast]

!lg * recent nrune=1 s=br
5616 games for * (recent nrune=1): 1208x Vaults, 958x Shoals, 627x Snake, 538x Elf, 502x Swamp, 459x Spider, 420x Abyss, 367x Depths, 161x Slime, 88x D, 75x Crypt, 60x IceCv, 57x Lair, 37x WizLab, 34x Orc, 8x Hell, 8x Tomb, 3x Pan, 3x Dis, Lab, Volcano, Geh

[byrel]

Which clearly shows that you shouldn't wait for shoals as your second branch, since more people die there when going for the second rune, but less than other branches in general.

[bel]

Well, the query still doesn't answer the question of which branch is typically harder. It probably just shows that people do shoals as their second branch quite often (which is understandable), and some of them die there.

[bel]

The basic question we want to ask is: how difficult is a branch for a given character?

One way to look at it is to check what is the average XL of a person entering a branch. The averages for swamp, spider and snake are around 15.8, while that of shoals is 16.6.

  Code:

!lm * recent br.enter=swamp x=avg(xl)
19682 milestones for * (recent br.enter=swamp): avg(xl)=15.89


Now, look at how many people entered a branch, and compare it to how many people died in the branch.

  Code:

!lm * recent br.enter=swamp s=br
19682 milestones for * (recent br.enter=swamp): 19682x Swamp
!lg * recent br=swamp s=br
3481 games for * (recent br=swamp): 3481x Swamp


Ratio for swamp is 17.6%, spider:16.8%, snake:19.3%, shoals is 19.5%

So, people go roughly at same experience level to swamp, snake and spider. But die significantly more in Snake. They go at higher experience level to Shoals and also die the most.

So spider = swamp < snake<<<shoals

[Rast]

I like medians better, so...

  Code:


!lm * recent br.enter x=median(xl) s=br
760576 milestones for * (recent br.enter): 147902x Temple [7], 91400x Lair [11], 61570x Orc [14], 48611x Sewer [6], 39074x Ossuary [7], 35641x IceCv [13], 27101x Lab [12], 26583x Pan [27], 26492x Elf [17], 24430x Vaults [19], 22959x Depths [21], 21092x Bailey [10], 20320x Volcano [13], 19688x Swamp [16], 19534x Snake [16], 19121x Spider [16], 17465x Shoals [17], 13971x Zot [26], 13471x Slime
[23:00:53]   Lash   [23], 12349x Bazaar [19], 11498x Crypt [24], 6950x WizLab [20], 6949x Hell [27], 5872x Trove [22], 5251x Tomb [27], 3917x Dis [27], 3769x Geh [27], 3755x Tar [27], 3631x Coc [27], 120x D [5], 64x Nor [27], 13x Abyss [15], 9x Blade [21], 4x Forest [21]

And sorted by level, with irrelevant branches removed:

  Code:

Sewer [6]
Ossuary [7]
Temple [7]
Bailey [10]
Lair [11]
Lab [12]
Volcano [13]
IceCv [13]
Orc [14]
Swamp [16]
Snake [16]
Spider [16]
Shoals [17]
Elf [17]
Bazaar [19]
Vaults [19]
WizLab [20]
Depths [21]
Trove [22]
Slime [23]
Crypt [24]
Zot [26]
Pan [27]
Hell [27]
Tomb [27]
Dis [27]
Geh [27]
Tar [27]
Coc [27]

[njvack]

so swamp = snake = spider < shoals << bazaar

[partial]

Swamp is easier than the other 3 Lair branches. Shoals is much harder than the other 3 and is often harder than Vaults:1-4. If anything, Shoals should be toned down and Swamp made a little tougher. Spider has been made considerably tougher than it used to be thanks to entropy weavers and nerfs to player rPois.

everyone says this but i've never had a problem w/ shoals

[Sandman25]

Shoals is awful for characters with low MR, low defense, low stealth and weak ranged attack. For example, Tr with few large rocks cares about deep water.

[archaeo]

For example, Tr with few large rocks cares about deep water.

Were you aware you could hit . instead of enter, and the projectile will land where you targeted even if it doesn't hit the enemy?

Edit: I guess enemies that are actually standing in deep water are different, of course, but I didn't find it to be a huge problem on my rock-tossing bros.

[Sprucery]

I'm sure Sandman25 knows that. The point is you can't attack creatures who are in deep water.

Edit: ok you said it :)

[Sandman25]

Also having only a few large rocks means you can run out of them during fight.

[Pollen_Golem]

Would it not befit Crawl more, as a roguelike, to have both Lair branches randomly selected from all 4 possibilities? Then we wouldn't have this guaranteed water-branch and poison-branch. Imagine a merfolk getting both Spider and Snake in one game!