Are OOFs good enemies?


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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 13:03

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

Well, I've won Nethack 15+ times (all classes) and I have to say in Nethack winning characters look much more similar to each other than in 3-rune Crawl. Unless you follow some voluntary conducts like go naked.
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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 13:13

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

Sprucery wrote:Well, I've won Nethack 15+ times (all classes) and I have to say in Nethack winning characters look much more similar to each other than in 3-rune Crawl. Unless you follow some voluntary conducts like go naked.


byrel wrote:Crawl has the advantage of being less kitified, which is one of the reasons I play it more. You can have EV instead of AC. Or just a boatload of HP.


That's exactly what I was talking about. But
byrel wrote: You still need some source of rF++ and rMut (or a ridiculous number of potions.) You still need either irresistable damage or ninja tools.


And the way those requirements are put on the user (via the special case of a particular monster) is very spoilery and Nethacky. And just badly themed.

I fully agree that crawl is better than Nethack at avoiding specific requirements. I heartily approve of the design goal. And that's why I can use Nethack as an example when trying to point out the same flaws when they exist in crawl.
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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 13:49

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

I like the idea of having games where you encounter blizzard orbs or orbs of suffering or storm orbs instead of orbs of fire. This reduces the tendency to say, "All else being equal, choose fire resistance over others because it will be important in Zot."

Give some of these something that makes clarity and stasis more valuable than rMut, and either only have one kind per floor in Zot or one kind per game.

Perhaps all are fair game on the ascension?

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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 13:52

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

Note that if we consider floors with mixed orbs, we should worry about encouraging people to retreat upstairs to do a major equipment swap to get the correct resistances each time they come across and isolate new orb.

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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 13:59

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

Hurkyl wrote:Note that if we consider floors with mixed orbs, we should worry about encouraging people to retreat upstairs to do a major equipment swap to get the correct resistances each time they come across and isolate new orb.


Not all characters have Haste spell so if player wants to spend a charge of haste to change equipment, it's good. Also as mentioned above some of those monsters can encourage using stasis (Blink Other?).

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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 14:04

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

Well, certainly a lot of interesting opinions here. I guess I'll have to try summoning against them again, last time I tried shadow creatures I either got 1 moth of wrath, or a couple draconians who got roasted. Of course, that character also had a big old axe, which does the job just fine.

My goto on characters without a big old weapon is typically orb of destruction. Firestorm will do the job, but not very efficiently, meaning you might run out of MP with a still living orb of fire.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying "OOFs OP, plz nerf". I'm just questioning whether they add to or detract from crawl. Just because they kill players does not make them good design, that's an absurd standard, a monster with 10000 hp, 30 speed, and 500ac would certainly kill players, but I don't think anyone would consider it good design. I feel that ALiches and Elec Golems already fill the role of boss monster quite well, without being nearly so limiting.

Orbs of fire also basically require ring swapping, and amulet swapping is a good idea if you're worried about getting mutated, which is unfortunate, although they're certainly not the only offender in that regard.

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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 14:19

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

dowan wrote:I feel that ALiches and Elec Golems already fill the role of boss monster quite well, without being nearly so limiting.

We can have more than one "boss monster" for the boss level!

Orbs of fire also basically require ring swapping, and amulet swapping is a good idea if you're worried about getting mutated, which is unfortunate, although they're certainly not the only offender in that regard.

Well, exactly. If this is a problem, then huge swaths of Crawl need to be reevaluated.

Personally, I don't see any problem with OOFs. The whole "randomize orb element" mechanic is a cute idea, but I don't think it'll fly.

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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 14:29

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

If I were going to remove OOFS and replace them with something, I'd probably just go with pan lords. They make a fine boss monster, plus you can't exactly put together a kit for them, since their spell set is random.
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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 14:56

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

They already are a boss monster though, dowan. A monster that reliably appears after you've dealt with all the orbs of fire, even!

e: Moreover, I'm not sure how you'd ever prevent a "zot kit" entirely. If you remove/change OOF for that purpose, why is the rElec check necessary with golems? Why is the AC/EV check necessary with all the other monsters? Clarity, stasis, etc., etc.

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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 15:00

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

I believe "monster with unknown spells" is bad design, it requires spoilery knowledge of all possible spells: equip stasis for paralysis, clarity for confuse, rMut for malmutate, rElec for bolt of lightning, rC+ for glaciate, rF+ for fire storm, rN+ for agony etc.
I still have no idea if ALich can paralyze player, for example. It says something like "You resist with almost no effort" but it can be slow/confuse/paralysis/banishment etc.
It wasn't fun when I used finesse after a panlord entered my LoS 1 tile away and first thing it did was summoned a paralyzing eyeball which can be resisted by stasis only. And what would happened if I was with Trog and berserked instead? Unavoidable death? Bad design for sure.
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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 15:04

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

Sandman25 wrote:I believe "monster with unknown spells" is bad design, it requires spoilery knowledge of all possible spells: equip stasis for paralysis, clarity for confuse, rMut for malmutate, rElec for bolt of lightning, rC+ for glaciate, rF+ for fire storm, rN+ for agony etc.
I still have no idea if ALich can paralyze player, for example. It says something like "You resist with almost no effort" but it can be slow/confuse/paralysis/banishment etc.
It wasn't fun when I used finesse after a panlord entered my LoS 1 tile away and first thing it did was summoned a paralyzing eyeball which can be resisted by stasis only. And what would happened if I was with Trog and berserked instead? Unavoidable death? Bad design for sure.

I can't help but feel like the Crawl you desire, Sandman, is a Crawl that plays exactly like Final Fantasy Tactics, where between moves, you have to spend a significant amount of irl time comparing numbers and carefully selecting the choice that has the highest probability of succeeding. I can see the attraction in that -- in a game with permadeath, you want to make the best choice! -- but I can only imagine how much it would bring the game's flow to a (lol) crawl.

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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 15:08

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

archaeo wrote:I can't help but feel like the Crawl you desire, Sandman, is a Crawl that plays exactly like Final Fantasy Tactics, where between moves, you have to spend a significant amount of irl time comparing numbers and carefully selecting the choice that has the highest probability of succeeding. I can see the attraction in that -- in a game with permadeath, you want to make the best choice! -- but I can only imagine how much it would bring the game's flow to a (lol) crawl.


I think you missed my point. Getting killed or bad mutation without your fault is bad design (if you disagree, please consider that paralysis was removed from hell effects and mutations were never part of hell effects).

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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 15:24

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

archaeo wrote:They already are a boss monster though, dowan. A monster that reliably appears after you've dealt with all the orbs of fire, even!

e: Moreover, I'm not sure how you'd ever prevent a "zot kit" entirely. If you remove/change OOF for that purpose, why is the rElec check necessary with golems? Why is the AC/EV check necessary with all the other monsters? Clarity, stasis, etc., etc.


Well rElec isn't necessary for elec golems, they're more dangerous without it, but it's not suicide to go into zot5 without it. It is suicide to go into zot5 without rF+, and you really, really want to have rF++.
AC/EV is necessary throughout the entire game. That's like saying having a way to attack enemies is part of the zot kit. Clarity/stasis/whatever are not necessary for any point in the game. rMut isn't strictly necessary for zot, although I hate going without it.

To be honest, although most people are picking on the OOFs reliance on fire damage, I have more of a problem with their resistances. Personally, I feel that an orb of chaos would be much more thematic for zot 5, and it could attack you with a variety of elemental bolts and clouds, with somewhat lowered damage, and it could have just 1 pip of each resistance. Then your zot kit starts to look a lot more like your rest of the game kit, plus you don't have to recycle pan lords.
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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 15:26

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

Sandman25 wrote:I think you missed my point. Getting killed or bad mutation without your fault is bad design (if you disagree, please consider that paralysis was removed from hell effects and mutations were never part of hell effects).

With due respect, I think I've got a handle on what you want from the game. You want perfect knowledge of every given game state, like one might have in a game of chess.

That said, I'll agree, insofar as random panlords and aliches are extremely dangerous and unpredictable enemies. I'm not sure that I'd call them "bad design," but I'm also not sure I have an excellent defense prepared; suffice it to say that I think what you discussed wasn't an "unavoidable death," especially given that you know that randlords and aliches are unpredictable and dangerous enemies that require a lot of care.

(Though admittedly, I think having plenty of MR like you'd want anyway is a fine defense against scary alich spells, and no character encountering panlords should be incapable of 1hko'ing giant eyeballs/fogging/blinking/summoning/etc.)

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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 15:30

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

Why do we need super-dangerous monster have elemental attack? To punish those players who were unlucky with their equipment? I mean the monster can deal 120+ damage without rX+ but it becomes only 60+ (or even 40+ for rElec) with rX+. Why can't we add a new "fireball" which is a spell with physical attack and cannot be dodged and new "bolt of fire" which is a spell with pure physical attack. Of course it means damage range should be reduced, nobody can survive "120+ physical damage 3 times in 2 turns" rate.

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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 15:35

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

archaeo wrote:With due respect, I think I've got a handle on what you want from the game. You want perfect knowledge of every given game state, like one might have in a game of chess.


I know why you think so, please try reading messages without looking at its author name (I know it's hard).

That said, I'll agree, insofar as random panlords and aliches are extremely dangerous and unpredictable enemies. I'm not sure that I'd call them "bad design," but I'm also not sure I have an excellent defense prepared; suffice it to say that I think what you discussed wasn't an "unavoidable death," especially given that you know that randlords and aliches are unpredictable and dangerous enemies that require a lot of care.


I am sure you realize it's possible to describe a situation where the only reason of unavoidable death will be "new player didn't know the monster can cast this spell (with optional 'and can deal that much damage')" so my point stands.

Edit. I was in that situation when I started playing crawl. Monsters didn't have spells listed in their description, it was awful. But at least it wasn't during orb run or in Zot 5.
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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 15:36

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

The main reason I can think of is that it does a fantastic job of killing the theoretical unspoiled player who walks into zot and sees his first OOF.
"Well, rF+ has been fine for the entire rest of the game, I'm sure it's fine here too", "Oops, I didn't build for and memorize one of the spells that can actually hurt this thing".

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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 15:48

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

Sandman25 wrote:I know why you think so, please try reading messages without looking at its author name (I know it's hard).

I apologize if I came across as unthinkingly responding to a username instead of your thesis.

I am sure you realize it's possible to describe a situation where the only reason of unavoidable death will be "new player didn't know the monster can cast this spell (with optional 'and can deal that much damage')" so my point stands.

At what point does this break down? How is this any different from encountering your first ettin? Or your first komodo dragon? A player that wants to play unspoiled is going to encounter many situations in crawl where the only way to learn about something is to die to something; otherwise, the game should tell you every monster's damage dice, and every monster's full stats, etc. Given that I know that's your ultimate goal w/r/t crawl development, I responded to that idea, rather than the specific case you were bringing up.

The game tells you, with both aliches and panlords, "this monster has mastered a vast number of powerful spells," or whatever the language is. Just like it tells you that orbs of fire are incredibly dangerous things that are literally made of fire, in the last area of the game. I think the context clues from all these situations provide a) plenty of warning for the unspoiled player while b) maintaining a bit of mystique and unpredictability in a genre famed for creating novel and unexpected situations.

I think the only thing I'd be in favor of is removing paralysis altogether and replacing it with petrify, if only because instantly being frozen is less interesting than having a turn or two to respond to it.

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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 16:03

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

archaeo wrote:At what point does this break down? How is this any different from encountering your first ettin? Or your first komodo dragon?


Those monsters can be killed with berserk, for example.
Assume that I am a new player playing a character with high MR and I have never been paralyzed (I always see 0% for paralysis in monster description). Now I enter Zot 5, create a killing hole, lure ALich to the hole and try to fight (berserk if you want). Good plan, right? ALich paralyses me, summons Cacodemon who destroys the walls, summons fiends/executioners etc. I am dead without my fault, I didn't know ALich can do all that, I played optimally and still died (pretend I am a Be who never found scroll of silence).

A player that wants to play unspoiled is going to encounter many situations in crawl where the only way to learn about something is to die to something.


And this is what I call bad design. Devs added spells, AC/EV/MR bars, hexes success to monster description, I think they recognize the problem.

The game tells you, with both aliches and panlords, "this monster has mastered a vast number of powerful spells," or whatever the language is. Just like it tells you that orbs of fire are incredibly dangerous things that are literally made of fire, in the last area of the game. I think the context clues from all these situations provide a) plenty of warning for the unspoiled player while b) maintaining a bit of mystique and unpredictability in a genre famed for creating novel and unexpected situations.

And what am I supposed to do vs hasted Ancient Lich on Zot 5 as unspoiled player? Equip rMut because it has Malmutate? Equip rF+++ because it deals more damage than OoF? Equip stasis because it has non-resistable Paralysis? Random tele because I am a Mu without rElec and it can create 15 Ball Lightnings?

I think the only thing I'd be in favor of is removing paralysis altogether and replacing it with petrify, if only because instantly being frozen is less interesting than having a turn or two to respond to it.

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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 16:08

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

dowan wrote:The main reason I can think of is that it does a fantastic job of killing the theoretical unspoiled player who walks into zot and sees his first OOF.
"Well, rF+ has been fine for the entire rest of the game, I'm sure it's fine here too", "Oops, I didn't build for and memorize one of the spells that can actually hurt this thing".


Right. And I really think this could be simply solved by clearly theming Zot5 (or at least the orb chamber) as firey, resisty, choasy stuff. Have golems spawn. Have lava pits. Have vaults with chaos clouds and nexoqecs. I don't mind the challenge of OoFs. I don't mind them requiring resistances; that's a common theme that players are used to by now. I mind them being just one monster on one level who surprises new players by adding a requirement to winning.

Cerebov's rF piercing isn't shocking to a new player. You fight through this unrand fire-themed castle and challenge it's fire god... Yeah, a couple extra pips of rF couldn't hurt. And while it's certainly true that OoF don't pierce rF, they deal a ridiculous amount more damage than nearly all fire-based casters to date. (Ancient liches CAN get close... but the closest fire-themed nonunique is golden dragons, with max damage of 81 on BoF, vs OoF with max damage of 120.)

Remember that the difference between rF+ and rF++ is 50% vs 33% damage. An OoF max damage with rF++ is the same as a Golden Dragon with rF+. The same proportions are going to hold roughly true if looking at average damage (which is less, but still somewhat relevant.) Orbs of fire essentially HAVE rF piercing through bunches-of-HD. The same sort of telegraphing that applies to Cerebov is probably equally desirable and effective for OoFs.

To amplify this with an anecdote... my first character to Zot:5 was an unstoppable MiBe, who had tabbed through multiple pan levels, the vaults, etc. I think I only had like 4 runes, and I decided to go for clearing the orb chamber before exploring extended. I died to a pair of OoFs because I had no clue how deadly they would be. Also because I didn't realize how good the AM brand is, and had abandoned it for a vorbal brand sucky randart, and because I was bold and decided to tab through two instead of separating them, and because I didn't buff up first, and being unable to cure stasis mutation because I'd spent my cure mutation potions playing roulette... yeah, totally avoidable death. But also a totally unexpected death, as the game cues gave me no clue I needed a ton of rF for this level, etc.

Edit: *buff up beyond berserk and a BiA cast or two. I was a Be after all. I KNOW how you deal with new tough looking monsters.
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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 16:14

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

Sandman, I just think the game needs a good balance between "perfectly known mechanics" and "completely reliant on out-of-game knowledge." We just disagree on what "bad design" is here, and that's ok; we'll have to agree to disagree. :)

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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 16:18

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

byrel wrote:You still need some source of rF++ and rMut (or a ridiculous number of potions.)

You don't really need rMut to fight them. It's nice, but hey, you're about to ascend, so a few mutations are not the end of the world.
Though I'm not sure what the best answer is... it's got to be better than this spoilery mess.

I'm kind of agnostic as to whether they're good monsters or not, or if there needs to be more elemental variety or whatever, but they aren't very spoilery. They do three things, all of which are pretty apparent in your first fight. Compare that to Ancient Liches, who can cast a huge number of spells at outrageous power.
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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 16:27

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

dpeg wrote:
dowan wrote:But are they good enemies? Do they make crawl a better game for their existence?
They kill players, so the answer is a resounding: YES!


I'm just reposting this quote to remind everyone posting in this thread that monsters are supposed to kill characters.

I'm pretty sure that getting killed the first time you see an alich or OoF is just fine by devs.
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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 16:42

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

Maybe there should be lesser orbs of fire that theoretical unspoiled player can encounter if only so that theoretical hexer (or some such) can prep for them? (And speaking of spoilers, V:5 is a much worse one and I hope no one dares removing the most fun fight ^^)

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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 16:52

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

there are high-MR/MR immune monsters before Zot

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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 16:58

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

Sar wrote:there are high-MR/MR immune monsters before Zot


Well, duh? Which ones in particular do you think foreshadow OoF's?
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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 17:01

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

Zwobot wrote:Maybe there should be lesser orbs of fire that theoretical unspoiled player can encounter

call the little ones "orbs of fire" and the big ones "great balls of fire." They can speak, but only say "GOODNESS GRACIOUS."
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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 17:09

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

I think I'd like OOF's better if they did a blinkbolt-style "Fireball" where they shot themselves at/through you.
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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 17:10

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

Zwobot wrote:Well, duh? Which ones in particular do you think foreshadow OoF's?

FWIW, I think there's no single monster that foreshadows the entire OOF package. You encounter malmuters, you encounter MR-immune enemies, you encounter nasty big-hitters, you encounter fire-using enemies. Ideally, there isn't a single "foreshadowing mini-OOF," but instead monsters at the end of the game encourage you to synthesize everything you've learned up to that point in order to deal with new situations.

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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 17:19

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

Sprucery wrote:
dpeg wrote:
dowan wrote:But are they good enemies? Do they make crawl a better game for their existence?
They kill players, so the answer is a resounding: YES!


I'm just reposting this quote to remind everyone posting in this thread that monsters are supposed to kill characters.

I'm pretty sure that getting killed the first time you see an alich or OoF is just fine by devs.


Sure, I don't think a single person in this thread has complained that OoFs kill characters, or that they're too hard. We all know how to deal with them. The complaint is that you have to have a specific plan for them outside what you've done for the rest of the game, which serves to make all characters who wish to win somewhat more similar than they would be without OoFs existing.

That's why I posted this in GDD instead of advice, because this is not an advice thread.

But since we're empty quoting:

dowan wrote:Just to clarify, I'm not saying "OOFs OP, plz nerf". I'm just questioning whether they add to or detract from crawl. Just because they kill players does not make them good design, that's an absurd standard, a monster with 10000 hp, 30 speed, and 500ac would certainly kill players, but I don't think anyone would consider it good design.

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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 17:48

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

Also OoF is the only dangerous monster in Zot5 who destroys Ozo Armour. It makes being unspoiled even more disappointing IMHO.

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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 17:56

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

draconian scorchers, red draconian professionals, liches (sometimes)

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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 17:56

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

Siegurt wrote:I think I'd like OOF's better if they did a blinkbolt-style "Fireball" where they shot themselves at/through you.

Yikes. This would be convenient for tough melee characters since it brings the OOF to you, but this would be a huge nerf to magical means of offense/defense (e.g. orb of destruction, summons) and to characters built around using speed to arrange for more favorable battle conditions.

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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 18:01

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

Sar wrote:draconian scorchers, red draconian professionals, liches (sometimes)


Are they dangerous in Zot5? Draconian scorchers has Bolt of Fire (3d25) and can attack in melee [15 (hit: plain)].
I know nothing about liches, I am too lazy to keep a list of their available spells so I pretend I am unspoiled player who cares about MR+++ only (I remember some dev provided a full list of ALich spells on the forum some time ago). I don't even know if I can be paralyzed with MR+++ :(
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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 18:38

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

dowan wrote:Sure, I don't think a single person in this thread has complained that OoFs kill characters, or that they're too hard.

My post was mainly inspired by:
Sandman25 wrote:Assume that I am a new player playing a character with high MR and I have never been paralyzed (I always see 0% for paralysis in monster description). Now I enter Zot 5, create a killing hole, lure ALich to the hole and try to fight (berserk if you want). Good plan, right? ALich paralyses me, summons Cacodemon who destroys the walls, summons fiends/executioners etc. I am dead without my fault, I didn't know ALich can do all that, I played optimally and still died (pretend I am a Be who never found scroll of silence).
[...]
And what am I supposed to do vs hasted Ancient Lich on Zot 5 as unspoiled player? Equip rMut because it has Malmutate? Equip rF+++ because it deals more damage than OoF? Equip stasis because it has non-resistable Paralysis? Random tele because I am a Mu without rElec and it can create 15 Ball Lightnings?

and
byrel wrote:To amplify this with an anecdote... my first character to Zot:5 was an unstoppable MiBe, who had tabbed through multiple pan levels, the vaults, etc. I think I only had like 4 runes, and I decided to go for clearing the orb chamber before exploring extended. I died to a pair of OoFs because I had no clue how deadly they would be. Also because I didn't realize how good the AM brand is, and had abandoned it for a vorbal brand sucky randart, and because I was bold and decided to tab through two instead of separating them, and because I didn't buff up first, and being unable to cure stasis mutation because I'd spent my cure mutation potions playing roulette... yeah, totally avoidable death. But also a totally unexpected death, as the game cues gave me no clue I needed a ton of rF for this level, etc.
DCSS: 97:...MfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}
FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWrNaAKBaFi{MiDeMfDe}{DrAKTrAMGhEnGnWz}
{PaBeDjFi}OgAKPaCAGnCjOgCKMfAEAtCKSpCjDEEE{HOSu
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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 18:43

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

@Sandman: yes, I feel like they are dangerous, you are free to disagree of course. Scorchers have hellfire btw (I don't remember which one). Also you can indeed be paralysed with MR+++, if it's a low end MR+++ (XL27 Hu + 1 MR item) it's actually pretty easy to fail your resist check.

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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 19:53

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

Sprucery wrote:
dowan wrote:Sure, I don't think a single person in this thread has complained that OoFs kill characters, or that they're too hard.

My post was mainly inspired by:
...
byrel wrote:To amplify this with an anecdote... my first character to Zot:5 was an unstoppable MiBe, who had tabbed (to an ignominious death)


Note I said in the same post:

byrel wrote: I don't mind the challenge of OoFs. I don't mind them requiring resistances...


You can't really take my 'I died to an OoF due to a combination of incautiousness and poor game foreshadowing' anecdote as complaining about orbs of fire when my entire post (last several posts really) have been suggesting theming Zot:5 around them and other boss threats.

Just to make myself abundantly clear: I WANT OoF in the game. They are one of two monsters in zot which generally pose a threat (the other being a-liches). This is GOOD. I WANT monsters that can kill me late-game. I WANT those monsters to MAKE me think about my kit, my options and my MORTALITY. I would like them to be harder and more likely to KILL me!

However, I also WANT that thinking about them to be driven by game design. I want to have approached them with the same awe and reverence Cerebov got the first time I entered his domain. I want that thinking to be informed. I want that information to come mostly from the setting of the game, not from random spoilers. I DON'T want those monsters to require special measures that are not telegraphed. I DON'T want to have to die or spoiler to learn what they can do to me.

I think that's something we can mostly all agree with. OoF killing people is good. OoF requiring spoilage (to whatever extent they do; that's something we can certainly disagree on) is not.

One reason I'm really sad to see Pan taken out of trunk is that I love the design of those levels. Sneaking through Gloorx Vloq's dark realm hiding from executioners, feeling the thrill of terror when two of them spot me. Slashing my way though hordes of fire-breathing, snarling demons to take the sword from Cerebov's fist. It's very satisfying design, and I hope those levels get used somewhere. And I really further hope that Zot:5 can be redesigned to somehow inspire that same level of awe and fear. That's all it needs. Once new players instinctively recoil from autoexploring the level from the level in fear, OoF will stop being a problem, but part of the solution.
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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 19:57

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

byrel wrote:One reason I'm really sad to see Pan taken out of trunk is that I love the design of those levels.

"Pan removal" is an old joke, there used to be (very briefly) a Forest-exclusive unique satyr called "Pan", he was removed, and then Forest was removed too. Traces of him persisted in code for some time, and every time they are deleted it's announced as "Pan removal".

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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 19:58

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

Oh. OK. I thought they were finally tired of the whole Pan-scumming thing and eliminated the branch... :oops:

Well, I'm glad I get to walk those halls once more.
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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 20:10

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

If every time an ancient lich is on the screen you think "that ancient lich might well do something terrifying that kills me, because I am not necessarily prepared to deal with what it might do", then the ancient lich is doing a good job of being a monster. IMO we need more monsters like that.

There are already too many monsters that one can render more or less entirely harmless with the right gear or spells or grinding, including most of the inhabitants of Zot. Of course, ancient liches fall into that camp too, thanks to things like silence and anti-magic weapons, but apparently they are nevertheless working for some players.

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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 20:17

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

Lasty wrote:If every time an ancient lich is on the screen you think "that ancient lich might well do something terrifying that kills me, because I am not necessarily prepared to deal with what it might do", then the ancient lich is doing a good job of being a monster. IMO we need more monsters like that.


Fighting completely unknown monster is stupid IMHO, I am not sure we need non-unique normal speed monsters which should be avoided at all cost. Or are we expected to learn from deaths this late in the game?
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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 20:22

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

Sandman25 wrote:Or are we expected to learn from deaths this late in the game?

Yes!
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FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWrNaAKBaFi{MiDeMfDe}{DrAKTrAMGhEnGnWz}
{PaBeDjFi}OgAKPaCAGnCjOgCKMfAEAtCKSpCjDEEE{HOSu
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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 20:25

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

Sprucery wrote:
Sandman25 wrote:Or are we expected to learn from deaths this late in the game?

Yes!


I guess you are right. Otherwise we would have some early unique with unknown spells.
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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 20:27

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

Sandman25 wrote:Or are we expected to learn from deaths this late in the game?

Do you think there's any point in Crawl where players shouldn't be expected to die, and learn from those deaths?

Re: unknown spells: things like Ogre Mages have effectively unknown spells. Honestly, I think they should go ahead and adopt the Lich spell mechanic because looking at a spell an omage casts, examining it in xv, and then saying "oh, this one can't banish me" is really silly.
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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 20:33

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

Sprucery wrote:
Sandman25 wrote:Or are we expected to learn from deaths this late in the game?

Yes!

Well... I'm all in favor of people learning from deaths. I think Sigmund killing unprepared adventurers is good for teaching them not to kill everything for instance. By and large, deaths should teach us about tactics, resource management and strategy.

But I'm not in favor of people learning about the game mechanics from deaths. There's a difference between (for extreme examples) dying from falling into a pit trap while wielding a cockatrice corpse teaching you not to walk around wielding a cockatrice corpse because there might be a pit trap disguised somewhere, and dying to a centaur because you tried walking across an open room towards him.

The first is the game failing to give you an opportunity to understand it's mechanics without dying. The second is the game allowing you to discover how bad your tactics are by dying.

Second = good. First = bad.

Honestly, I think they should go ahead and adopt the Lich spell mechanic because looking at a spell an omage casts, examining it in xv, and then saying "oh, this one can't banish me" is really silly.

Agreed. But perhaps listing all possible spells any OM could cast would work better. It doesn't reward grindy behavior, but still provides the important info.
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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 20:34

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

njvack wrote:
Sandman25 wrote:Or are we expected to learn from deaths this late in the game?

Do you think there's any point in Crawl where players shouldn't be expected to die, and learn from those deaths?

Re: unknown spells: things like Ogre Mages have effectively unknown spells. Honestly, I think they should go ahead and adopt the Lich spell mechanic because looking at a spell an omage casts, examining it in xv, and then saying "oh, this one can't banish me" is really silly.


Why is it silly? It's silly to use ring of MR instead of robustness because you cannot know without source diving that you cannot be banished anyway (due to already very high MR or due to monster not having Banish spell).

What should I learn from dying to a monster with unknown spells??? Use blink every time I see such monster?

I already described several times how I started using spoilers and savescumming to learn crawl (it was very user-unfriendly at that time), I cannot imagine spending 10+ hours on a game to die with unavoidable death and not quitting crawl after that. And yes, there would be many unavoidable deaths, more than 50% probably.

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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 20:39

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

Sandman25 wrote: I cannot imagine spending 10+ hours on a game to die with unavoidable death and not quitting crawl after that. And yes, there would be many unavoidable deaths, more than 50% probably.


While I broadly agree with your post, I have to say there's a certain insanity in roguelike players. Or an addiction maybe. I definitely suicided 10-hour characters in nethack.

Also 50% is probably too high unless you're already really good at roguelike mechanics as a new crawl player. Maybe 5-10%. Which is still absurd.
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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 20:41

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

Self-quote:

"What should I learn from dying to a monster with unknown spells??? Use blink every time I see such monster?"

It reminds me user guides when I am trying to learn new rogue-likes:
"Before reading unknown scrolls make sure you are standing at the door tile to a small room with no water in LoS and there are no allies nearby, also drop all good armour pieces on the floor".

Do we need to learn "ALich can have Banishment" from one death, "ALich can have Paralysis" from another death, "ALich can have Conjure Lignting Balls" from third etc. Really???

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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 20:43

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

byrel wrote:While I broadly agree with your post, I have to say there's a certain insanity in roguelike players. Or an addiction maybe. I definitely suicided 10-hour characters in nethack.


I was talking about situation when I was a new player and I wasn't addicted to crawl at all. It is easy to quit a new game after frustrating unavoidable deaths (I know it from experience with other games, not even roguelikes).

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Post Wednesday, 17th June 2015, 20:48

Re: Are OOFs good enemies?

Sandman25 wrote:Do we need to learn "ALich can have Banishment" from one death, "ALich can have Paralysis" from another death, "ALich can have Conjure Lignting Balls" from third etc. Really???


I'm probably fringing on circle-jerk at this point, but I'm actually pretty surprised anyone wants this in crawl. This is Nethack. Be spoiled or be dead. I mean, you CAN theoretically take notes on how you die each time, but it's going to be a singularly obnoxious trip discovering each monster than can finger of death you with swappable MR. Along with discovering the amulet duplication stuff, and dying on EXITTING the damn dungeon because you have a fake amulet. Learning that black dragons can insta kill you. That Medusa is just around that corner and will insta kill you. That Demogorgon can double sicken you and nearly insta kill you.

And on and on.

Do you really want to learn that this new demonspawn caster has hellfire by experiencing it? That the fiend has torment? etc. etc.
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