Level 9 spells in 3 rune games

[Sandman25]

I am playing TrFE of Vehumet and I got this after 3 runes in Zot (no brilliance):

  Code:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Iskenderun's Battles  Conj/Chrm      #######.     1%          5    None
b - Sticky Flame          Conj/Fire      ########     0%          4    None
c - Conjure Flame         Conj/Fire      ########     0%          3    None
d - Bolt of Fire          Conj/Fire      ########..   1%          6    None
e - Spectral Weapon       Hex/Chrm       ####....     1%          3    None
f - Fireball              Conj/Fire      ########..   0%          5    None
g - Regeneration          Chrm/Necr      ####......   1%          3    None
h - Song of Slaying       Chrm           ####....     1%          2    None
i - Delayed Fireball      Conj/Fire      N/A          1%          7    ###....
l - Bolt of Magma         Conj/Fire/Erth #######...   1%          5    None
r - Repel Missiles        Chrm/Air       ####..       1%          2    None
u - Animate Skeleton      Necr           N/A          1%          1    None
B - Blink                 Tloc           N/A          1%          2    None
F - Fire Storm            Conj/Fire      ########..   4%          9    ######.
M - Swiftness             Chrm/Air       ####....     1%          2    None
P - Summon Butterflies    Summ           ####....     1%          1    None

   Skills:
 - Level 14.9 Fighting
 - Level 12.0 Maces & Flails
 - Level 11.5 Dodging
 - Level 1.1 Stealth
 - Level 15.0 Shields
 + Level 15.8 Spellcasting
 * Level 18.8 Conjurations
 * Level 19.5 Fire Magic
 - Level 2.0 Earth Magic

Is it "well-rounded" character? Why do we say that going for level 9 spells in 3 rune games is a bad idea?

[Sar]

because there's a big gap between "I have level 6 spell online" and "I have level 9 spell online" and when you are feeding XP in that gap you aren't feeding it in smaller other gaps that make your char better more gradually

and you don't really need more than 6-7 level spells to win

at least that's how it feels to me

[Sandman25]

But it is very easy to get level 9 spell (at least with Vehumet). As you can see I have only 18-19 levels in Conj/Fire, that's less than min delay for bardiche/exec. axe, for example and nobody is saying "don't go for top tier weapons in 3 rune game".

Edit. Similarly there is a gap between great sword and triple sword etc. and we all know that it's possible to win with spear but I doubt it's possible to win with Magic Dart so casters have more reason for higher spells than warriors have reason to go for higher weapons.

[GrumpD]

because there's a big gap between "I have level 6 spell online" and "I have level 9 spell online" and when you are feeding XP in that gap you aren't feeding it in smaller other gaps that make your char better more gradually

and you don't really need more than 6-7 level spells to win

at least that's how it feels to me

I see this thinking here frequently, and I'm not disagreeing (I don't know enough to disagree!).

Why though, is it better to have a more capable character in several skills than a master of one? What's the prevailing thought behind this?

Edit: Cleaned up quoting weirdness from posting via phone.

[ydeve]

I don't see why a non-pure "blaster caster" would need lvl 9 spells in a 3 rune game. If conjurations is your only way of dealing damage, then sure it's necessary. Otherwise, that xp could be spent somewhere else to increase your character's survivability.

[mps]

What's your turn count like?

High level spells involve xp investment, which is a tradeoff, but they also involve a tradeoff with armor and perhaps stats. Melee and ranged weapon skills don't have those problems. They don't conflict with heavy armor and they don't require/benefit from special purpose stats (int) that are otherwise useless. Dex contributes directly to defenses and non-magical damage, where int does nothing for either.

The pattern I see over and over again in talking about how magic is great is using whether or not a character can win as a metric of character power. This is too coarse and it's a silly metric anyway. You can win with ridiculously badly built characters. This doesn't mean ridiculously badly built characters are actually good, it just means that good (i.e. conservative) tactics are more important than strategy, by far.

[byrel]

Well, first my experience: I play spriggans a decent amount and around V:1 I start planning for a Zot weapon. By far, the most reliable and potent are level 9 spells; I've done tornado repeatedly, singularity once(RIP), Summon Dragon a few times. To be clear, this is on a character who has not and will not use elemental spells for primary damage. I'm literally training up a level 9 spell school from 0 with negative aptitudes for the level 9 spell. I'll use maybe 1-2 more spells from the school because I have it of course. I think this is super viable on a Sp, as you can have all the skill you need to end the game by Vaults. Ridiculously good aptitudes on everything you need except for fighting and armour.

Now that actually contradicts my advice most of the time to new players; for them I emphasize that level 6 skills are plenty (they are) and encourage them to diversify. This is because:

• New players on a caster tend to view their castable spells (or maybe spell power) as the primary limit on their advancement through the game. This is wrong; their tactics and use of utility is what they need to actually pull a win.
• Having Haste and C'Blink available is going to do more for their survival than being able to cast Fire Storm

In general, I don't think it's a problem to get a level 9 spell up for Zot:5 if you are running light armor and worshipping Veh, on pretty much any class+background+playstyle. It's kind of a Veh signature that way. On the other hand, you won't have access to the panic button spells most gods give. Your panic button is BoF and later firestorm. I also probably wouldn't play a DE without getting a level 9 by Zot:5. If it fits in your XP budget without crippling you, go for it.

Edit: Just for example, my recent Sp of Ru sacrificed skill aptitudes by 1 across the board, trained a bunch of long swords and necromancy just to get a demon blade of pain good, had every buff I wanted castable (Haste, etc.) and still had a level 9 spell by Zot:5. It's not just the normal Sp stabber XP glut; there's really plenty of XP in the 3-runer.

[radinms]

because the best spell in crawl is the melee, not Lv9 spell

[tabstorm]

Is this after clearing Z:1-4? How much INT? I feel like I have had deep elves with vehumet + wizardry that needed more investment in conjurations and fire magic to cast FS.

[Hurkyl]

Sp stabber XP glut; there's really plenty of XP in the 3-runer.

To be fair, Spriggan defense is primarily EV + movespeed based, and Sp has great Dodging aptitude, so there is a lot of free XP available until you decide to crank up the HP/AC part of your defenses.

[byrel]

Sp stabber XP glut; there's really plenty of XP in the 3-runer.

To be fair, Spriggan defense is primarily EV + movespeed based, and Sp has great Dodging aptitude, so there is a lot of free XP available until you decide to crank up the HP/AC part of your defenses.

In general I agree, Sp have a glut of XP. But when you're raising Long swords+necromany to 14, and have sacrificed your aptitudes all down 1, things get expensive. Pretty sure long blades was -3 apt, etc.

[Sandman25]

Is this after clearing Z:1-4? How much INT? I feel like I have had deep elves with vehumet + wizardry that needed more investment in conjurations and fire magic to cast FS.

Yes, I am in Zot 5 (Int 37), yet I haven't killed anything on Crypt 2 and haven't entered Crypt 3 (had to retreat because I had no way to kill cursed skull). The Int is quite high indeed but all other species don't have -3 aptitude in Conj/Fire and -5 in Spellcasting so I am sure it can be easier with other species and low Int. I am with Vehumet and wizardry too (no enhancers).
Turn count is 109k, not sure why it is important since I never autoexplore without 100% HP/MP.
Also as you can see I invested a lot in Fighting/Dodging/Shields/Demon Whip at min dealy so the argument about "get defenses instead" does not apply.
With Tornado/Shatter/Dragon Call it would be ridiculously easy. (Yesterday I spectated a Fe of Sif Muna with Dragon Call at XL 19 and Int 28).

We should stop saying "ignore level 9 spells for 3 rune games" IMHO.

[bcadren]

I find it weird that all most the spellschools that have level 9 spells...have no level 8 spell and very little at level 7. Fire just has Delayed FBall and RoF at 7; no 8. Air has no 7 or 8. [Deflect Missiles, Silence and Ball Lightning tied at 6]. Earth actually -does- have a level 8 spell (Lehu's Crystal Spear); but actually has no level 7 (Statue and Iron Shot tied at 6). Ice has one level 7 (simulacrum) which second school has nothing to do with other ice spells (necro); all the other conjurer-spells (ozo's refrigeration, bolt of cold, freezing cloud) are level 6. There's a huge gap where the are so few level 7 and 8 spells.

[Sandman25]

Lack of level 7-8 spells allows to switch to heavier amour while working on level 9 spells and still have level 6 spells at 1-2%.

[radinms]

I find it weird that all most the spellschools that have level 9 spells...have no level 8 spell and very little at level 7. Fire just has Delayed FBall and RoF at 7; no 8. Air has no 7 or 8. [Deflect Missiles, Silence and Ball Lightning tied at 6]. Earth actually -does- have a level 8 spell (Lehu's Crystal Spear); but actually has no level 7 (Statue and Iron Shot tied at 6). Ice has one level 7 (simulacrum) which second school has nothing to do with other ice spells (necro); all the other conjurer-spells (ozo's refrigeration, bolt of cold, freezing cloud) are level 6. There's a huge gap where the are so few level 7 and 8 spells.

simulacrum is Lv6 spell

[GrumpD]

If I'm following the thread clearly, it sounds like Level 9 spells require enough xp to make a character vulnerable or weak for a 3 rune game. As a newer player, it's very difficult at times to suss out just how long it may take to effectively skill into something, how directly aptitudes play a role in advancement, and what effect ability scores also have. Apart from these sources of ignorance on the part of a new player like myself, I think new players may also consider trying to skill into level 9's because they've had poor armor or weapon drops and feel under-prepared, where a level 9 could be the "silver bullet" or "nuke button" to make the character viable.

If the design is meant to be oblique or contain "newbie traps" (like sinking xp into something that will make you more likely to die), that's one thing. If that's not the case though, why make level 9 spells available at all before extended? Is there a way to mark or describe these spells in-game so that new players avoid them? Personally, I'd rather get spellbooks during the 3 rune game, that, ya know, are for the 3 rune game instead of spells that most players consider to be a poor choice. When I get a book that I can't read in-game and is marked as "high level," I think, "Oh sweet, I just got access to some awesome and powerful magic," when I should think "this book has spells in it that I should probably ignore."

I know this is becoming lengthy, but one more thought. I can't call to mind any equipment or consumables that exist in the game which players know should be used exclusively in extended, so why would a player assume that spells deviate from this standard?

[byrel]

If I'm following the thread clearly, it sounds like Level 9 spells require enough xp to make a character vulnerable or weak for a 3 rune game.

This isn't generally true, which is Sandman's point. What is generally true is that when you get your level 5-6 online, you should spend a while on on training other things. Defences, utility spells and melee/inv/evo/ranged. You can still have plenty of XP for a level 9 in Z:5, especially one of the single school ones.

As a newer player, it's very difficult at times to suss out just how long it may take to effectively skill into something, how directly aptitudes play a role in advancement, and what effect ability scores also have.

Definitely true. But I think the decision of whether/when to skill a level 9 spell up is a relatively minor part of this. Though it is one of the (many) parts people tend to mess up at first.

I think new players may also consider trying to skill into level 9's because they've had poor armor or weapon drops and feel under-prepared, where a level 9 could be the "silver bullet" or "nuke button" to make the character viable.

The advice these people need is that if they have their level 5-6 spells up, that's technically enough offence for the full 3-rune game. If they feel weak, other areas are what you need to buff, not offense. (It tends to be hard to distinguish what you need more of for a newbie. It often feels like you just need more of everything. )

Personally, I'd rather get spellbooks during the 3 rune game, that, ya know, are for the 3 rune game instead of spells that most players consider to be a poor choice.

I suspect newbies have a much higher Zot:5 survival rate with a level 9 spell under their belt. It's just that they need to realize that it will be important for the end of a 3-runer, not right now.

When I get a book that I can't read in-game and is marked as "high level," I think, "Oh sweet, I just got access to some awesome and powerful magic," when I should think "this book has spells in it that I should probably ignore."

Fortunately, the dev team's doing away with the highlevel book label. It didn't do much useful, and could be misleading. If your an FE, and you get a high level EE book, you probably shouldn't try to get those spells up for a 3-runer. Unless already training Earth for bolt of Magma or something. Hiding the highlevel book behind a {highlevel} tag made people pay attention instead of ignore spells that didn't fit their character.

I can't call to mind any equipment or consumables that exist in the game which players know should be used exclusively in extended, so why would a player assume that spells deviate from this standard?

Weapons of holy wrath, rN, and stasis are almost exclusively useful in the late game, with exceptions similar to level 9s (Yeah, HW is good in Crypt which is 3-rune territory. But it's close to the end of 3-rune territory now.)

[GrumpD]

Very thoughtful reply, thanks byrel--the clarifications are meaningful.

[Hurkyl]

IMO, the problem is not that lvl 9 spells require that much XP, but the huge gap between lvl 6 and lvl 9 in which the XP spent does very little for you.

With melee skills, you might train to 16 Axe skill and bash things with your +4 war axe. Then you pick up a +4 broad axe, train to 18 Axes, and you're now doing 25% more damage. Then you pick up a +4 battleaxe, train to 20 axes, and you've boosted damage by another 20%. (i.e. 50% more than you were doing with the war axe)

But with magic, you might train to 12 Conjurations and 12 Fire, and have Bolt of Fire semi-reliable. Then you train up to 14 Conjurations and 14 Fire... and are maybe doing 10% more damage. Then you train up to 15 Conjurations and 15 Fire... and I'm not sure you've even increased how much damage you're doing (I don't recall how the rounding works), and you still aren't anywhere close to casting Fire Storm.

(note how people give the comparable advise not to train your weapon skills past min delay -- if you had stuck with the war axe the whole time, training up to 20 axes would have only improved your damage by a similar figure: around 10%)

The gap between lvl 6 and lvl 9 is really large -- the misleading thing that Fire Storm looks like the next step up from Bolt of Fire, when in reality it's like 3 to 5 steps higher, but all of the intermediate steps are missing so you have to take it in one big leap.

[nago]

Btw in 3 runes game I most of time I feel comfortably to use battle axe/glaive /great sword and I rarely go for bigger option unless they having very good brand (vamp/am mostly) or being with Trog or eventually Oka

[Sandman25]

I started HuFE in wiz mode, assigned it to Vehumet, gave +2 Str/Int/Dex at random level up (Hu gets a random stat every 4th level), +9 Int as chosen bonus, and then increased XL while training skills.
So here is what I got at XL 27:

  Code:

Health: 70/199     AC:  2    Str: 10    XL:     27
Magic:  6/44       EV: 19    Int: 26    God:    Vehumet 200 (0)
Gold:   0          SH:  0    Dex: 15    Spells: 3 memorised, 45 levels left

rFire  . . .     SeeInvis .     (no weapon)
rCold  . . .     Clarity  .     a - +0 robe
rNeg   . . .     SustAt   .     (no shield)
rPois  .         Gourm    .     (no helmet)
rElec  .         Spirit   .     (no cloak)
rCorr  .         Warding  .     (no gloves)
rMut   .         Stasis   .     (no boots)
MR     ++...                    (no amulet)
Stlth  ++........               (no ring)
                                w - ring of wizardry {wiz+, !d}

@: very resistant to hostile enchantments, unstealthy
A: no striking features
a: Renounce Religion


You are on level 1 of the Dungeon.
You worship Vehumet.
Vehumet is exalted by your worship.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 1 branch of the dungeon, and seen 1 of its levels.

   Skills:
 - Level 12.9 Fighting
 - Level 11.4 Maces & Flails
 - Level 11.5 Dodging
 - Level 2.0 Stealth
 + Level 17.6 Spellcasting
 * Level 23.3 Conjurations
 * Level 23.4 Fire Magic


You have 45 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Fire Storm            Conj/Fire      97 (200)     2%          9    541
l - Bolt of Fire          Conj/Fire      97 (200)     1%          6    91
z - Flame Tongue          Conj/Fire      40 (40)      0%          1    0

Cast which spell? (? or * to list)
Aiming: Bolt of Fire
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f - ball python
Aim: a ball python (hasn't noticed you, chance 72%)
Rolled 42 for 6d14
The bolt of fire hits the ball python.(damage 42)
You kill the ball python!

Cast which spell? (? or * to list)
The spell is slightly dangerous to cast. Continue anyway?
Aiming: Fire Storm
Press: ? - help, Dir - move target cursor
A raging storm of fire appears!
Rolled 62 for 8d13
The great blast of fire engulfs the giant newt.(damage 62)
You kill the giant newt!


Weak character? I don't think so.

If we stop training Conj/Fire/Spellcasting when they are at skill level 12 we will have something like this:

  Code:

 + Level 12.0 Spellcasting
 * Level 12.0 Conjurations
 * Level 12.0 Fire Magic


You have 34 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Fire Storm            Conj/Fire      67 (200)     95%         9    688
l - Bolt of Fire          Conj/Fire      67 (200)     1%          6    238
z - Flame Tongue          Conj/Fire      40 (40)      1%          1    0

Cast which spell? (? or * to list)
Aiming: Bolt of Fire
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f - kobold
Aim: a kobold (resting, chance 100%)
Rolled 38 for 6d10
The bolt of fire hits the kobold.(damage 36)
You kill the kobold!

6d10 vs 6d14, 40% difference, not that low (bardiche vs glaive is 20% difference).

[Hurkyl]

6d10 vs 6d14 is closer to a 36% difference on the average damage roll. (1d10 averages 5.5, 1d14 averages 7.5)

I'm not sure what analogy you're trying to make with bardiche vs glaive; if I was trying to make a comparison of the benefit of training weapons along with weapon upgrades vs. the benefit of training magic with just bolt of fire:

With your stats, 12 fighting and 16 polearms skill (comparable to 12/12/12 spellcasting/conjurations/fire), a +4 halberd is doing 12.1 AvEffDam to a hill giant.

Whereas for your fully-trained character, using the same experience for melee skills instead of magic skills might give 21 fighting 26 polearms, and such a character would do 22.9 AvEffDam to a hill giant with a +4 bardiche in hand, closer to a 90% increase. (actually more than that since I forgot to take into account -1 spellcasting aptitude, so maybe 22 fighting?) I suppose even this is a bit biased in favor of magic, since I'm training fighting up from 0 to make this comparison.

(this figure would be much larger than 90% if my test dummy was more armoured; AC would have comparatively little effect on the 36% figure above comparing the magic spells)

I had been looking at axes, where the difference is even greater; the exe axe is comparable to the bardiche, but the war axe is a fair bit weaker than the halberd.

[Sandman25]

6d10 vs 6d14 is closer to a 36% difference on the average damage roll. (1d10 averages 5.5, 1d14 averages 7.5)

I'm not sure what analogy you're trying to make with bardiche vs glaive; if I was trying to make a comparison of the benefit of training weapons along with weapon upgrades vs. the benefit of training magic with just bolt of fire:

With your stats, 12 fighting and 16 polearms skill (comparable to 12/12/12 spellcasting/conjurations/fire), a +4 halberd is doing 12.1 AvEffDam to a hill giant.

Whereas for your fully-trained character, using the same experience for melee skills instead of magic skills might give 21 fighting 26 polearms, and such a character would do 22.9 AvEffDam to a hill giant with a +4 bardiche in hand, closer to a 90% increase. (actually more than that since I forgot to take into account -1 spellcasting aptitude, so maybe 22 fighting?) I suppose even this is a bit biased in favor of magic, since I'm training fighting up from 0 to make this comparison.

(this figure would be much larger than 90% if my test dummy was more armoured; AC would have comparatively little effect on the 36% figure above comparing the magic spells)

I had been looking at axes, where the difference is even greater; the exe axe is comparable to the bardiche, but the war axe is a fair bit weaker than the halberd.

The increase for melee damage is higher because initial value is small. 6d10 from Bolt of Fire is better than 22.9 AvEffDam of glaive and 6d14 is even better.
Here is reason to use Fire Storm during orb run (from another thread)

  Code:

A Shadow Fiend comes into view.
Casting: Bolt of Magma
Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells.
The spell is slightly dangerous to cast. Continue anyway?
Aiming: Fire Storm
Press: ? - help, Dir - move target cursor, f - Shadow Fiend
Aim: a Shadow Fiend
A raging storm of fire appears!
Rolled 59 for 8d13
The great blast of fire engulfs the Shadow Fiend.(damage 45)
The Shadow Fiend is heavily wounded.
You hear a shout!
Unknown command.
Casting: Fire Storm
Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells.
The spell is slightly dangerous to cast. Continue anyway?
Aiming: Fire Storm
Press: ? - help, Dir - move target cursor, f/p - Shadow Fiend
Aim: a Shadow Fiend (flame, heavily wounded)
A raging storm of fire appears!
Rolled 73 for 8d14
The great blast of fire engulfs the Shadow Fiend.(damage 62)
You kill the Shadow Fiend!

Bardiche or glaive would not achieve anything like that.

[Wahaha]

Sandman addressed this in his last post but I also want to say it: training magic skills above what is required for lvl 6 spells increases spellpower. Sandman has the damage numbers for bolt of fire, but note that it also increases accuracy. I haven't paid attention to bolt of fire spellpower in practice so I'm not going to say anything about the effectiveness of increasing bolt of fire spellpower. Iron shot however, the difference with increased spellpower is huge. In many games I have trained earth+conj far above what is required to cast it, and the returns are great. There are few skills better than a 30% increase in damage and accuracy for your main attack. Haste is better, and low levels of hp and defenses are better, that's about it.

[Sandman25]

Also see my TrFE in YAVP forum, it has 2% Fire Storm with 3 runes and "only" Int 32. I believe most book backgrounds can get Int 32 with some minor luck and all species (even Mu/Mi) have better aptitude than Tr has for Spellcasting/Conj/Fire.

[duvessa]

One of the assumptions we make when telling people not to get level 9 spells is that they are not with vehumet, because vehumet is a bad god. If you are already with vehumet getting a level 9 spell is sometimes okay. It's very rare for it to be even close to worth it otherwise.

[Sandman25]

One of the assumptions we make when telling people not to get level 9 spells is that they are not with vehumet, because vehumet is a bad god. If you are already with vehumet getting a level 9 spell is sometimes okay. It's very rare for it to be even close to worth it otherwise.

I see. So we have "don't go for level 9 spells with good gods i.e. Trog, Fedhas, Makhleb, Yred and Kiku". Yes, I agree of course.

[Blink Frog]

It would be helpful if the game was more explicit about the cost to get each skill level--specifically, how levels 1-10 are waaaaaay cheaper than 15+. That will help newer players understand that you can't get Fire to 20 in the same amount of time as it takes to get Armour and Fighting to 10 each.

Also, I think telling new players "the cost of level 9 spells is really high and you are more likely to survive if you spend some xp on rounding out your character's weapon, defenses, and fighting first, before you chase after that level 9 nuke" is better than telling them "don't get level 9 spells in a 3 rune game."

This all having been said, getting Firestorm up and running by the second rune with a DE is just flat out hilarious. Optimal? No. Fun? Heck, yes.

[triorph]

There is a lot of room for wasting around in a 3 rune game that many will not do, and yet will grant a huge difference in XP given for levelling up spells.

Crypt, Elf, Vaults, Slime, Abyss. None of these are necessary, and its completely possible for a 3 rune game to only do one of these (say Slime) and have significantly less XP than would be required to make the character above.

[mps]

109k turns says extreme luring and resting to compensate for a weak character through most of the game to me.

There's a certain, not very high threshold for winning a character, which involves some combination of the character's intrinsic merits, strategy, and tactics. Deficits in the first and second can usually be made up for with the third. In the extreme, tactics involves trading time for lack of survivability and stopping power (i.e. deficits in strategy or intrinsic characteristics). Since time is unlimited and many people profess not to care how many turns they take, you get this strange situation where characters that clearly struggle are viewed as equivalent to ones that don't.

[bel]

If you have just got fire storm castable in Zot:5 after getting 3 runes, I would say that the statement "lvl 9 spells don't exist in 3-rune games" is close to true.

[Sandman25]

109k turns says extreme luring and resting to compensate for a weak character through most of the game to me.

There's a certain, not very high threshold for winning a character, which involves some combination of the character's intrinsic merits, strategy, and tactics. Deficits in the first and second can usually be made up for with the third. In the extreme, tactics involves trading time for lack of survivability and stopping power. Since time is unlimited and many people profess not to care how many turns they take, you get this strange situation where characters that clearly struggle are viewed as equivalent to ones that don't.

I am not sure what you are trying to prove here. That DDBe and VSBe spend less time winning than TrFE who refused to train UC for flavor reasons and stayed with magic all game?
This thread is about "it's optimal to go for level 9 spell in 3 rune game with some characters if you are trying to maximize chance to win". If you are trying to minimize turn count, you should stop using spells as soon as you find a weapon and do not care about dying (otherwise you would be luring if it isn't clear)

[Sandman25]

If you have just got fire storm castable in Zot:5 after getting 3 runes, I would say that the statement "lvl 9 spells don't exist in 3-rune games" is close to true.

This is Tr and it casted the spell 110 times in 3 rune game (see YAVP forum with full dump if you are interested).
It was castable with brilliance in Zig and without brilliance when I entered Zot 1.

[duvessa]

That DDBe and VSBe spend less time winning than TrFE who refused to train UC for flavor reasons and stayed with magic all game?
This thread is about "it's optimal to go for level 9 spell in 3 rune game with some characters if you are trying to maximize chance to win".

you're not doing a very good job of demonstrating that then

[Sandman25]

That DDBe and VSBe spend less time winning than TrFE who refused to train UC for flavor reasons and stayed with magic all game?
This thread is about "it's optimal to go for level 9 spell in 3 rune game with some characters if you are trying to maximize chance to win".

you're not doing a very good job of demonstrating that then

Really? I assumed that it is easy to realize that HE will have Tornado castable much earlier than Tr will have Fire Storm castable.

[mps]

109k turns says extreme luring and resting to compensate for a weak character through most of the game to me.

There's a certain, not very high threshold for winning a character, which involves some combination of the character's intrinsic merits, strategy, and tactics. Deficits in the first and second can usually be made up for with the third. In the extreme, tactics involves trading time for lack of survivability and stopping power. Since time is unlimited and many people profess not to care how many turns they take, you get this strange situation where characters that clearly struggle are viewed as equivalent to ones that don't.

I am not sure what you are trying to prove here. That DDBe and VSBe spend less time winning than TrFE who refused to train UC for flavor reasons and stayed with magic all game?
This thread is about "it's optimal to go for level 9 spell in 3 rune game with some characters if you are trying to maximize chance to win". If you are trying to minimize turn count, you should stop using spells as soon as you find a weapon and do not care about dying (otherwise you would be luring if it isn't clear)

That's a more extreme position than I read you as taking. Obviously optimal play for this character would've been UC + trog and burn book or oka and cast stone skin until you get real armor. That's a pretty solid plan for any Tr, really, except for the stoneskin part.

I think there's a narrow range of chars for which fire storm et al. make sense in a 3 rune game. Most are deep elves.

[Sandman25]

I think there's a narrow range of chars for which fire storm et al. make sense in a 3 rune game. Most are deep elves.

Good, this is what I tried to disprove. If there is enough XP in 3 rune game for Tr to get good defense, good HP, good melee and Fire Storm, it's obvious to me that DE is not the only species where going for level 9 spells is optimal with some gods. I suspect it can be optimal with most species (and Vehumet/Sif Muna/Ashenzari).

[byrel]

I think we need to clarify something here; Sandman isn't claiming it's optimal to train up Fire Storm on a troll in a 3-rune game. Optimal play probably involves worshiping trog at the first opportunity. Or maybe sticking with a few utility spells and slashing things in UC.

Instead, he chose a troll specifically for it's terrible aptitudes to simply illustrate how much XP there is in a 3-rune game. With that much XP, he was even able to get a troll casting FS in a 3-runer with decent defenses. The logic is that if a troll has that much xp, surely a good caster race can get half that much for a single school level 9. And given the potency of level 9s, he's asserting it's optimal to do so, since it's relatively easy to fit in.

My experience on stabbers backs this up. I don't play blasty types much.

Edit: I'm ninja'd...

[mps]

The defenses on that character sucked... what are you talking about?

I think sandman25 proves that a good player can win anything.

I've been sticking with comparisons to melee oriented builds in this thread because the char is TrFE (which I misread as TrEE before, hence stoneskin silliness in the previous comments). With DE, Te, and to a lesser extend HE, I think you also have to contend with the fact that summons are going to give you more value than conjurations throughout the game and require less investment to reach a winning spell set. So there are at least two strong alternatives to level 9 conjurations: summons including MM, shadow creatures, and one or more higher level one (e.g. XXX); and heavy armor with big melee weapons or ranged weapons. The set of characters for which one of those two options isn't better than level 9 conjurations is narrow indeed.

[byrel]

The defenses on that character sucked... what are you talking about?

15 fighting
12 dodging
15 shield

That sounds run of the mill for casters to me. Especially with built in robust and bad apts.

[mps]

There is no contradiction here.

[bel]

This is not really relevant to the larger point, but I don't find the character's defences bad. It had 10 AC, 16 EV and 27 SH. Recall that SH is roughly equal to EV in effectiveness. I would not call a character with 300 HP, 10 AC (+ stoneskin) and 43 EV as having bad defences. It's basically a Sp with 300 HP.

[KoboldLord]

The character had an artefact +6 vampiric demon whip with +10 int that the OP didn't see any reason to mention in the first post on this thread. +10 int goes a pretty long way towards making magic skill investment more affordable, and a +6 vampiric demon whip means you have a whole lot of unnecessary xp to piss away because holy crap a vampiric demon whip.

It's entirely probable that there are exceptions to the general rule that Fire Storm is a bad investment in a three-Rune game, and perhaps this character is exactly such an edge case. However, if I'm going to be giving my recommendations to somebody who isn't already skilled enough to play conjurations trolls and make them work, I'm going to be giving them some more general-purpose recommendations because those are actually likely to be useful. Newbies often benefit most from being reminded that they should work on the basics rather than rushing for the shiny. They don't usually benefit from being told that they can totally do silly things as long as they get lucky enough with loot to cover all their questionable choices in xp training.

[byrel]

I agree this is a bad test case, but I'm inclined to agree with sandman in general. I think a lot of casters can afford to get a level 9 by zot 5.

Maybe I'll run a DrWz or somesuch and go for it next game.

[Sandman25]

The character had an artefact +6 vampiric demon whip with +10 int that the OP didn't see any reason to mention in the first post on this thread. +10 int goes a pretty long way towards making magic skill investment more affordable, and a +6 vampiric demon whip means you have a whole lot of unnecessary xp to piss away because holy crap a vampiric demon whip.

It's entirely probable that there are exceptions to the general rule that Fire Storm is a bad investment in a three-Rune game, and perhaps this character is exactly such an edge case. However, if I'm going to be giving my recommendations to somebody who isn't already skilled enough to play conjurations trolls and make them work, I'm going to be giving them some more general-purpose recommendations because those are actually likely to be useful. Newbies often benefit most from being reminded that they should work on the basics rather than rushing for the shiny. They don't usually benefit from being told that they can totally do silly things as long as they get lucky enough with loot to cover all their questionable choices in xp training.

You can see full dump of the game in YAVP forum, the character has 2% FS with 32 Int (12 Int from gear). It's a Tr with bad int and even worse aptitudes for magic.
And no, I am not saying it was optimal to go for FS with the character though I am not sure what could be optimal. More HP? What else?

[byrel]

And no, I am not saying it was optimal to go for FS with the character though I am not sure what could be optimal. More HP? What else?

A lot of UC and worshiping Trog instead of Vehumet.

[Bart]

I like level 9 spells in 3-runner, but this character doesn't prove it's a good idea.

If you get +10 int item AND wizardry AND worship Vehumet, casting lvl 9 spells is well-founded except not reperesentative at all.

Spellcasting oriented character without wizardry source, +int source, enhancer or good light armour is a typical case of an incompetent firestorm-wannabe mage. His midgame will suck and if the character manages to get to zot:5, it'll cast firestorm several times only to find it's underwhelming against OOFs without spellpower.

Belief that one will get all mentioned resources at some point of 3-runner is unfounded. While a good player might get away with overtrained magic and crippled defenses, he'll have to put much more effort to win the game. So, we do say that going for level 9 spell in a 3-runner is a bad idea because the percentage of characters for whom it is a good idea is less than several %.

[Sandman25]

And no, I am not saying it was optimal to go for FS with the character though I am not sure what could be optimal. More HP? What else?

A lot of UC and worshiping Trog instead of Vehumet.

I mean after I got Bolt of Fire to 1% what should I train next?

[Sandman25]

I like level 9 spells in 3-runner, but this character doesn't prove it's a good idea.

If you get +10 int item AND wizardry AND worship Vehumet, casting lvl 9 spells is well-founded except not reperesentative at all.

Spellcasting oriented character without wizardry source, +int source, enhancer or good light armour is a typical case of an incompetent firestorm-wannabe mage. His midgame will suck and if the character manages to get to zot:5, it'll cast firestorm several times only to find it's underwhelming against OOFs without spellpower.

Belief that one will get all mentioned resources at some point of 3-runner is unfounded. While a good player might get away with overtrained magic and crippled defenses, he'll have to put much more effort to win the game. So, we do say that going for level 9 spell in a 3-runner is a bad idea because the percentage of characters for whom it is a good idea is less than several %.

The TrFE had natural Int 11 (no Int on random levelups of course), I added 9 as bonus for every 3rd level so it had Int 20, really low.
You can see HuFE example earlier in the thread, it has Int 26. Do you think it's hard to get 6 Int from gear to get Int 32? Or train Conj/Fire/Spellcasting higher with 0/0/-1 aptitudes than with -3/-3/-5? Also note another example about Fe of Sif Muna who had Dragon Call castable at XL 19 with Int 28.

I had FS castable in Vaults 5 (where I haven't used it because I chose a different strategy), in Zot1+ and in Crypt 2+. Another species can have FS castable in late Depths or even earlier. Also please don't forget that it was dual school spell, for example, my DDEE had Shatter in Vault 2 without entering Depths.
Main thing I am trying to prove is that there is lots of XP to have level 9 spell, good defense and weapon. Defense does not have any problems by the way, I had Shields as my highest skill for quite some time (15 after finding a large shield).

Edit. More specifically, there is only minor benefit for having Armour/Dodging/Fighting/Weapon 24 instead of 18 but there is a huge benefit for having magic school 24 instead of 18 if it allows you to cast level 9 spell.

[Sandman25]

Belief that one will get all mentioned resources at some point of 3-runner is unfounded. While a good player might get away with overtrained magic and crippled defenses, he'll have to put much more effort to win the game. So, we do say that going for level 9 spell in a 3-runner is a bad idea because the percentage of characters for whom it is a good idea is less than several %.

Sorry for picking your own game but I found this:
http://crawl.xtahua.com/crawl/morgue/ba ... 192446.txt

You even trained some "useless" skills to have both Iron Shot at 1% and Dragon Call at 4% in 3 rune game. Also large shield and overtrained charms.

  Code:

   Skills:
 + Level 12.9 Fighting
 - Level 8.0(12.5) Dodging
 - Level 5.8(10.3) Stealth
 - Level 21.6(23.8) Shields
 - Level 19.5 Spellcasting
 - Level 12.8(16.9) Conjurations
 - Level 7.0(11.5) Charms
 - Level 20.7(24.1) Summonings
 - Level 7.6(12.1) Necromancy
 - Level 2.5(6.1) Translocations
 - Level 12.1(16.3) Fire Magic
 - Level 6.0(10.5) Earth Magic
 - Level 12.5(16.6) Evocations


You couldn't memorise any spells.
You knew the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Summon Horrible Thin  Summ           ########..   1%          8    #####..
b - Dragon's Call         Summ           ########..   4%          9    ######.
c - Sticky Flame          Conj/Fire      #######.     0%          4    None
d - Fireball              Conj/Fire      #######...   1%          5    None
e - Dispel Undead         Necr           #######.     1%          5    None
f - Spellforged Servitor  Conj/Summ      ########..   1%          7    ###....
g - Sublimation of Blood  Necr           #######...   0%          2    None
h - Blink                 Tloc           N/A          1%          2    None
i - Bolt of Draining      Conj/Necr      #######...   1%          5    None
j - Repel Missiles        Chrm/Air       ######       1%          2    None
k - Iron Shot             Conj/Erth      #######...   1%          6    None
A - Apportation           Tloc           ######....   1%          1    None
H - Haste                 Chrm           #######.     1%          6    None
R - Regeneration          Chrm/Necr      #######...   1%          3    None

Still arguing that there is not enough XP to have level 9 spell and good defense?

Edit. Oh, you spent 1k turns in Pan instead of clearing Lair/Crypt, I guess you could have even more XP in standard game.